The Old Elite IV speculation thread

[turwhitt]

What's wrong with consoles? I have a PC and a console and I suspect I'm not the only one.

Nothing as such. But when a deep game is designed for console is is almost always going to be more dumbed-down than one designed for the PC. Name one deep, sandbox game for console.

Take the new Dragon Age, for example! A great, deep (ish) franchise turned into a moronic hack'n'slash by trying to cater for consoles.

 

[Geraldine]

Yes Turwhitt makes a good point here. I too love my Xboxes (both old and 360) and CD32 and for some games they are great, but for a game that could be as deep as Elite IV might be, the PC has to be the platform of choice.

Mind you, having just said all that I also have the CD32 version of Frontier and that is just great to play

Speaking of which, a tweaked CD32 version has been created, thanks to Spacegamer on the SSC for pointing it out, here is a link http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=57905. It's in ADF format and converts easily to Amiga Forever RP9 format too

 

[rgmarett]

Name one deep, sandbox game for console.

Red Dead Redemption - that's very deep, plus it's got all the multi-player aspects which are a pain in the neck to set-up on a PC.

Forza 3 - okay, not a sandbox game, but as deep as you want it (or as arcade-y as you want it).

Have you played the new Dragon Age game, I didn't think it was out until tomorrow (in the UK). From the reviews I've read it isn't a moronic hack'n'slash - the demo seemed fine. But it'll arrive tomorrow so I'll judge it personally and get my own point of view on it.

 

[turwhitt]

It's possible to get hold of the US version.

I'm surprised you don't think it's a hack'n'slash if you have played the demo. I mean, you can't even zoom out to a level where you'd be able to make any stretegic choices, even if it mattered whether you did (it doesn't - you just mash your attack buttons). Friendly fire is off so mages can blast away regardless of whether their mate is standing next to the target.
I short, tactical decisions have been removed in favour of unrealistic combat animations reminiscent of chinese martial arts films.

 

[Steve O B Have]

I personally think that the console thing is a moot argument - by the time E4 is out they're all going to be obsolete anyway. I suspect that any subsequent machines released in 10 years time will have blurred the line between the PC and the Console anyway.

The entire argument is at this stage redundant until Frontier either gives a realistic timeline or states it's intention otherwise.

 

[rgmarett]

That's a good point.

I read somewhere Microsoft have started advertising for job positions regarding their next generation console. The current XBox was in development for 2 years so we could see a new XBox around 2013. And I think you're right, it'll blur the lines between PC and console....even more...personally I don't see much difference. It's not like the old Sega MegaDrive days.

 

[bananascope]

i cant remember who said it now but it was a high up person at microsoft.... anyway i read sometime not long after kinect was released that they expect the currant xbox to last at least another 5-6 years before they consider a new one.
this pleases me as i remember being very annoyed when the 360 first came out and the original xbox stopped being supported almost instantly, i could afford to buy a 360 for about two and half year after it came out so im in no mood to be having to replace it all again in another couple of years.

 

[turwhitt]

i cant remember who said it now but it was a high up person at microsoft.... anyway i read sometime not long after kinect was released that they expect the currant xbox to last at least another 5-6 years before they consider a new one.
.

He would say that, cos he want's people to buy kinects rather than wait for a new X-box!

 

[DrBaggy]

Nothing as such. But when a deep game is designed for console is is almost always going to be more dumbed-down than one designed for the PC. Name one deep, sandbox game for console.

Take the new Dragon Age, for example! A great, deep (ish) franchise turned into a moronic hack'n'slash by trying to cater for consoles.

I agree: Civilisation 5 was dumbed down and made over-bright, completely ruined what had been my favourite series. The same applied to the Caesar series and Sim City.
Turwhitt do you mean Dragon Age 2? I'm just coming to the end of DA Origins and loving it: Baldurs Gate in 3d, and am just about to buy DA2, so really hope Bioware haven't sold out. Or maybe you meant Origins and I'm just too easily pleased by brilliant graphics and "adult" mods not available in those pixellated 2d days of BG?

 

[turwhitt]

I agree: Civilisation 5 was dumbed down and made over-bright, completely ruined what had been my favourite series. The same applied to the Caesar series and Sim City.
Turwhitt do you mean Dragon Age 2? I'm just coming to the end of DA Origins and loving it: Baldurs Gate in 3d, and am just about to buy DA2, so really hope Bioware haven't sold out. Or maybe you meant Origins and I'm just too easily pleased by brilliant graphics and "adult" mods not available in those pixellated 2d days of BG?

No, i love(d) DAO. Nothing wrong with graphics as long as the gameplay is there, and i also love the adult angle - this and The Witcher are my two favourite RPGs of the last few years, to give you some idea of my take on adult themes!

DA2 is a sad parody of DAO though. You can't even zoom out enough to see the area, friendly fire is off, it's all about mashing special moves and no need for any strategy.

If you are a Baldur's fan then you will either cry or swear when you see DA2. There are precious few tactical RPG franchises these days (well, none now!) so it's sad to see this one go. I will be stuck playing NWN2 another three times.

 

[DrBaggy]

No, i love(d) DAO. Nothing wrong with graphics as long as the gameplay is there, and i also love the adult angle - this and The Witcher are my two favourite RPGs of the last few years, to give you some idea of my take on adult themes!

DA2 is a sad parody of DAO though. You can't even zoom out enough to see the area, friendly fire is off, it's all about mashing special moves and no need for any strategy.

If you are a Baldur's fan then you will either cry or swear when you see DA2. There are precious few tactical RPG franchises these days (well, none now!) so it's sad to see this one go. I will be stuck playing NWN2 another three times.

Thanks Turwhitt, that's really sad to hear as Bioware seems to have been a beacon of quality, I had really hoped they would keep that going. Baldur's Gate and Elite were the two games that had me up till the early (sometimes not so early!) hours. Are we just reaching a point where everything has to appeal to the masses? Maybe video gaming will become like films, with financial drivers pushing mainstream teen pap and the odd adult quality production made with passion.

Or Maybe I'm just getting old and grumpy!

 

[turwhitt]

Are we just reaching a point where everything has to appeal to the masses?

That is the worry. The slight ray of light is that DA2 is doing badly as far as reviews are concerned. Industry reviews on average put it significantly lower than DAO and user reviews are putting it at 3 out of 10! (metacritic)
Hopefully this will be reflected in sales and they will be conscientious enough to admit they were wrong and continue the franchise the way it started.

 

[rgmarett]

8.5/10 on IGN (UK) http://uk.xbox360.ign.com/articles/115/1154229p1.html
9.2/10 on GameTrailers (UK) http://www.gametrailers.com/video/review-dragon-age/711452

8.1 (18 Ratings) Press Score
7.3 (334 Ratings) Reader Score (Taken from IGN.com)

Bioware have taken all the bad points of Origins and thrown them away. They've made a better game. If you're playing on PC you can zoom out until your heart's content. If you're playing on console they've made the game more interactive (or a moronic hack 'n slash ) by getting you to actually slash your sword rather than pressing A just once on an enemy and letting the computer do all the attacking (which to me sounds more dumbed down).

But don't take my word for it. Download the demo. Just don't let one opinion form your judgement - not that Turwhitt is wrong, there are just other points of view to consider.

 

[SuperG]

IMO Sandbox does not matter in PC vs console gaming. There are con 'n pro's but not relevant to this matter.

What matters are the default controlers on each platform. That the most important difference.
Because any platform can have almost all type controler, but aren't default, mainstream in use.

For each controler, specific game mechanics are more doable and preferable.
And with that specific types of gameplay in each genre are prefered on specific platform.
It's the analog stick on the gamepad vs the mouse
And the buttons on the gamepad vs keyb.

The difference is this the gamepad has enough buttons on easy to acces and easier to memorise place. Most of the time gamepad has enough buttons.
So it's pro console Con PC. Unless you have a use for 20 upt to 100+ key's
But the analog stick is a crude way to handle menu and aiming so work best with simplefied menu's and need some aim assist.

Mouse offers a highe fidelity of accuracy wich feels natural, wich give you fast axcessable complex menu and do it your self fast accuracy.

This has influence on what for game mechanics dev can aim for.
Console higly action rish gameplay with aimassist. Just spray in the right direction and with some help you get it with not much depth options.
For PC much more complex menu are doable and managing gameplay is more possible, so much more depth is possible due to richer menu's. Planning tactics and many option get possible more slow pace is handy because for management gameplay you need to have the time to do it.

It's a different gameplay style within genres.

I call these games, PC specific games. As PC games can handle consolised gamemechanics also better. But you need to learn the keylayout. A gamepad is more easy to memorize. because of the ergonomic layout.

But a game with such real depth need to be adopted to console. avoiding complex menu and extended option within game.
So if PC is main target and a port doesn't do there gamepad homw work. You get a bad console port where a gamepad can be stress full because of the unnatural feel of aiming with that little stick.
And a main console target port to PC. You get console menu with gamepad reference with no right mapping to keyb and you have aimassist wich you don't need. And you miss those depth option other native PC titles have.


Off course they are console hardcore gamers who don't need aim assist and are fast and headshot accurate. In blackops I get own by those. I'am more a average gamer. So you loose and win some.

But that is some people grow up with gaming and play console FPS for ages and for them a gamepad feels natural. But they forget they adopted for years to get at that level of handling.
While noobs on PC naturaly use the accuracy of the mouse and also there you got even faster gamers.

But there are games that offer Console vs PC online microsoft platform Xbox360 vs Win PC.
The dev needed to balanse PC vs Console gamers bij cripling PC gamers and give console some assist.
And these are average experience alpfa and beta game testers.

And I am for a few years a online console gamer on PS3.
But for many more years also still a PC gamer altho singleplayer.

Red dead redemtion PS3. O yes I like that game, much hunting. Sandbox on PS3. But a very good example of Aimassist. Black ops to.

DX11 titles Stalker CoP and Metro2033 on PC like those to.

extensive depth games I know of within the Elite genre wich I don't know.
Are a little bit Derek smart battleship series the title Universal Combat.
And I did play a lot X2 to X3 games from egosoft.

Well the last is a complex game with a lot of depth and bad clumpsy menu wich could be done a lot better.

Also many PC native RTS games are a good example wich are more resource management games.
Wich I'am not good in. Not a multi tasker gamer.

So if Elite is a game with enough depth a gamepad is not suitable. If they go console they must revise the game formula to fit console gamepad. Wich is make the game accesable by gamepad wich means tumb down to much complex menu's for gamepad down. If lucky the can revision the user interface to fit gamepad better but keep all the option split over enough menu.

 

[rgmarett]

If you like menus so much why don't you go and play Excel Just kidding

I do agree with what you've said. RTS's are completely useless on consoles, I bought C&C when it came out on XBox360 and it's just impossible to work. That said, the game isn't dumbed down. It just doesn't work, and there is a difference.

I have a PC and a console and happily spend hours in front of the PC playing Flight Sim X. But I don't feel dumber when I switch the console on.

Your argument is right SuperG, modifications need to be made when it comes to a control method (which Frontier did from day one, if you remember the Amiga was predominately a Joystick based machine (for games)).

But to say console owners are dumb and you need to dumb a game down is, well, ignorant really.

A really clever game would be to avoid menus altogether...goodness knows how to do that, but I work in the ad industry not the gaming industry so I don't need to know

 

[Steve O B Have]

A really clever game would be to avoid menus altogether...goodness knows how to do that, but I work in the ad industry not the gaming industry so I don't need to know

Ad industry huh? Am I allowed to ask who for? Based around PPC stuff like Google Adwords and the like? The reason I ask is that my wife used to work for an advertising company that had a branch in Exeter...

 

[rgmarett]

I started my own agency last June (marettcreative (vain aren't I) but I've been working in the industry for over 10 years now. Mainly on TV commercials and some print work. I work with small to medium sized companies, well, saying that, we just completed a project for BP - they're pretty big, but yep, normally work with smaller companies (and make them big - that's the plan)

I've worked with Bray Leino before, they're based down here in the westcountry (but I don't think they have a branch in Exeter thinking about it).

 

[SuperG]

If you like menus so much why don't you go and play Excel Just kidding

Well played X3 series and use excel for it to compare and choose what next ship to buy. But it had nothing to do with menu.

So it makes sense.
Spend a lot of time in excel while playin X3:TC.

I had 3 PC on a row now just 2 and a iPad. And even printed out those Excel sheets and edit it a lot. Waste a lot of paper with it.

 

[Steve O B Have]

I started my own agency last June (marettcreative (vain aren't I) but I've been working in the industry for over 10 years now. Mainly on TV commercials and some print work. I work with small to medium sized companies, well, saying that, we just completed a project for BP - they're pretty big, but yep, normally work with smaller companies (and make them big - that's the plan)

I've worked with Bray Leino before, they're based down here in the westcountry (but I don't think they have a branch in Exeter thinking about it).

Ah sounds cool congrats with the BP project!

 

[deej]

Interesting...

I wonder if this has anything to do with n0tch (the creator of MineCraft) announcing a few weeks back that his next project is a space trading game like elite.