The Star Citizen Thread v 3.0

[Voivod]

I've played both. Good luck expecting people to take you seriously when you compare a text based game, and a SP wargame to an MMO developed in Cryengine.

Then maybe you shouldn't generalize with your exaggerated descriptions?

1 year. Less than 200 people at this time last year. Less than 30 at this time 2 years ago, but you being the knowledgeable game developer that you are take creating a company, building the team, organizing all the work, planning the logistics, and all the other things that go way above my head into account, don't you?

How many years have to pass before you guys stop using the "but this time last year" excuse?
What starting point in SC development would satisfy you as a comparison to other company's game development?

Also, they've produced way more than AC. AC is just all that we have to play right now. No where does it state that we'll be able to play all the content as it's developed, but sure, please do throw more irrelevant numbers and names at me.

They aren't irrelevant. SC is famed for it's "open development" and "playing the game" before other games allowed you to.
I was just stating that after 2-3 years in development we have AC to play with and it's lackluster to say the least.

Note: This is why I mentioned following the development. There are literally hundreds of hours of content showing off what they've created. From numerous page long articles of lore published weekly. To some 3 or 4 weekly podcasts, and 2 weekly 20 min shows that detail the development, and explain the progress that's being made. A monthly magazine which literally breaks apart the development of various assets and ideas, and lets us see how things are made. A frequently visited "ask a developer" forums section, and even a CIG sponsored competition that let us follow multiple teams in their development of a ship. If you actually followed the development, especially in these past 5 or 6 months, since it started ramping up with all the studios, production pipelines, and other foundations in place, you'd know just how ridiculous it is to state "~300 people working for how many years and have produced AC?".

Did I mention they had something like a 10 hour long panel a month ago in which they discussed just about everything?

Oh they sure can talk and produce videos. I'll give you that.
I got tired of their "oh what we are doing is amazing and has never been done before" videos a long time a go.
I bought the game and would love to actually play it.
What I have played isn't impressive, what I've seen them showcase isn't impressive.
What I like is some of the art and the theory behind it.

I'm constantly waiting for them to impress me with the gameplay they like talking about. Apparently 2015 is the year to do that.
Let's see.

AC is an alpha. AC only represents a fraction of the final product. Elite is the final product.

Are you saying that a game like Elite or SC are final products once they are released? Both lead developers have said the exact opposite.
You started comparing Elite to SC and I offered you what each company had produced in more or less the same development time (granted CIG had to build their company from scratch, granted they have a boatload of more money though).

A single, multi crew, Star Citizen ship also has more poly's than half the ships in ED, and the game is being designed to a completely different level of complexity.

One game strives to use as many polys as possible, the other one doesn't, what exactly is the meaning of your comparison?
Also using a lot of polys isn't hard. Using less and making it look as though it doesn't is.

Not to mention that ED was being planned for the better half of decade, used an in house engine that was being worked on for years, and launched with half it's ships missing. I won't even bother to go into detail explaining that most of the games activities boil down to repeating 4 simplistic actions for all eternity.

It wasn't missing half it's ships and what does one man thinking of the features he'd like to add to the game have to do with it? Wasn't CR thinking for years on what he would like to include in his dream game?
Also those simple activities kept me entertained for months on end... mostly because of the feeling I got from Elite.
Granted I'm tired of it now, but I usually get tired of games after a while.

Of course, it's foolish to try and quantify game development with money and dev team size's, so this is all entirely pointless. I'm expecting you'll use this to prove that the game will never launch or something, but whatever.

Of course it will launch.
Development IS slow however and the game will never live up to the hype.
That doesn't mean it won't be fun to play but I've almost convinced myself it's going to be a let down.
Nothing I've played or seen other than a few ships and some art has excited me, contrary to the "design document" of what they want to game to be.
Maybe in 3-4 years.

Fair enough. I do agree that they need to better manage AC as to not set a precedent for other companies. Although, a 7 hour 'grind' for 168 hours of in-game (see: not real time) play time, for something that others have paid $110 for, can hardly be called unfair.

For a game that went the crowdfunding path to avoid doing things like this it is unfair.
I'm astonished that you thought Elite with it's 150$ for beta/game/all expansions access is a worse scheme.
How can you think that?

I've actually written a rather long post about this directed at CR himself, as he took to the forums to discuss this topic, and he latter addressed some of the concerns that myself, along with many others, raised. I'm still rather uncomfortable with the system, but CIG has promised that they'll further examine it.

Of course they have. Just like the flight mechanics were so good people thought they were bad
I'm sorry for my caustic-typing but I'm not as a constructive fan as you are.

I honestly admire you for caring and trying to fix things you don't like.

All that really says, is that you've been bashing this game for 2 years now. That is, you've been doing it since it's inception, before there was any game to criticize. Seems like it's pretty irrelevant to you if there is, or isn't any content. You'll still needlessly direct your negativity towards it.

Well your diagnosis is kind of flawed since at some point I did actually believe in the game to actually buy it.
I would like to get a game I like playing, out of it.. so it does matter to me if there is content.
I don't however feel like being a constructive part of it's development.
I'd rather they make the game they said they'd make and stray away from the ridiculous obsession with selling things.

Great. I don't think it would hurt you to wait in silence, since you don't seem to have anything nice to say,

It's comments like these that make me decide to sometimes care and reply to someone. As if anyone talking about SC must say something positive.

or have any actual criticisms that don't revolve around something you know nothing of (video game development, or SC as a whole).

How do you know I know nothing about either?
Did I state something that wasn't true?

I frequently partake in directing, and addressing real criticisms directed at CIG. There's really nothing reasonable you could say without actually taking a few hours to objectively figure out where the game is at, and where it's going.
I feel dirty simply bothering to discuss this with someone so misinformed and biased.

Your subtle ways of offending me are getting more numerous with every line of text of yours.
I've already mentioned that I'm biased, but I would love to hear your proof on how I am misinformed.

Would you also say that predicting a game will be the most influential game of all time,years before it's released, shows a slight bias as well?

 

[huzeeta]

Some cool gameplay footage made by rtmoose.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_10uTlXkOg

 

[1500]

Went back and re-read it. It's still rather unclear, but I do believe you're right. Still, the system is in development, so perhaps we'll see something better.

That aside, AC was originally designed to be a way to let backers test their ships early while getting feedback on them at the same time. It's not supposed to exist there for you to fly all the ships you don't want to pay for. The best stuff you describe isn't even implemented yet BTW, and it'll take something like 30 minutes to unlock a laser. Given that AC is a combat test, it's obvious combat ships will outperform non-combat ones. I don't imagine anyone will be screaming P2W when the PU beta kicks in and we can do things like mine and explore, but again, I do believe a better system should be implemented.

I do also understand that people endlessly complaining about a limited alpha being P2W is completely detrimental to development, as CIG is being forced to have to work around this with temporary systems as opposed to actually doing things that will make it into the final game (current implementation of REC would work fine in PU). So, what am I saying? Yes, it's a poor system, yes it would be nice to have something different, no the sky is not falling.

It's also important to note that most ship packages include anywhere from 5-15k UEC to spend. That's $15 worth of VD items. We also got a free 5000 UEC the day it launched. Going beyond that I've spent most of my UEC on vanity items from the VD, so it's not there only to buy weapons off. When VD launched 2 days after the hangar module, I had enough UEC to buy every single vanity item other than the crummy bobcat - such cash shop, wow.



tl;dr people buying items right now are really just hurting themselves, as all the VD items will be sold for cheap on launch.


Yes. I said it's gotten better. I've also read many of your posts. Just one earlier today. I've also seen them over the past year, both here and there.

Yes they did give us 5k UEC, but you are skipping over the fact that only covered the price of a single in game poster. No you didn't have enough UEC to buy every single vanity item, you are just lying now. Unless you some how magically had more UEC then anyone else. In fact there was such an outcry that CIG had to lower the prices of all the items in the store. You are also forgetting that a single gun can cost 4-16k UEC (and this is after the price cut). So that $125 Freelancer package gets you 5k UEC, or just enough to buy a single crappy weapon, oh ya that helps a lot, lol.

CIG created the P2W of their game, it was their choice and so no they don't get a pass on it. So now they have to work to remove the stigma of P2W, it was CIG that created it in the first place. No one forced them to put all content behind pay walls, no one forced them to create a cash shop before there was even an alpha, or their lol "pre-alpha". CIG back at the 17million mark stated that they would create a system to let people earn items by playing AC. So now you are saying that CIG has to be forced to keep their word? That does not bode well for a company that has to have the backers force them to keep their own word.

CIG making their alpha P2W is completely detrimental to its development, and putting all testing items behind a pay wall is detrimental to its development. No one forced CIG to put in leaderboards, in fact the backers asked CIG not to and to work on more important things, like ship handling, and control inputs, and network stability. Heck even saying that AC is a test bed is not really correct anymore as CIG have now released the PTU, another build that lets people test it before it launches to the AC.

edit: You know for someone that has attacked others for not following the game as much, you sure do get a lot of your facts wrong.

Edit_2: When the VD cash shop launched (over a year ago) the cheapest weapon was 8k UEC, it is now still the cheapest at 4k UEC.

 

[Vicis]

Why do you have to keep on personally attacking people you disagree with?

Neither were a personal attack. My discussion with you feels like one straight for a youtube comments section - thus the comment about feeling dirty (I'm not a big fan of youtube fights). 1500 is an immovable object when it comes to his opinions about SC, thus the frog comment.

I wrote out another response to you, but I then remembered where I was posting. The ED community is half the reason why I left this game, and half the reason as to why my opinion of it dropped so low in recent months.

I'll summarize my response with this; next time you say the word development, please cite a well established developer who agrees with your opinion.

Yes they did give us 5k UEC, but you are skipping over the fact that only covered the price of a single in game poster. No you didn't have enough UEC to buy every single vanity item, you are just lying now. Unless you some how magically had more UEC then anyone else. In fact there was such an outcry that CIG had to lower the prices of all the items in the store. You are also forgetting that a single gun can cost 4-16k UEC (and this is after the price cut). So that $125 Freelancer package gets you 5k UEC, or just enough to buy a single crappy weapon, oh ya that helps a lot, lol.

The posters were 2k at most, and there was only a handful of vanity items in the store at launch. I had 20k UEC. That single gun will be quickly earned in the PU, so you know, you can just wait.

CIG created the P2W of their game, it was their chose and so no they don't get a pass on it. So now they have to work to remove the stigma of P2W, it was CIG that created it in the first place. No one forced them to put all content behind pay walls, no one forced them to create a cash shop before there was even an alpha, or their lol "pre-alpha". CIG back at the 17million mark stated that they would create a system to let people earn items by playing AC. So now you are saying that CIG has to be forced to keep their word? That does not bode well for a company that has to have the backers force them to keep their own word.

CIG making their alpha P2W is completely detrimental to its development, and putting all testing items behind a pay wall is detrimental to its development. No one forced CIG to put in leaderboards, in fact the backers asked CIG not to and to work on more important things, like ship handling, and control inputs, and network stability. Heck even saying that AC is a test bed is not really correct anymore as CIG have now released the PTU, another build that lets people test it before it launches to the AC.

Oh god, the sky is falling again. Quick, run!

I somehow ended up on these forums again. I think I've overstayed my welcome.

edit: You know for someone that has attacked others for not following the game as much, you sure do get a lot of your facts wrong.

You know, for someone who has had nothing good to say about SC for the past year, on two separate forums nevertheless, you sure do dedicate a lot of your time to needlessly hating on it.

 

[Galactic Midden]

Let's keep things civil. No personal attacks, insults or inflammatory comments thanks

 

[Voivod]

Neither were a personal attack.

Yes they were.

I wrote out another response to you, but I then remembered where I was posting. The ED community is half the reason why I left this game, and half the reason as to why my opinion of it dropped so low in recent months.

You didn't actually write a response though did you? You simply thought you'd use another cliche angle to bash ED
If not, then please explain what exactly do you mean? That every poster in the ED community is the same?

Have you tried posting a critical opinion of SC on the SC forums? Would you like an example of the responses you get?
Would you say every single one of the posters over there is the same as well?

I'll summarize my response with this; next time you say the word development, please cite a well established developer who agrees with your opinion.

You mean exactly like what you haven't been doing?

I'd really appreciate it if you showed me what part of my ramblings was misinformed as you claimed.

 

[Vicis]

I'll see you guys in the PU in a year or two.

You didn't actually write a response though did you? You simply thought you'd use another cliche angle to bash ED
If not, then please explain what exactly do you mean? That every poster in the ED community is the same?

No, I wrote it out and decided not to finish after seeing 1500 post again, and remembering that last time I visited this forums, I decided it would be best if I stayed away from ED for another few years. Considering my response to almost every other point revolved around my earlier comment on citing a developer, I found it redundant in the first place.


I don't need any angles to bash ED with. I've played the game, and know full well what it is, and what this community is. Again, I'll see you in the PU.

Since you really insisted. Here:

What starting point in SC development would satisfy you as a comparison to other company's game development?


I was just stating that after 2-3 years in development we have AC to play with and it's lackluster to say the least.


You started comparing Elite to SC and I offered you what each company had produced in more or less the same development time




One game strives to use as many polys as possible, the other one doesn't, what exactly is the meaning of your comparison?
Also using a lot of polys isn't hard. Using less and making it look as though it doesn't is.

Development IS slow however and the game will never live up to the hype.

 

[Voivod]

I don't need any angles to bash ED with. I've played the game, and know full well what it is, and what this community is. Again, I'll see you in the PU.

It doesn't help a conversation if you avoid answering questions.
If you would like to continue talking about SC, please make the effort to answer the numerous questions or points I directed to you in my last few posts.

Since you really insisted. Here:

So you need me to quote established developers as proof of what I was saying in the comments you quoted?
Are you serious ?

 

[1500]

Neither were a personal attack. My discussion with you feels like one straight for a youtube comments section - thus the comment about feeling dirty (I'm not a big fan of youtube fights). 1500 is an immovable object when it comes to his opinions about SC, thus the frog comment.

I wrote out another response to you, but I then remembered where I was posting. The ED community is half the reason why I left this game, and half the reason as to why my opinion of it dropped so low in recent months.

I'll summarize my response with this; next time you say the word development, please cite a well established developer who agrees with your opinion.



The posters were 2k at most, and there was only a handful of vanity items in the store at launch. I had 20k UEC. That single gun will be quickly earned in the PU, so you know, you can just wait.



Oh god, the sky is falling again. Quick, run!

I somehow ended up on these forums again. I think I've overstayed my welcome.



Yes. I said people think it's gotten better, but hardly think it's amazing. I've also read many of your posts. Just one earlier today. I've also seen them over the past year, both here and there.

Ah the personal attacks.


The posters were 5k to start, but perhaps that is before you were following the game? So you purchased UEC (people started with at most 12k, 5k from downloading the hangar, 5k from the 17 million mark, and 2k from OB/VB rewards, edit: Forgot, kickstarter backers got another 1.5k (not that this applies to you)), good for you, no wonder you were able to purchase all vanity items. You also might want to start posting the real UEC values, and not your modified ones. I have had good things to say about SC, but sadly CIG does not give me more reasons, or heck give most people good reason to say good things. CIG talks a lot but says little, and sadly their own actions speak contrary to their own words.

I do like how you were unable to contradict anything I said, but instead resorted to personal attacks instead, and flaming, something the mods asked for posters not to do.

Edit: you are right people can wait, and mean while the P2W system will stay in place.

Edit:
Link to posters being 5k

http://www.gamespot.com/forums/pc-mac-discussion-1000004/star-citizen-hits-18-million-price-cuts-and-guns-a-29445405/

 

[Pomerlaw]

Some cool gameplay footage made by rtmoose.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_10uTlXkOg

It looks like he's not flying the ship, just turning around and shooting.

 

[1500]

It looks like he's not flying the ship, just turning around and shooting.

Sadly(unless you like that style) that is what AC combat is, its more of a FPS style game play, very little actually flying skill needed.

 

[Ripley]

Been some time I shared my thoughts on this forum (or any other for this matter) because i've been busy as hell! Buy Living Busy Dying Busy having FUN!

Star Citizen dogfighting is freaking AMAZINGLY FUN! Thank GOD for this arcade mode "small maps, hard-core frenetic dogfighting mode" !

It was exactly what I was needing to re-hype my gaming fun after grinding ED over and over. In fact, It is the perfect game to complement ED, has everything ED doesn't have, good or bad and its refreshing to play it , just hope I can get some fun out of slow ED pace after this! Fore sure it will be hard.

Recommend it 200% to anyone getting bored by gaming in general or as a mean to wait for ED meaningful updates, whenever they come.

Now I understand why they amassed such phonographic amounts of money, In less than a month I went from an Aurora (45$) basic pledge to add and Mustang Delta and a Freelancer DUR! EXPLORATION FTW!!

[video=youtube;vO7RxsZpcKc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vO7RxsZpcKc#t=20[/video]

Yeah... im a sucker for commercials!

I consider myself a Elite Citizen now!

 

[MPC]

Been some time I shared my thoughts on this forum (or any other for this matter) because i've been busy as hell! Buy Living Busy Dying Busy having FUN!

Star Citizen dogfighting is freaking AMAZINGLY FUN! Thank GOD for this arcade mode "small maps, hard-core frenetic dogfighting mode" !

It was exactly what I was needing to re-hype my gaming fun after grinding ED over and over. In fact, It is the perfect game to complement ED, has everything ED doesn't have, good or bad and its refreshing to play it , just hope I can get some fun out of slow ED pace after this! Fore sure it will be hard.

Recommend it 200% to anyone getting bored by gaming in general or as a mean to wait for ED meaningful updates, whenever they come.

Now I understand why they amassed such phonographic amounts of money, In less than a month I went from an Aurora (45$) basic pledge to add and Mustang Delta and a Freelancer DUR! EXPLORATION FTW!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vO7RxsZpcKc#t=20

Yeah... im a sucker for commercials!

I consider myself a Elite Citizen now!

Ya I also find it quite fun to play around with, I prefer the faster action to the endless turning cycles in classic plane games. I'm also a sucker for those commercials, but I've been able to limit my spending, I have not bought anything since 2012 I believe


Found this funny:

http://imgur.com/a/8SpC9

Edit:

ATV33 is out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7jfwd5q6mk

Just got a chance to watch it, good to hear that the Hull series of ships are coming soon. A to E if I heard him right. A being a bit bigger than an aurora, E I guess being a supertanker. Gonna be fun defending something like this:

from pirates

 

[Zyll Goliat]

Except that 99,9% of even the worst FPS games that I played in my life are more tactical and you need to use a bit of brain not just your time,money and reflexes....Ohh srry maybe I was wrong about that %,sure it could be a bit lower% but thats then including the games from the early '90 there you go....

 

[Helfix]

Anyway in other news, looks like the Freelancer style controls and controller balancing has started to finally explode on the forums. People now have hard data on stats and it seems mouse is 2x better than joystick at top 5% in AC. Not to mention huge disparity in k/d between mouse/joystick. No surprise there, people have brought up issues of Freelancer style controls before AC was even released and when it was people still put their concerns out which have been ignored. Now we are 8+ months since AC release with hard data that does not lie. CIG opened a can of worms balance wise when they introduced Freelancer style controls.

I'm just amazed that CIG is struggling with something as simple as controller balance :|

 

[huzeeta]

Sadly(unless you like that style) that is what AC combat is, its more of a FPS style game play, very little actually flying skill needed.

What are you talking about? I find rtmoose's strafing pretty impressive.

 

[1500]

What are you talking about? I find rtmoose's strafing pretty impressive.

You can strife in a FPS you know.


As I have said, and just take a look at the forums, and many others agree. AC is just about aiming your guns, not about flying your ship. So its a FPS style game play not a flight based game. There are many factors that contribute to this happening, the fast TTK, the over powered thrusters, the chaise the mouse arcade controls (freelancer style). AT this point AC is just about who has the most guns and the most power full ones at that, while the game takes skill its not flight skill but FPS skill that is important. Just watch any of the player streaming to see the FPS combat.

Edit: In other words its a vehicle based FPS, kind of like Hawken, nothing wrong with that, its just not a flight game.

[video=youtube;jy3weRw5UJY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jy3weRw5UJY[/video]

 

[Zyll Goliat]

Anyway in other news, looks like the Freelancer style controls and controller balancing has started to finally explode on the forums. People now have hard data on stats and it seems mouse is 2x better than joystick at top 5% in AC. Not to mention huge disparity in k/d between mouse/joystick. No surprise there, people have brought up issues of Freelancer style controls before AC was even released and when it was people still put their concerns out which have been ignored. Now we are 8+ months since AC release with hard data that does not lie. CIG opened a can of worms balance wise when they introduced Freelancer style controls.

I'm just amazed that CIG is struggling with something as simple as controller balance :|

Honestly in my case I can't said that the controls are such an issue it's just a empty&shalow flight mechanics(and game play over all) that's not giving me what so ever a pleasure of anything thats suppose to be a flight "sim" in space.Do you really think that game it's going to become anything better if you just nerfed a mouse controls and leave the FM as it is?And again I am not talking here about the final product of the game because I can't be sure how all it's going to fit at the end,maybe some miracle will happend and the SC going to become BDSSE....

 

[Helfix]

Honestly in my case I can't said that the controls are such an issue it's just a empty&shalow flight mechanics(and game play over all) that's not giving me what so ever a pleasure of anything thats suppose to be a flight "sim" in space.Do you really think that game it's going to become anything better if you just nerfed a mouse controls and leave the FM as it is?And again I am not talking here about the final product of the game because I can't be sure how all it's going to fit at the end,maybe some miracle will happend and the SC going to become BDSSE....

Oh no you are very right about the flight model, I feel about it pretty much the same as you do. I mean yeah, the PU is almost a year away from Alpha, but the SQ 42 missions are coming out soon and the flight model is still pretty raw, so makes me think if the PU Alpha and SQ 42 will be pushed back.

You can strife in a FPS you know.


As I have said, and just take a look at the forums, and many others agree. AC is just about aiming your guns, not about flying your ship. So its a FPS style game play not a flight based game. There are many factors that contribute to this happening, the fast TTK, the over powered thrusters, the chaise the mouse arcade controls (freelancer style). AT this point AC is just about who has the most guns and the most power full ones at that, while the game takes skill its not flight skill but FPS skill that is important. Just watch any of the player streaming to see the FPS combat.

Edit: In other words its a vehicle based FPS, kind of like Hawken, nothing wrong with that, its just not a flight game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jy3weRw5UJY

To be honest, I'm not sure who here would really say that the SC's flight model is "really complex/fun". I mean sure maybe if you just flew around and tried fancy things but the AC combat is quite a bit different than solo flying. In AC it basically comes down to who can aim better, who has more guns and finally who has more shields to soak up that damage. The entire game is oriented around twitch aiming instead of flight.

 

[Mr.Nowak]

SC has the most satisfying flying experience in all the flight games I played. Even in this early state the flight gets my heart pumping.