The Vive discussion Thread

cpy

Banned
cpy
I was going to buy CV1 as soon as it hit market but now, i will wait for CV1 vs Vive and buy the best. :D
Some people say OR DK2 is vomit comet compared to Vive.
 
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Mark D

M
I love my DK2 but it's great to see competition.

To my knowledge Oculus haven't made any recent major announcements but at this moment in time Valves Vive appears to me technically stronger. I like its inside-out 360 tracking, better screen resolution and hand controllers. Early reports suggest they combine to improve immersion.

It could have a few downsides too. In real homes the safety of moving around blind is at best dubious and like kinect do people have the space. Also seems logical dual screens would bump up the costs.

Will be interesting to see where Oculus go next?

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2015/...vive-opens-up-the-virtual-reality-experience/
 

[VR] Mad Mike

[VR] Mad Mike
KospY said:
Elite on the HoloLens ? I don't get it... It's not a virtual reality system, it's augmented reality...
We don't want to see our desk while playing elite. Please FD, don't loose time doing stupid things Microsoft told you :)
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I am *hoping* that it is the drivers which sort out most of the technical stuff and the game just has to translate the 3D information into the headset. That way it wont matter HOW the AR/VR device works (I am no coder so please excuse my ignorance / not getting the lingo correct)

but if the hardware drivers essentially do most of the leg work then would it not be trivial for the game to support any number of VR / AR devices?

This is the only way it could work imo if it is to succeed, otherwise we could technically need to buy a whole bag of HMDs to play all our games.

AR could be great for gaming... not everyone wants to be fully immersed in their game, but if they can have a "magic" 120 inch tv projected onto their lounge wall that could be great.

Going forward into the next decade these are surely going to merge anyway. I imagine something like react2light sunglasses. when they are clear then the glasses will work as AR. press a button and the lenses black up and then its more of a VR experience.
 
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jabokai

jabokai
Mad Mike said:
Going forward into the next decade these are surely going to merge anyway. I imagine something like react2light sunglasses. when they are clear then the glasses will work as AR. press a button and the lenses black up and then its more of a VR experience.
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CastAR already have something like that in the pipeline - http://technicalillusions.com/portfolio_page/arvr-clip-ons/ As much as I respect what castAR have done I kind of feel they're going to struggle now that VR and AR has been taken up by the likes of Facebook, Valve/HTC, Microsoft.
 

NoiseCrime

NoiseCrime
Mad Mike said:
I am *hoping* that it is the drivers which sort out most of the technical stuff and the game just has to translate the 3D information into the headset. That way it wont matter HOW the AR/VR device works (I am no coder so please excuse my ignorance / not getting the lingo correct)

but if the hardware drivers essentially do most of the leg work then would it not be trivial for the game to support any number of VR / AR devices?
Click to expand...

Whilst I agree that in the future we should move towards some unified VR API i'm unsure the same can be true for AR and certainly not between the two it just doesn't make sense. They are two very different technologies with very different and distinct uses. VR is completely immersive, placing you within a 3D world, whilst AR is much more about inserting 3D objects into the real world. There really isn't any meaningful cross-over and nothing that driver level stuff can help deal with.

This isn't to say that you can't have an E:D experience in AR, but it is most definitely not going to be the same experience that you currently see in game. If anything it will be like the difference you see between the game and the current E:D mobile app. So whilst you could in theory overlay E:D game over the real world it would not be very effective and misses the point of AR completely. It wouldn't be effective as it would literally be an overlay with you able to see the real world beyond, it misses the point because its not using the real world to define the experience.

I wouldn't be surprised to see some E:D content in Hololens, but it would be much more along the lines of a viewer to examine the ships, placed on top of a real world table in front of you. Alternatively something even cooler would be to be able to watch a replay of a battle happen above you table, though again its not really using the benefits of AR which is to have the 3D interact with the real world.

I do agree that at some point in the future VR and AR displays will converge, there simply isn't any reason not to as the hardware is similar in many ways and since both systems offer very different but equally as exciting and useful experiences. The only question is how it will be achieved. As Carmack discussed in his GDC talk, you can add cameras to provide the 'see-through' experience to VR, but it has problems that the camera's are not originating from your eyes but a distance in front of you. The best method is likely some form of polarized displays that can switch between translucent and opaque, that way AR can use embeded cameras, but they don't need to worry about where they originate from, since in AR you are projecting content onto the world, maths can solve the depth issue.
 
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jabokai

jabokai
cpy said:
Any comments on this?
http://www.guru3d.com/news-story/valve-mysteriously-solved-vr-motion-sickness-problem.html
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Yeah - I don't believe it! :D

I suspect it's a combination of things but mostly the fact that the demos/games have been carefully designed with VR front and centre from the very beginning. From what I've read they're making a big deal of the "walking around a room" aspect and this would definitely help the primary cause of my VR nausea. That is, playing first person shooter type games and realigning my in game view direction to be facing my real world desk/controller/OR camera direction. This is the one thing that really kills VR for me (not an issue in ED at all because I'm in a cockpit.) However, am I going to play FPS games spinning around in the real world? No I'm not, so I really don't think they've "cured VR sickness", they've just designed and demoed around it. IMHO, from what I've read so far.
 

tinimark

tinimark
I wonder how long the cable on this thing is?

To be able to move freely around a 15x15ft room I would say at least twice as long as the DK2 standard cable.
 

NoiseCrime

NoiseCrime
jabokai said:
Yeah - I don't believe it! :D

I suspect it's a combination of things but mostly the fact that the demos/games have been carefully designed with VR front and centre from the very beginning. From what I've read they're making a big deal of the "walking around a room" aspect and this would definitely help the primary cause of my VR nausea. That is, playing first person shooter type games and realigning my in game view direction to be facing my real world desk/controller/OR camera direction. This is the one thing that really kills VR for me (not an issue in ED at all because I'm in a cockpit.) However, am I going to play FPS games spinning around in the real world? No I'm not, so I really don't think they've "cured VR sickness", they've just designed and demoed around it. IMHO, from what I've read so far.
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I agree. For one thing there are several different types or maybe more precisely causes of motion sickness. There is the obvious disconnect if the display is slightly out of sync with you head movement (rotation and translation), there is probably issues with FOV (see - TotalBiscuit ;) ) and then there is the lack of physical motion when you are moving in game ( I equate that to car sickness). The last of those is what I suffer from and would assume the majority of others who get ill effects. Its fine in games like Elite as over the years i've gotten use to the environment moving around me as i'm sat down ( i.e. car travel). However games like HL2 I can last about 40-60 mins after which i'll feel somewhat ill, simply because your eyes are telling you that you are moving but your body is not. I do believe for some people walking sickness can be overcome through greater use, but I doubt it can ever be completely removed.

So yes the VIVE appears to have the first issue locked down, the second is probably good enough for nearly all and the third they are designing around by providing a complete freedom of physical movement within a confined (though reasonable) space. Of course while it works here I'm not sure it can ultimately work for say a normal FPS, since the games take place in larger areas than 15ft square. I am though intrigued by what game formats could be designed within this limitation.

The real 'cure' to walking sickness is going to be some form of treadmill, or maybe teleportation - hey I can dream ;)
 

Sanderson

Sanderson
Other than the obvious cost and GPU requirements, why isn't these VR ventures using two wide screens to alleviate the FOV issues? I just hate the horse blinder, scuba mask we get in current HMDs and their 100 or so FOV.
 

jabokai

jabokai
Sanderson said:
Other than the obvious cost and GPU requirements, why isn't these VR ventures using two wide screens to alleviate the FOV issues? I just hate the horse blinder, scuba mask we get in current HMDs and their 100 or so FOV.
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I think you answered it - cost and GPU requirements! ;) There are ways around it - using eye tracking you could just render in detail what the person was directly looking at. I was dubious about this but took a BF4 scene and heavily pixellated it at the outer edges - looking at the centre of the image, where the action was, I couldn't tell the difference. Probably a ways off though due to latency and maturity of that kind of hardware?
 

Sanderson

Sanderson
jabokai said:
I think you answered it - cost and GPU requirements! ;) There are ways around it - using eye tracking you could just render in detail what the person was directly looking at. I was dubious about this but took a BF4 scene and heavily pixellated it at the outer edges - looking at the centre of the image, where the action was, I couldn't tell the difference. Probably a ways off though due to latency and maturity of that kind of hardware?
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IDK. HTC/Valve are using two screens, seems it wouldn't be much of a stretch to use two 1920x1080 instead of 1200x1080, to me anyway.
 

cpy

Banned
cpy
jabokai said:
Yeah - I don't believe it! :D

I suspect it's a combination of things but mostly the fact that the demos/games have been carefully designed with VR front and centre from the very beginning. From what I've read they're making a big deal of the "walking around a room" aspect and this would definitely help the primary cause of my VR nausea. That is, playing first person shooter type games and realigning my in game view direction to be facing my real world desk/controller/OR camera direction. This is the one thing that really kills VR for me (not an issue in ED at all because I'm in a cockpit.) However, am I going to play FPS games spinning around in the real world? No I'm not, so I really don't think they've "cured VR sickness", they've just designed and demoed around it. IMHO, from what I've read so far.
Click to expand...

I'm guessing that they made demo that could NOT make anyone sick, just to fool people. After giving it some more though, how they could have less motion sickness with worse display quality than CB. I just don't know.
 

CMDR Holycow

CMDR Holycow
There will never be a TRUE fix for motion sickness using a VR headset. No matter what you do, your inner-ear will always be telling your brain you're sitting totally still, while your eyes tell your brain you are moving all over the place (this is what causes motion sickness). When the screen pauses while moving your head, is exactly the opposite, but causes motion sickness too.. and that is of course your inner ear is telling your brain you spun your head around, but your eyes tell your brain "no.. you were looking straight ahead". The reason we get very little motion sickness in E.D., is because we have stationary objects near us, while we virtually spin around in space (our cockpit dashboards). This is why E.D. (and all flying / driving sim type games) will always be the best experience in a VR headset.

Perfect frame rate or not, it will never be perfect because you're inner ear won't lie.
 
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Mark D

M
Cpt.America said:
There will never be a TRUE fix for motion sickness using a VR headset. No matter what you do, your inner-ear will always be telling your brain you're sitting totally still, while your eyes tell your brain you are moving all over the place (this is what causes motion sickness). When the screen pauses while moving your head, is exactly the opposite, but causes motion sickness too.. and that is of course your inner ear is telling your brain you spun your head around, but your eyes tell your brain "no.. you were looking straight ahead". The reason we get very little motion sickness in E.D., is because we have stationary objects near us, while we virtually spin around in space (our cockpit dashboards). This is why E.D. (and all flying / driving sim type games) will always be the best experience in a VR headset.

Perfect frame rate or not, it will never be perfect because you're inner ear won't lie.
Click to expand...

I agree with what you are saying - but are they not referring to Valve/Vive demo letting you physically walk around the room rather than press a button to move. So there isn't a conflict with your inner ear?
 
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