Arcade or Simulator game? The dangers of fan-service

[Pumpkin]

I'm also concerned about the way you're allowing players who REFUSED to do anything else than shooting, to still be able to get more powerful gear. Instead of validating their hostile and seemingly exclusive habit, why not promote diversity, via buffing (not only credits, fun too) other sources of earning, like Mining for instance ? "Sure, you can do many things in Elite, but meh... tedious, boring. Might as well just shoot your way through - it's fun and i's now the 2nd best source of income, give it a try!".

Again, I'm sorry if you're the shooting type, I have nothing against you personally, I'm concerned about the general state of the game. Overall balance. Population types in Open. Player behaviour and habits. And not you being able to afford a ship or not.

...

Please, do not succumb to the mesmerizing sing of some sirens that only sees their own and immediate interest. - consider the whole picture twice before releasing potent combat ships (which directly threatens all the player base, these are no exploration, passenger nor mining ships, these are combat)

Preliminary notes : Do you believe me if I tell you that I didn't found that mining was boring ?


Just a question : Don't you think that's a little bit too late to introduce "diversity" ?

You noticed it : most of the ships are combat ships but -let me be parochial, but not less than the "shooting type" ones- I'm interested by exploration. When I'm thinking about an exploration ship, I imagine a ship with a big jump capability of -let's say- 50 ly at least, with small cargo bay and mostly inadapted for combat (eq. to be able to fight at most small light fighters, as sidewinder or eagle) but with a good speed to have a chance to escape heavy fighters (explorers are bad preys for pirates, bounty hunter,... no goods to give, normally no bounty on their head,...). This ship doesn't exist and it has nearly no chance to exist, if my analyze of future ships releases is correct (freighters, passengers, and... combat !). I will add that heavily changing the specs of existing ships is the best way to have a lot of "flaming posts", so that's not a possible solution.

My greatest problem is that I'm some called "a casual gamer" : I have not much time to play (work, family,...). I'm not the only one in this case, according to the posts that I read. Evolve slowly doesn't afraid me, but my question is, in fact : evolve towards what ? And this question exists only because there's no real "diversity" in ED.

 

[CaptainKremmen]

I'd like to see a much greater difference between high and low security systems. If you're flying your T7 full of palladium through a low security system you should be constantly looking over your shoulder and worrying every time you see another ship on the radar.

Conversely, if you're a pirate and you decide to cash in on the rich pickings in a high security system you should know that you have a very limited time to get the job done because a very efficient security force is going to be on you quickly and that you will also get a bounty on your head that you won't be able to just pay off and that will stay with you for a long time if not until your death.

That way you make your choices. Traders who want to avoid trouble can do so at the expense of having to take a much more circuitous route to their destination, and in fact have to plot it manually because the route planner makes no judgement on the safety or otherwise of systems. If speed of profit is more important then they can go the short route and risk attack.

Pirates can choose to hunt for traders taking the risk or they can shoulder the risk themselves and attack in the high security systems and hope they can get in and out before the cops turn up.

Then the risk/reward balance would work for both traders and pirates.

My favourite ED topic. One hundred times this.

 

[Farmboy]

The biggest problem with repair costs before was they could easily outstrip the insurance cost of the ship. If it is cheaper to self destruct than to repair something is wrong. For an enjoyable game where the cost of death is real but not too high insurance costs can't be too steep so neither can repairs be

Indeed so afraid of hull damage costs we were that shields became paramount and scbs and running the moment your shield went down. Which in turn made ship armour an expensive decorative layer rather than a practical necessity.

I think we are now in a place where armour is a more realistic alternative to scb and shield boosters and this is better

If you want to increase the in game costs of repairs it could be made to either take time or be only available in hanger mode like outfitting but that's more for the purists who want more sim than action.

 

[Arubeto]

I'd like to see a much greater difference between high and low security systems. If you're flying your T7 full of palladium through a low security system you should be constantly looking over your shoulder and worrying every time you see another ship on the radar.

Conversely, if you're a pirate and you decide to cash in on the rich pickings in a high security system you should know that you have a very limited time to get the job done because a very efficient security force is going to be on you quickly and that you will also get a bounty on your head that you won't be able to just pay off and that will stay with you for a long time if not until your death.

That way you make your choices. Traders who want to avoid trouble can do so at the expense of having to take a much more circuitous route to their destination, and in fact have to plot it manually because the route planner makes no judgement on the safety or otherwise of systems. If speed of profit is more important then they can go the short route and risk attack.

Pirates can choose to hunt for traders taking the risk or they can shoulder the risk themselves and attack in the high security systems and hope they can get in and out before the cops turn up.

Then the risk/reward balance would work for both traders and pirates.

Yes, this please. Even though the difference in security between systems has become a little more meaningful in the last few updates, it's still not big enough to warrant any trade route concessions. That needs to change, it should be so significant that commanders needed always plan their routes more careful than just choosing "economic" or "fastest" routes.

Displaying the security level of your current system - and perhaps also that of the one you have marked as your next way-point - could go a long way to make bring it to the attention of more commanders and could therefore be fleshed out into some really relevant variable for decisions!

 

[PrometheusDarko]

I'm also concerned about the way you're allowing players who REFUSED to do anything else than shooting, to still be able to get more powerful gear. Instead of validating their hostile and seemingly exclusive habit, why not promote diversity, via buffing (not only credits, fun too) other sources of earning, like Mining for instance ? "Sure, you can do many things in Elite, but meh... tedious, boring. Might as well just shoot your way through - it's fun and i's now the 2nd best source of income, give it a try!".

Again, I'm sorry if you're the shooting type, I have nothing against you personally, I'm concerned about the general state of the game. Overall balance. Population types in Open. Player behaviour and habits. And not you being able to afford a ship or not.

Why shouldn't we Mercs and Bounty Hunters be allowed to make a living doing our jobs? Because I choose to protect traders from violence with violence I'm somehow not entitled to progress in the game? I should be doomed to forevermore wander the stars in a bloody Cobra?

They buffed Exploration payouts as well, do they not even get an honorable mention?The Devs are planning on continuing to make improvements, you know that, right? Just because mining didn't get a pass this time doesn't mean that it never will. As well, they buffed smuggling a bit by creating demand and buffing sale prices. But no, they improve combat and now the game's out of balance? What about when it was impossible to maintain a combat career past Cobra, Asp for the insanely talented, because repair prices literally crippled your income? No, that was perfectly balanced because it was "Just shooting things."

You know, somewhere along the line, people stopped treating games like, well, games. You know, those things you play for enjoyment? That thing you don't have to grind for a million hours, but is still challenging? We haven't quite hit a perfect balance yet, and I highly doubt we will anytime soon, but things are getting better, please, don't ruin it by demanding that everyone be forced to space truck. I don't wanna space truck. I refuse. Because after 8 hours dealing with logistics and numbers, the last thing I want to do when I step into a SPACE SHIP is worry about logistics and numbers.

 

[Slippstream]

The repair costs were just stopping people from having fun, having to call fights as soon as shields dropped, which made the whole thing exceptionally silly. Fuel costs made absolutely no sense since hydrogen is hydrogen no matter what's carrying it.

I agree with this statement wholeheartedly. Free hydrogen! :
The sun is a mass of incandescent gas A gigantic nuclear furnace Where hydrogen is built into helium At a temperature of millions of degrees

Yo ho, it's hot The sun is not A place where we could live But here on Earth there'd be no life Without the light it gives

We need its light We need its heat We need its energy Without the sun Without a doubt There'd be no you and me

The sun is a mass of incandescent gas A gigantic nuclear furnace Where hydrogen is built into helium At a temperature of millions of degrees

The sun is hot
It is so hot that everything on it is a gas Iron, copper, aluminum, and many others
The sun is large
If the sun were hollow, a million Earths could fit inside And yet, the sun is only a middle-sized star
The sun is far away
About ninety-three million miles away! And that's why it looks so small
And even when it's out of sight, the sun shines night and day

The sun gives heat The sun gives light The sunlight that we see The sunlight comes from our own sun's atomic energy

Scientists have found that the sun is a huge atom-smashing machine The heat and light of the sun come from the nuclear reactions of hydrogen, carbon, nitrogen, and helium

The sun is a mass of incandescent gas A gigantic nuclear furnace Where hydrogen is built into helium At a temperature of millions of degrees

Quoted From: TMBG

 

[Nonya]

Since the fuel is hydrogen-based and there are stars in abundance throughout the galaxy and ships can have fuel scoops, it's become less of an expensive commodity that has to be managed tightly in a budget when compared to anything else on the market. Not sure where this concern over low fuel costs comes from? It's not like dino-oil where there's a limited supply.

As to the point of "rewarding" people that don't like to do anything but "shooting" i.e. bounty hunting, it's kind of inherent in human nature.
As long as there are people who are willing to kill for money, there will be others who are willing to kill murderers and thieves for money as well.
The only way to stop a bag guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. (Hi, NRA!)

 

[Tusken]

I to like the OP would like the game to be more like a simulator.

I would like the game to be very hard, this from npc AI to indeed fuel, ammo and repair costs.

I would love it if you could only make a decant living if you choose your missions/targets carefully.

For me the costs where to low from the get go, let alone now.

However i know this is highly personal and apperantly not a popular way to play.

But perhaps eventualy when most ppl and FD are happy with the balance, they could make a hard mode.

I know nothing about programming but i think that wouldn't be to hard to implement.

Still like normal in open with everyone els but just higher fuel, ammo and repair cost plus perhaps a preset or even ajustible % of deduction on all credits earned.(for the wife and familie you left behind or a fictive charity)

Im sure very few ppl would have a problem with CMDRs flying about that have it harder then they do.

Obviously i would want to show of that i support my RP familie and have it generaly more difficult so a hard mode decal to go with that would be nice.

 

[Ideas Man]

It's an arcade game, not a sim.
The new low prices are right and good, and here's to many more improvements like this.
It's also good that you can earn a fortune not trading now, much better, well done FD for bringing in all the changes that many of us rightly predicted.
Here's to more!

 

[Tradesman]

Preliminary notes : I really enjoyed the 1.2 globally. Had some great time with wings. Love the tweaks to galaxy map, the debug camera, and a lot of things.

This post is not about profession earnings.

***
​

I am concerned about a ongoing trend i'm beginning to notice.

A lot of the most recent changes seem to go toward a more "arcadey" game, at the detriment of the simulation aspect.

Refuel costs have been reduced so hard they almost became a non-factor. Without an actual cost, the whole refuel function has basically been reduced to a "click" in station. Don't forget to click on the refuel button, and you're good to go.
The fuel scoop module has lost almost all relevance. If you're doing anything else than exploring, why would you bother fuel scooping? A shame really (imo), as it was such a cool mechanic !

Repair costs have been reduced with the same magnitude. Why? I mean, a reduction obviously allows for cheaper repairs and more combat actions, but why SO HARD? If you lower values that much, they become neglectable. Who would want that in a simulator? Or maybe we do, as I seem to be completely off with what I want / what the community wants, and more importantly, what FD does.

With "no" actual cost, it's more of a nuisance than anything else. Dam, must click on those things.

Should we get an auto-repair, auto-refuel option, just as we auto-refill H2O when we dock at stations? I really don't understand why those costs have been reduced to such insignificant levels. This feels very "arcadey" to me, and a step in the wrong direction (imo).


The Vulture price... a lot has been said. It's great that people get to have the brand new ship. A lot of immediate positivity. I'm concerned about the general dynamic of the game. But whatever, the point is it feels quite a rushed and demagogic decision ("20M, no wait, they don't like it, 5M!") which in itself is not reassuring when you think long-term ; and it also feels... "arcadey", again. Maintenance cost reduced to insignificant levels, new combat ship cost cut by 4 by popular request.

I'm also concerned about the way you're allowing players who REFUSED to do anything else than shooting, to still be able to get more powerful gear. Instead of validating their hostile and seemingly exclusive habit, why not promote diversity, via buffing (not only credits, fun too) other sources of earning, like Mining for instance ? "Sure, you can do many things in Elite, but meh... tedious, boring. Might as well just shoot your way through - it's fun and i's now the 2nd best source of income, give it a try!".

Again, I'm sorry if you're the shooting type, I have nothing against you personally, I'm concerned about the general state of the game. Overall balance. Population types in Open. Player behaviour and habits. And not you being able to afford a ship or not.

More so, I could very well be wrong. Its only a concern, not the holy book I'm typing here.

***
​

Well I could go on and on, I'll cut short :

Please, do not sacrifice the simulation aspect of the game on the altar of simplification. - do something about those maintenance costs

Please, do not succumb to the mesmerizing sing of some sirens that only sees their own and immediate interest. - consider the whole picture twice before releasing potent combat ships (which directly threatens all the player base, these are no exploration, passenger nor mining ships, these are combat)

Please, do not censor this thread or consider it "inflammatory", I'm simply expressing my concerned opinion about my current perceived direction of the game.

Totally agree. Fast turning into FreeSpace. If it goes any further towards arcade my sights will be set on SC.

 

[Ideas Man]

Totally agree. Fast turning into FreeSpace. If it goes any further towards arcade my sights will be set on SC.

Has the improvements to combat and rewards affected trading or exploration or something?
I don't understand.

 

[BishopC]

Well, I agree to the OP on most regards. They could make repairs and fuel free of charge, the prices right now are so low, it'll be just the same. The prices now are symbollic.

The thing I keep thinking is "Everyone and his mother wants to fight". Everyone sees a space computer game, they think star wars and pew pew. So it is a philosophical dichotomy here for the devs:
Do we make it super easy to do what they want (combat), or do we give incentives to do something different, since they will do the fighting anyway?
(And I know "There are players who want to trade/mine/explore", but like I said, everyone and his mother....)

 

[Ideas Man]

Well, I agree to the OP on most regards. They could make repairs and fuel free of charge, the prices right now are so low, it'll be just the same. The prices now are symbollic.

The thing I keep thinking is "Everyone and his mother wants to fight". Everyone sees a space computer game, they think star wars and pew pew. So it is a philosophical dichotomy here for the devs:
Do we make it super easy to do what they want (combat), or do we give incentives to do something different, since they will do the fighting anyway?
(And I know "There are players who want to trade/mine/explore", but like I said, everyone and his mother....)

It should be easy and fun, yes, it is a video game not a job lol.
Thankfully FD agree.

 

[Dominico]

Agreed op. Unfortunately forums are usually populated by unhappy people. Mostly someone gets blown up they come to whine about it. Someone gets fined they come to whine about the fine for carrying 500 slaves... (Doh!!) Someone cant play well and wants the biggest ship, they whine about it. Someone sees traders bragging about broken rares and routes and making millions.... yep you get it, they come here and whine about it.

This is standard in forums, and represents a tiny tiny proportion of usually confused or just bad players. The correct reaction is to explain the game and help them out. But instead FD decided these few whiners were the majority of players (they have access to numbers so maybe most players are numpties?) and they decided after this appraisal the game was far too hard and needed free money, no danger (except by very rare death).

Yeah for the players who picked up the game knowing it was hardcore its annoying as hell. Unfortunately I don't think things will change any time soon. Remember xbox is coming, and they also have a desire for easy to pick up and easy to complete games. So... I think things will continue to head in this direction of quick completion.

Problem is they will lose a lot of player base who want long term rewards and depth for the guys who want pew pew gimme battleship for sitting in res site pulees!! But I guess in the end because its not a subscription game it doesn't matter, they need new customers, and I have to admit, the majority of people will love the fast route to battleship. Then quit the game lol.

Its kind of like lowest common denominator. Ask 100 people do they like Mozart or One direction... that will answer your question.

 

[Marthenil]

A very important detail people seem to forget is that tedious=! hard.
And to an extend, time consuming =! hard either.
Challenge can and should be there. We shouldn't be killing loot pinatas. Tedious grinding in order to afford even setting foot out of the station on the other hand...

 

[Ideas Man]

Problem is they will lose a lot of player base who want long term rewards and depth for the guys who want pew pew gimme battleship for sitting in res site pulees!!

How has this affected what you were playing the game as before the good changes?

 

[shadragon]

But I am a bit confused why you think people who 'refuse to do anything else than shooting' should *not* get the ability to upgrade as they play?

Here's a quick Q for you. Where does the ability to shoot stuff and upgrade end? Python? FDL, Conda? What limit do you want to see imposed?

 

[Chazzie]

Preliminary notes : I really enjoyed the 1.2 globally. Had some great time with wings. Love the tweaks to galaxy map, the debug camera, and a lot of things.

This post is not about profession earnings.

***
​

I am concerned about a ongoing trend i'm beginning to notice.

A lot of the most recent changes seem to go toward a more "arcadey" game, at the detriment of the simulation aspect.

Refuel costs have been reduced so hard they almost became a non-factor. Without an actual cost, the whole refuel function has basically been reduced to a "click" in station. Don't forget to click on the refuel button, and you're good to go.
The fuel scoop module has lost almost all relevance. If you're doing anything else than exploring, why would you bother fuel scooping? A shame really (imo), as it was such a cool mechanic !

Repair costs have been reduced with the same magnitude. Why? I mean, a reduction obviously allows for cheaper repairs and more combat actions, but why SO HARD? If you lower values that much, they become neglectable. Who would want that in a simulator? Or maybe we do, as I seem to be completely off with what I want / what the community wants, and more importantly, what FD does.

With "no" actual cost, it's more of a nuisance than anything else. Dam, must click on those things.

Should we get an auto-repair, auto-refuel option, just as we auto-refill H2O when we dock at stations? I really don't understand why those costs have been reduced to such insignificant levels. This feels very "arcadey" to me, and a step in the wrong direction (imo).


The Vulture price... a lot has been said. It's great that people get to have the brand new ship. A lot of immediate positivity. I'm concerned about the general dynamic of the game. But whatever, the point is it feels quite a rushed and demagogic decision ("20M, no wait, they don't like it, 5M!") which in itself is not reassuring when you think long-term ; and it also feels... "arcadey", again. Maintenance cost reduced to insignificant levels, new combat ship cost cut by 4 by popular request.

I'm also concerned about the way you're allowing players who REFUSED to do anything else than shooting, to still be able to get more powerful gear. Instead of validating their hostile and seemingly exclusive habit, why not promote diversity, via buffing (not only credits, fun too) other sources of earning, like Mining for instance ? "Sure, you can do many things in Elite, but meh... tedious, boring. Might as well just shoot your way through - it's fun and i's now the 2nd best source of income, give it a try!".

Again, I'm sorry if you're the shooting type, I have nothing against you personally, I'm concerned about the general state of the game. Overall balance. Population types in Open. Player behaviour and habits. And not you being able to afford a ship or not.

More so, I could very well be wrong. Its only a concern, not the holy book I'm typing here.

***
​

Well I could go on and on, I'll cut short :

Please, do not sacrifice the simulation aspect of the game on the altar of simplification. - do something about those maintenance costs

Please, do not succumb to the mesmerizing sing of some sirens that only sees their own and immediate interest. - consider the whole picture twice before releasing potent combat ships (which directly threatens all the player base, these are no exploration, passenger nor mining ships, these are combat)

Please, do not censor this thread or consider it "inflammatory", I'm simply expressing my concerned opinion about my current perceived direction of the game.

Well said, these are my fears as well, especially the damage and fuel costs.
I had posted something similar recently - however you worded it much better, I do hope this is a 'balance' pass and would be revisited later, as at present, in my opinion - it's been simplified to much.

 

[shadragon]

The biggest problem with repair costs before was they could easily outstrip the insurance cost of the ship. If it is cheaper to self destruct than to repair something is wrong.

I hit black ice in my old Dodge while crossing a bridge. Swung around three times, hit a concrete divider and flew over it into the oncoming lane hitting a pickup truck. Insurance covered $1,600 which was what they said it was worth, repair bill was $4,000. I bought a new car instead. May not make sense, but it is realistic.

 

[Schpam]

What happens when players run out of things to spend their credits on and they simply start accumulating wealth to a point where the cost of anything and everything is trivial?


Obviously you don't want to grind players to death making them feel as though their efforts are producing stagnant results, but you don't want them to stop caring about the decisions they make in the game either.




It's fun to make credits, but when I return to station and profit 100,000 credits while only expending 1000 credits in fuel, ammo and repairs... its a trend that ends in me having a bank tally where eventually the need to go out and play to earn credits evaporates and with it the will to play the game if that is all there is too it. However, I'm also not insensitive to the feeling of futility if I profit only 10,000 credits because of the 100,000 I earned, I spend 90,000 on expenses.