I don't think any of the changes have dumbed things down. I think they have been fixing many of the problems with the game. As has been said already in this thread and many others, this has never been a true sim, it just had simmy aspects. For myself, I would like to see the game become much more sim like. But that has nothing to do with tedium or fuel prices or repair costs. If you want this game to be more challenging then you need to make the game more sim like. Turn off the arcade flight mode we presently use and make flight actually require some skill. Make take offs and landings more tough. Right now you can race into a space port like an F1 Racing car, smash into the landing pad and nothing happens to you. How about air traffic control? Requests for permission to leave, not just permission to land. How about having to monitor functions in your ship during flight. How about random malfunctions or breakdowns if you don't keep your ship fully repaired? How about some skill required in scanning for targets instead of targets just automatically popping up on your screen? How about dangerous zones due to environment, so you need different types of shields maybe for different environments? How about we make travelling to stations much more time consuming by jumping in further from stations? I could go on and on and I'm not even touching the surface of what a "study sim" does. This is not a simulation by any stretch of the word. That's not a slag in any means against ED, it's just a fact. But prices have nothing to do with whether something is sim-like or not. There have been lots of great changes in the last two updates. Now we just need to make flight more realistic between locations so you can't just walk away to make a sandwich or do what I'm doing right now, which is tabbing out of the game and posting in a forum while my ship sails along in cruise mode for 20 minutes. Just my opinion.
Arcade or Simulator game? The dangers of fan-service
- Thread starter Yank31
- Start date
Ok, try it. Take a T6 out with maxed shields and military composite hull, fill it with Palladium and fly around the Lave area. You will find out just how realistic your cosy little "jump and run" strategy is, when you try and outboost that interdicting Vulture, and your shields are down in a second flat
I have run around Lave for some considerable time in Open, and in a T6, and never been interdicted by a CMDR once with a hold full of rares. If I did get interdicted and it was that hard to survive, I'd switch my trading to Open. You're missing the overall point here, which is that traders really don't need to worry over much about hopped up combat ships. There are always ways for them to succeed at their (in my opinion tedious) mode of gameplay.
Agreed. The Vulture was my endgame ship, but now it feels pretty hollow flying about in it...
Way too much time, especially if you're exclusively a combat pilot. Factor in the inevitable deaths which will set you back too.
It's good, but it's not as good as the price change detractors like to think it is.
Realistically it's in the Asp price bracket because that's pretty much perfectly where it sits on the ability to drawback scale. The Vulture is to the Viper as the Asp is to the Cobra.
I'll agree with you there, there's too many cops getting all up in my business, taking my kills, but I resolve this by hunting in pirate systems. When they make the security system more granular we should see more diversity in different regions, as right now it's all or nothing (police state or total anarchy)
Repair costs were really just getting in the way, but I wouldn't argue if they went up a (small!) amount either, just so as not to completely devoid them of meaning.
nats
Banned
About fuel costs etc I have wondered before - why cant we sell our fuel on the community board as Hydrogen Fuel? That would at least make another use for solar scooping.
And do the refuelling costs at a station take the price of Hydrogen Fuel on the community board into account or not?
And do the refuelling costs at a station take the price of Hydrogen Fuel on the community board into account or not?
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Why would the Vulture by you end-game ship? There is no-end game. I would hope in a few months there will be another option for better combat ship in a progressively higher cost range. The problem was the gap. The ASP is nothing like the Vulture. It has taken me three months to afford the Vulture and I can't even outfit it yet and I still want an ASP for exploration. It will take me months more to outfit both of these ships and have insurance and maintenance covered. That is how it should be. Several months down the road I will move on to the next cool thing. Only traders can have all these toys early in the game. Others have to progress along a much more prolonged path of enjoyment, but we still want to get something new once in a while. I agree they could have brought something in between maybe but they didn't so this is what we have.
Ehm, you do realise that these changes reduce the grind and stat managing you accuse the 'arcade game crowd' force on the 'traditionalists'? Grinding in a tradeship for months is not 'more complex', or deep or whatever at all. It just takes more time. Giving people more options to get where they want to go is not 'dumbing down', it is the opposite. And is it really important to you to pretend that only those who agree with you 'appreciate the work of FD' and call the rest moaners? These moaners sure seem to appreciate what FD has done more than you...
Ah well, what would ED be without the elitists?
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That said, the Asp can also work as a credible gateway trader, and a superlative explorer- the Vulture is terrible for both of those roles. If it weren't significantly better at combat, given that this is all it can do, that would seem a little weird.
I agree to most of the points of the OP and many other here preferring deep and challenging game-play. For me it's a fundamental feature of Elite.
Of course it's only a game but the simulation aspect is very important for the atmosphere. I hope that Frontier is not simplifying the game because of some vocal people in this forum demanding a casual simple arcade game. And I also hope that this has nothing to do with going to the console market.
OK, enough with my paranoia. I doff my tin foil hat... ;-)
Of course it's only a game but the simulation aspect is very important for the atmosphere. I hope that Frontier is not simplifying the game because of some vocal people in this forum demanding a casual simple arcade game. And I also hope that this has nothing to do with going to the console market.
OK, enough with my paranoia. I doff my tin foil hat... ;-)
I agree the repair costs should increase with the expensiveness of a ship. I totally see how repairing a Phython, Clipper or FdL is a lot more expensive than a Viper / Cobra.
But it shouldn't be so expensive that some guys rather go crash their (empty) vessel because their insurance is lower than refueling / repair combined.
Fuel being more expensive the more expensive your ship is feels "arcade-ish" to me, Fuel should be a fixed price range, fluctuating depending on the system. Yes, your sidey might be relative expensive then. But why should 16 tons of fuel be more expensive for a Type9 than for a Viper? If they'd introduce different types, sure, fine. If there was premium and regular, fine too. Sell some traders / hunters fuel that is 50% more expensive that gives you a 5% speedboost and 15% jumprange extension.
The lower price of the Vulture seems right to me. I'd say it would still have been to expensive for what it is at 10M. See also the linked "analysis" earlier this thread.
Combat / Combat specific ships now are a lot more balanced in relation to trading. Since a Vulture / FdL / Imperial dropship aren't really going to replace roles of expensive allround (-able) ships, it's all good.
Game is only becoming "more dangerous" this way in the long run, being less in favor of those that traded a lot initially when it was kind of broken.
But it shouldn't be so expensive that some guys rather go crash their (empty) vessel because their insurance is lower than refueling / repair combined.
Fuel being more expensive the more expensive your ship is feels "arcade-ish" to me, Fuel should be a fixed price range, fluctuating depending on the system. Yes, your sidey might be relative expensive then. But why should 16 tons of fuel be more expensive for a Type9 than for a Viper? If they'd introduce different types, sure, fine. If there was premium and regular, fine too. Sell some traders / hunters fuel that is 50% more expensive that gives you a 5% speedboost and 15% jumprange extension.
The lower price of the Vulture seems right to me. I'd say it would still have been to expensive for what it is at 10M. See also the linked "analysis" earlier this thread.
Combat / Combat specific ships now are a lot more balanced in relation to trading. Since a Vulture / FdL / Imperial dropship aren't really going to replace roles of expensive allround (-able) ships, it's all good.
Game is only becoming "more dangerous" this way in the long run, being less in favor of those that traded a lot initially when it was kind of broken.
What about people who refuse to do anything but trade? They can get the most powerful equipment for combat without ever having to do combat or even mining, yet at greatly accelerated rates? Why did they make trading so arcade and casual, one has to wonder?
Seems to be the risk/reward balance for traders that needs work.
Traders in cargo ships with no escort should not expect to be able to operate in lawless space or war zones without taking a big risk. They should be in secure areas making reasonable but not enormous money.
Traders in combat capable ships should be able to make a lot more per tonne in lawless areas as they can fight or run from pirates, and take advantage of the fact bulk transports have to avoid these areas.
Pirates should be able to make good money if they are careful, but penalties for operating in civilised space should be severe.
To me, that is the basic premise of the Elite trade system. I'm not sure its quite there yet. Everything else needs to be built around that.
Traders in cargo ships with no escort should not expect to be able to operate in lawless space or war zones without taking a big risk. They should be in secure areas making reasonable but not enormous money.
Traders in combat capable ships should be able to make a lot more per tonne in lawless areas as they can fight or run from pirates, and take advantage of the fact bulk transports have to avoid these areas.
Pirates should be able to make good money if they are careful, but penalties for operating in civilised space should be severe.
To me, that is the basic premise of the Elite trade system. I'm not sure its quite there yet. Everything else needs to be built around that.
I have to admit, I am happy to put my trust into FD. As has been stated before it is their game, if I still enjoy it, I will play it.
As someone who can only dedicate a couple of hours in the evening maybe a 2 or 3 times a week I'm not sure I will ever see any of the mega multi milion ships for a long time. (Personally I find the whole Rares trade runs a bit of an exploit so have never gone chasing them. Just keep my eyes out for a good route and mix it up with Bounty Hunting.)
So seeing the high prices of the new ships I just shrugged my shoulders and carried on. I was pleased to hear they would reduce the prices but I do agree that the Vulture drop is extreme and appears Knee jerk which is not something that can be said for FD usually.
But at the same time what other combat ship was there after a 175K Viper? So maybe it is in it's rightful place after all.
With regards to Fuel and Repair costs it does feel a bit more formulaic now but maybe its good to have something to keep an eye on but not actually worry about.
Are FD dumbing ED down or making a better playing experience? I think only time will tell.
As someone who can only dedicate a couple of hours in the evening maybe a 2 or 3 times a week I'm not sure I will ever see any of the mega multi milion ships for a long time. (Personally I find the whole Rares trade runs a bit of an exploit so have never gone chasing them. Just keep my eyes out for a good route and mix it up with Bounty Hunting.)
So seeing the high prices of the new ships I just shrugged my shoulders and carried on. I was pleased to hear they would reduce the prices but I do agree that the Vulture drop is extreme and appears Knee jerk which is not something that can be said for FD usually.
But at the same time what other combat ship was there after a 175K Viper? So maybe it is in it's rightful place after all.
With regards to Fuel and Repair costs it does feel a bit more formulaic now but maybe its good to have something to keep an eye on but not actually worry about.
Are FD dumbing ED down or making a better playing experience? I think only time will tell.
I'd like to see a much greater difference between high and low security systems. If you're flying your T7 full of palladium through a low security system you should be constantly looking over your shoulder and worrying every time you see another ship on the radar.
Conversely, if you're a pirate and you decide to cash in on the rich pickings in a high security system you should know that you have a very limited time to get the job done because a very efficient security force is going to be on you quickly and that you will also get a bounty on your head that you won't be able to just pay off and that will stay with you for a long time if not until your death.
That way you make your choices. Traders who want to avoid trouble can do so at the expense of having to take a much more circuitous route to their destination, and in fact have to plot it manually because the route planner makes no judgement on the safety or otherwise of systems. If speed of profit is more important then they can go the short route and risk attack.
Pirates can choose to hunt for traders taking the risk or they can shoulder the risk themselves and attack in the high security systems and hope they can get in and out before the cops turn up.
Then the risk/reward balance would work for both traders and pirates.
Conversely, if you're a pirate and you decide to cash in on the rich pickings in a high security system you should know that you have a very limited time to get the job done because a very efficient security force is going to be on you quickly and that you will also get a bounty on your head that you won't be able to just pay off and that will stay with you for a long time if not until your death.
That way you make your choices. Traders who want to avoid trouble can do so at the expense of having to take a much more circuitous route to their destination, and in fact have to plot it manually because the route planner makes no judgement on the safety or otherwise of systems. If speed of profit is more important then they can go the short route and risk attack.
Pirates can choose to hunt for traders taking the risk or they can shoulder the risk themselves and attack in the high security systems and hope they can get in and out before the cops turn up.
Then the risk/reward balance would work for both traders and pirates.
I was addressing the current "non-factor" state of fuel cost, not the disparity between ships.
But yeah, I like your idea of different fuels, with effects too... a bit cheesy on paper, but it could play well and would add some interest back to it (get standard from stars, and refined from stations, with different effects why not).
The cut on Prices for Fuel/Repair/buying Ships seems a bit too drastic in my opinion, but at the same Time.... oh well, why not? I only profit from that, so duh. And yes, you could look at it and think thats to please the PvP crowd, but I have never done any PvP and I am mainly a Trader with a second job as Explorer and again - I only profit from it.
So yeah, I think these things has become too cheap. But when something is too cheap I will go and buy it and not demand change ^^
So yeah, I think these things has become too cheap. But when something is too cheap I will go and buy it and not demand change ^^
LOL. Good one.
What if the loading team's forklift broke down and were left with one pallet truck. You would have to leave the game on over night for them to load the cargo.