Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread [See new thread]

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I tried to contact the few Players I had around me with the same intention, but never received an answer :(

PS.
Am I correct in the assumption that Traders servicing different Stations will cause all Wing members having to
a) know/remember these Stations in the first place
b) dock at them in order to collect the Trade Dividends the others have produced for them ?

I think you only have to be in the system at the time the cargo carrier sells to get the dividend, not docked at the station.
 
Local chat seems to work to counter annoying people, too. In one of the warzones Cmdr [whatever] was trying to draw friendly fire, repeatedly. People starting calling him out on in local chat, which caused other cmdrs to pay close attention. After he did it some more times he was chased from the scene a number of times until he left.
 
I think the title of the thread misrepresents people who play in solo/group mode. I'm one of the Kickstarters who back E: D for the offline mode. I never wanted an Elite MMO. I have no interest in Open but I don't fear it either. It just doesn't float my boat. My experience of other MMO's is that I don't fit with the other people's way of playing at best, and at worst there's always some preying on newbies because (I assume) it's the only he that he can feel superior. Other players will say it adds spice because fighting AI ships is boring. Okay, fair enough. For me 99% of the computer games I've played over the past 30 years have all had AI opponents, it didn't bother me then and it doesn't bother me now. A perfect example of why I don't play MMOs is the person on these boards (and this thread) who keeps calling solo a 'a space trucker' simulator (sorry, I can't be bother to search for his/her name. It's just not important to enough). He belittles those who enjoy playing solo, just because, basically, there isn't enough traders for him to attack in Open mode. The question I ask myself is why would I want to share my gaming experience/free time with somebody like that. There's certainly no common ground between us. If I 'fear' anything, it's just that -MMOs are filled with people I have no common ground with.
 
Fear eh?

I fear the OP ( and indeed anyone else thinking of making yet another version of this overdone thread ) would benefit from doing a little more research into why group and solo players have chosen those modes over open.
 
so you start with this - "some of us would actually like the multiplayer element of this game to be balanced as a multiplayer game.." and im thinking, ok, some reason amongst the madness and then you deliver - "If I slave away in open to buy a PvP ship or a better.."

so its the self same argument, you feel that open is hard mode and solo is kindergarden mode.. 'i earned my wings.. you fly around in bubble wrap' just another badly veiled insult to solo players. thinking that solo players are just out to get combat ships quicker to hunt down and kill you in their shiny new FDL? is that not paranoia and envy? read the forums, most solo players dont give a rats behind about open mode, and there is 5500+ members in Mobius, and climbing, who just want to PVE, yep thats an E not a P, again they dont give a rats behind about open either. Dont get me wrong, i know there is a whole school of solo players that are as foolishly vocal about 'Open Mode is killing the game, out with the PVP crowd..' they are just as irrational as that other camp.
I don't think open is killing the game, I don't think solo players are just out to farm combat ships and open mode is harder than solo mode (albeit not by too much).

Funnily enough open is identical to solo, but with one more source of danger.

For Traders, as this is who your ire is directed, open mode only has increased difficulty in heavy player populated areas.. generally areas traders tend to avoid, unless they are trading rares or trading for community projects. the reason traders avoid built up areas is more down to profits than piracy. So just to be clear, there are no perceptable differences between a trader trading in a quite spot in open and a trader trading in solo, any trader worth their salt can easily boost away from a pirate, although some of the traders i know have given up a little jump range to carry armaments, and i qoute "pirates are the only players i have seen combat log, they dont expect a fight from a type 9, by the time they are mass locked its too late *queu cheesy grin..".
The game doesn't revolve entirely around traders by the way, I am not just talking about them. But for what it's worth "there is no perceptible difference except along rares routes etc." so basically... yeah, it's more difficult. Bounty hunting at nav beacons and the like is especially much more challenging in open.

As for combat logging I've seen maybe one person do it, and I think they may have crashed, so I don't think it's much of an issue at all. Then again I'm not really a pirate, I just happen to side with them in this debate in terms of balancing.

If a type 9 falls in the forrest does it still make a sound? i guess you need to be there to hear it, ergo, not seeing them isnt proof they arnt there.. you following any of this?

So the crux of your 'concern' and the area you feel needs balancing, is more about earnings and envy!? the disparity between trading and bounty hunting?
Who said anything about trading? Did you read my post? You seem to have put a lot of words in my mouth.

And yes, multiplayer games are typically competitive to some degree or another even when they are cooperative in nature.

and your 'assumption' that all traders must be in solo plotting to build an empire to overthrow open? The only traders that farm solo to buy ships to pvp.. are pvp players, and they arnt traders or solo players, and i'd happily bet real life money that they are in a huge minority [im a scotsman, and i dont gamble, so that isnt something i would say lightly] essentially you want solo closed or shut off, to protect you against a fraction of a fraction of a player mode, that has a player you may, or may not, come up agaisnt at some point in the future, who may happen to have a shiny FDL?! that is better than the ship you have.

and for the record, Trading is like an edurance sport! anyone can to put 1 foot in front of the other a few times every now and then, its real easy, but that doesnt make them an endurance runner. being able to sustain that action over long periods of time and distance does.. trading as a profession in this game is no different. and that doesnt matter what mode they play in.

Again, who said anything about trading? You seem to just have a preconceived image of the argument, and you overlay it on every post you reply to.

I don't give a rats about people playing in solo be they traders, bounty hunters or w/e but this is a multiplayer game and they are usually balanced to ensure a level playing field for all players. Currently to keep that playing field level requires logging on to solo to increase your credits/hour, which I think is a bit silly.

"The only traders that farm solo to buy ships to pvp.. are pvp players, and they arnt traders "

[im a scotsman, and i dont gamble, so that isnt something i would say lightly]

Was the irony of a using the "no true scotsman" argument immediately prior to professing to be a scotsman intentional? :D
 
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A perfect example of why I don't play MMOs is the person on these boards (and this thread) who keeps calling solo a 'a space trucker' simulator (sorry, I can't be bother to search for his/her name. It's just not important to enough). He belittles those who enjoy playing solo, just because, basically, there isn't enough traders for him to attack in Open mode. The question I ask myself is why would I want to share my gaming experience/free time with somebody like that. There's certainly no common ground between us. If I 'fear' anything, it's just that -MMOs are filled with people I have no common ground with.

And this +1

I believe that those who choose to name call solo/group players are (for the most part) a bunch of "Lucy's",,,,,,,,,,

Remember Lucy? "Come on Charlie Brown, show me how well you can kick the football",,,,,,,,, Now let's fast forward,,,,,,,,

"Come on Charlie Brown, try open mode. Its fun"

;)
 
So OP, i joined open play today just 4 you. Got rammed by an T6 (without shields) at station entrence while leaving. I rammed him to death. Hope you are lucky.
 
Heh!
mary-howitt-quote-will-you-walk-into-my-parlor-said-the-spider-to-the.jpg
 
Why this is beyond anyones comprehension is beyond me.

If someone's fun depend on ruining the game for me, then I'm happy he isn't having fun.

The more irony is that I suspect that if traders did not have the option of hiding in solo mode then they would not actually enjoy the game any less. They would probably have more fun, but human nature is to take the easy route so they do.

You assume too much. You like the kind of unannounced PvP that can result here, and project on other players your own preferences. Not everyone is like you; in fact, judging by the little publicly available data about where players prefer to play, my guess is that most players dislike this kind of PvP enough to leave games over it.

IMO FD should abandon solo mode, or at least stop mode swapping, and concentrate on getting the core gameplay balance right so that everyone can have an enjoyable and rewarding experience in open.

For many players, myself included, an "enjoyable and rewarding experience" has the hard, non-negotiable requirement of never, ever, being attacked by another player without first explicitly agreeing with it. And Frontier explicitly tailored their advertisement to attract this kind of player when they made clear from the start that players would be able to play solo, in groups, or in open, and freely switch between those without any kind of penalty.

Please explain exactly how is a solo game in any way preferable or superior to a 'properly balanced' multiplayer game.

Balanced for who? Different players have different preferences, so the best balance for each player is different.

Being able to determine when and how to meet other players allows each player to reach the optimal balance to maximize his fun, apart from a few exceptions that seem to only be able to have run by ruining the fun for others. A single 'properly balanced' multiplayer game mode will bring optimal enjoyment to the few for whom that mode was balanced, and will be less enjoyable, or perhaps even outright not worth playing, for the rest of the players.

After all, if a single balance that pleased everyone was even possible, those arena PvP games would have a single game mode each. The fact there are multiple modes is due to a single 'properly balanced' mode never being good for everyone.

All i'm saying here is that IMHO the con's of solo outweigh the pro's to the game as a whole.

Nope. That is only valid for you and those that think like you. For some players the existence of the solo mode is what actually makes the game worth playing, for example, and no con can ever offset that.

Not everyone thinks like you, and with ED, the feature set and advertisement seemed tailored to, for the most part, bring players that think differently from you, players that want full control over who they meet and when they meet them. People for whom, in many cases, a game with just one multiplayer mode where everyone is always free to attack others is worthless as entertainment.




I don't give a rats about people playing in solo be they traders, bounty hunters or w/e but this is a multiplayer game and they are usually balanced to ensure a level playing field for all players. Currently to keep that playing field level requires logging on to solo to increase your credits/hour, which I think is a bit silly.

It's kinda funny how those that want to bring players into open keep shooting down each other's arguments. Part of you keep saying that solo is easier, that it's not fair for those that stay in open if those in solo can get the same rewards with less risk/effort/time/whatever; part of you keep saying that player conflict in open is so rare that, on average, any increase in risk is minimal, mostly illusory, propaganda from those that want to bury the open mode, and that most solo players wouldn't even notice a difference.

So, which is it? :D




I wouldn't say the goal is to push people in any direction per say - isn't the idea of an open, dynamic universe appealing to you?

Actually, no. Or, at least, not if that dynamic element is provided by other players. I came due to the promise of an offline mode, not only I couldn't care less about the online stuff, I find the interference of other players in how the galaxy develops to be detrimental to my fun.

(Though, as I said in a previous post, if I'm being forced into having an always online connection, then I want to be able to change modes in a whim without having to create another character. I'm not going to be stuck with just the disadvantages of this badly thought online requirement without getting any of its advantages.)

Even if it does attract additional people, isn't that a good thing? And it's not hurting anyone in Solo. I can't see any reason not to implement a 10% bonus to people trading in open.

Why it's a bad idea:

- Whether it's a bonus to people in open or a penalty to those in solo is just a matter of point of view. And I guarantee you that most solo players will see it as an unjustified 10% penalty on them.

- You can be in open without the risk of seeing anyone by just tweaking your firewall or your router settings. Heck, for common broadband connections, you can make the matchmaking system not put you together with anyone else by simply starting a torrent (as it degrades the connection for realtime gaming down to unacceptable levels, something the matchmaking supposedly detects).

So, not only it would be ineffective, it would also irk solo players.
 
I'm one of the Kickstarters who back E: D for the offline mode. I never wanted an Elite MMO. I have no interest in Open but I don't fear it either. It just doesn't float my boat. My experience of other MMO's is that I don't fit with the other people's way of playing at best, and at worst there's always some preying on newbies because (I assume) it's the only he that he can feel superior. Other players will say it adds spice because fighting AI ships is boring. Okay, fair enough. For me 99% of the computer games I've played over the past 30 years have all had AI opponents, it didn't bother me then and it doesn't bother me now. A perfect example of why I don't play MMOs is the person on these boards who keeps calling solo a 'a space trucker' simulator (sorry, I can't be bother to search for his/her name. It's just not important to enough). He belittles those who enjoy playing solo, just because, basically, there isn't enough traders for him to attack in Open mode. The question I ask myself is why would I want to share my gaming experience/free time with somebody like that. There's certainly no common ground between us. If I 'fear' anything, it's just that - MMOs are filled with people I have no common ground with.
 
<snip>

And yes, multiplayer games are typically competitive to some degree or another even when they are cooperative in nature.

And there you might just have it. Elite isn't a competitive game, it's you, Commander Whoever, against the Galaxy / Universe, to 'blaze your own trail' in your ship(s) of choice. You don't 'win' this game by having more credits or kills than me, and I don't beat you to the non existent finishing line if I'm the one with more. :)

I suspect that FD put in a multiplayer mode because it's kind of expected in modern games.
 
Whilst you two are enjoying stripping apart that straw man argument: some of us would actually like the multiplayer element of this game to be balanced as a multiplayer game.

If I slave away in open to buy a PvP ship or a better ship for bounty hunting I would rather not go up against guys that farmed a shiny new FDL in solo, and then came to open for griefing purposes. I have no issues with solo mode, but open mode should be separate in terms of credits and assets.

Frankly how someone gets a new ship and pimps it out is none of your concern as is how YOU get your ride is none of anyone else's concern. You say you have no issue with solo but in fact you do. FD designed the game to be " Play however you want when you want" and that's the beauty of it. Really how would you even know that CMDR X got his FDL in open or group or solo and why(other than your personal angst) would it matter. Just have fun in the game and not expend energy worrying how other people play(other than seeing some sort of exploit).
 
In the original Elite you started as a trader and although you could pirate or bounty hunt it was completely meaningless even more so than ED, and yet running the gauntlet was quite fun.





Con's
Trading in solo thins the player base, breaks the game 'food chain' and could potentially wreak havoc with Pirates having no-one to pirate and bounty hunters having no-one to bounty hunt what happens then ?

So essentially what you are saying is that because you pirate types have chosen a life of crime that us traders/explorers should be forced to provide you with targets. Well...when you pay for our games then you might have a right to. Until then ...NO.
The level of risk in solo is exactly what traders want to face....not too give some open player pirate his/her giggles.
 
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It's kinda funny how those that want to bring players into open keep shooting down each other's arguments. Part of you keep saying that solo is easier, that it's not fair for those that stay in open if those in solo can get the same rewards with less risk/effort/time/whatever; part of you keep saying that player conflict in open is so rare that, on average, any increase in risk is minimal, mostly illusory, propaganda from those that want to bury the open mode, and that most solo players wouldn't even notice a difference.

So, which is it? :D
Given that I actually made both those points in the same post... ;)

Open isn't much harder, one of the main advantages (for non-traders) is that bounties will not be contested at NAV/RES sites. This allows you to farm much faster in the highly populated systems that tend to see more NPC targets coming through.

With trading, again you're unlikely to die even if you get interdicted but you may need to forgo cargo capacity in favour of defensive modules so this would cut into your cr/hour. Although personally I think the actual effect on trading would be zero, other than for traders doing the rare runs, I know that when I played at trading in open I didn't even bother with shields. I'm unsure how much value is in those rare routes so I'm not going to comment on how solo/open effects the cr/hour in that regard.

Either way, it is too late now and I cannot see FD changing it. However I'll still debate that it's a terrible concept until someone actually comes up with a well reasoned argument as to why, in an MMO, people should be able to "turn off" other players for farming purposes.

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Frankly how someone gets a new ship and pimps it out is none of your concern as is how YOU get your ride is none of anyone else's concern. You say you have no issue with solo but in fact you do. FD designed the game to be " Play however you want when you want" and that's the beauty of it. Really how would you even know that CMDR X got his FDL in open or group or solo and why(other than your personal angst) would it matter. Just have fun in the game and not expend energy worrying how other people play(other than seeing some sort of exploit).
It doesn't bother me that much to be honest, it's just a minor annoyance that somewhat breaks the game's realism.

I'd like ED to feel like a living, breathing universe. It's kind of hard when a large part of the trading/bounty hunting/mission running occurs in a separate mode that people switch between.
 
I'd like ED to feel like a living, breathing universe. It's kind of hard when a large part of the trading/bounty hunting/mission running occurs in a separate mode that people switch between.

Even in Open, with instance and matchmaking limits you will only ever see a fraction of the players anyway won't you?
 
Given that I actually made both those points in the same post... ;)

Open isn't much harder, one of the main advantages (for non-traders) is that bounties will not be contested at NAV/RES sites. This allows you to farm much faster in the highly populated systems that tend to see more NPC targets coming through.

With trading, again you're unlikely to die even if you get interdicted but you may need to forgo cargo capacity in favour of defensive modules so this would cut into your cr/hour. Although personally I think the actual effect on trading would be zero, other than for traders doing the rare runs, I know that when I played at trading in open I didn't even bother with shields. I'm unsure how much value is in those rare routes so I'm not going to comment on how solo/open effects the cr/hour in that regard.

Either way, it is too late now and I cannot see FD changing it. However I'll still debate that it's a terrible concept until someone actually comes up with a well reasoned argument as to why, in an MMO, people should be able to "turn off" other players for farming purposes.

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It doesn't bother me that much to be honest, it's just a minor annoyance that somewhat breaks the game's realism.

I'd like ED to feel like a living, breathing universe. It's kind of hard when a large part of the trading/bounty hunting/mission running occurs in a separate mode that people switch between.

I can see your point. I think it does bother you more than you'd admit otherwise you wouldn't keep railing against solo. However what you feel is really irrelevant to anyone but yourself. Removing solo or separating the modes so you get the sense of a "living, breathing universe" would basically eliminate choice for those who prefer solo and, well, seems selfish. Bottom line is that no matter what argument is being made against solo the fact remains that it is the mode that a lot of players prefer and will never play in open.
 
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Given that I actually made both those points in the same post... ;)

/SNIP This allows you to farm much faster in the highly populated systems that tend to see more NPC targets coming through.

However I'll still debate that it's a terrible concept until someone actually comes up with a well reasoned argument as to why, in an MMO, people should be able to "turn off" other players for farming purposes.

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This illustrates exactly why I won't play Open anymore. CMDRs aren't animals for other players to farm. I'll stick to NPCs, at least that way I know it's not malicious. Add in cheats and Open isn't at attractive as I'd hoped.
 
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