Crime Update Discussion

Sandro Sammarco

Lead Designer
Frontier
Hello Commanders!

There's been a lot of interesting comments (thank you!) about a crime rules update we're looking at, so I'm creating a thread here where discussion can be more focused and visible.

The change we're looking at - in general terms - will be to remove the ability for criminals to pay off bounties issued against them (with some finesses to ensure that Commanders don't become wanted for an entire major faction after committing a single crime).

Instead, those Commanders will remain criminals in the system for a significant period of time, after which the bounty will become a non-expiring fine for the system (to prevent easy money-generating exploits).

To balance these more serious consequences, we're also considering activating friendly fire for player-on-player action (currently it is only in effect when Commanders attack NPC ships).

For clarity; friendly fire allows ships to deal a reasonably small amount of damage to a target's shields without a crime being generated. The actual rules are a little more complex, but this is the gist.

The idea here is that it's a little more forgiving when determining whether crime is being committed against Commanders, with a more significant response when this is the case.

Feel free to post your concerns and suggestions in this thread (with my ever-present caveat: be polite and friendly), I'd love to hear your thoughts!
 

Xaraman

X
From my point of view, as long as innocent CMDRs don't get nailed with this for accidental FF, then it is a decent improvement to the gameplay mechanics.

I'm sure there will be balancing required and it won't be perfect from the get go (please look at beam laser damage. Other players were reporting that beams were causing instant aggro), but it's a decent start.
 
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BristarUK

B
The difficulty is that in order for the game to continue being more enjoyable for all, we really want to encourage player on player dueling/pirate/bounty hunter relationships while at the same time discouraging pure killing of innocents in under powered ships.

To fix this all, you need to make pirating viable, and make bounty huntingactually possible as that system is also broken with it being impossible to find the highest 5 due to out of date data, and no players have bounties as they keep paying them off.

This little proposed fix goes someway to that but is just a drop in the ocean compared to what actually needs to happen to fix this part of the game.
 
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BristarUK

B
Won't this severely discourage pirating, thereby killing that profession, and then along with it bounty hunting will die off too.

We need more PVP not less.

Make pirating viable and offer some help to prevent playercide of new junior players. Then make those pirates easier to find by having their locations update more regularly, and only show the open players.

The system would then self balance as bounty hunters become the deterrent not a boring old fine. The bounty should definitely stay as a bounty, and it should be possible to clear that somehow but not too easily, and not immediately.
 
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QorbeQ

QorbeQ
Perfect Sandro. Thanks for listening to the concerns. This sounds exactly as required, no more no less :D
 

TehGems

TehGems
I believe before you introduce that change, you need to fix the bug with wing members being hostile and firing on you while being clean, and maybe also the fact that you get a bounty when firing on pirates that you haven't yet scanned.
I mean yesterday I was in a RES and I saw a Clipper shooting at three autority vessels. I target him, my finger twitches and I open fire a fraction of a second before my scanner is complete, I get a bounty and the three autority vessels I was trying to protect immediately attack me.
How realistic is that?
 

Javert

Volunteer Moderator
Javert
I agree with the spirit of these changes, so that pirates roaming around actually show as wanted most of the time, making them visible to bounty hunters.

My view is that you should not be able to pay off bounties against you immediately.

The question is whether this will also apply if you self destruct or are killed. The concern is that pilots could destroy themselves (possibly in a free sidewinder) to get around this.

I'm aware of the functionality around "Dormant fines and bounties", which I've always assumed was to avoid the situation where you are immediately attacked by the station as soon as you are killed, and you end up in a loop of getting killed all the time.

I'm not sure how you could solve that issue, but one suggestion I made was that dormant bounties or fines should reactivate on a short timer after you leave the station, rather than only being reactivated if you commit another crime.
 
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Loriath

Loriath
Will there be a "Guilt by association" mechanic?

Example: Pilot A and Pilot B Wing up to do some piracy. Both have clean statuses to start. Pilot A Interdicts another ship, All drop to Normal space. Pilot A fires on the victims ship, causing a wanted status. Pilot B, though he fired no shots, gets wanted status as well for partaking in the action.

As it is now, the Victim destroys or drives off Pilot A, and cannot set his sights on Pilot B yet, because there is no wanted status so he has to wait till Pilot B attacks or leaves

I think BOTH should be guilty by association because of Intent.
 

Trondster

T
Sounds nice! Here's hoping this will make PvP and pirating in general more interesting!
Especially not being able to just pay off the fine will make bounty hunting much more interesting, as there will be more targets.
 

idahosurge

idahosurge
You also need to adjust friendly fire at NCP's. The only time I ever get fined is for FF at NCP's. If you are in combat and one flies in front of your active weapons there is nothing that you can do and you get fined.
 

Defacto

Defacto
So basically, when you get a bounty, you don't have the option to pay it off?
After a time, your bounty stops being a bounty, and becomes a fine??

So, if I murder 32 people, release nerve gas into a starport and then destroy half of the local system security garrison, and I then wait for 48 hours (or whatever the expiry time is), I'm now free from a bounty? Or will I just get the option to wipe my bounty after the time, keeping it until it is wiped?

I do not see how the bounty being time-limited hinders bounty exploits. Can you clarify on this?

Why not just have people pay if they get destroyed by someone that claims their bounty? Where else would the money come from? The authorities? The same authorities that kill you for loitering?
If no money - then how about toilet cleaner ending (FE2 style)? Murder is not a noob mistake, I don't think there's a need to soften anything for the player. Also solves bounty exploits that would be possible if you had 0 credits and a bounty.
 

xyphic

X
Hi Sandro,

One of the main concerns with this feature is that the AI response to a player gaining a bounty is disproportionate. They will often (read: always) break off their pursuit of the bigger fish to take out someone with a 200cr bounty. While the accidental fire mechanism has improved things, I think that authority vessels should have a threshold for bounties that they actually care about, so if you've got a tiny bounty they'll usually leave you alone. Perhaps having a small bounty like this could instead affect you in other ways such as limiting the missions that you can take with the issuing faction, or decreasing the payout for combat bonds with them proportional to your bounty. This would mean that a single stray shot wouldn't cripple your ability to operate, but would have consequences that mean you might be more careful in future.
 

Xaraman

X
We need more PVP not less.
Click to expand...
If you mean players interacting with other players, then i agree with you. However, if you mean just combat, then i would disagree as pirating does not necessarily have to mean combat all the time. Pirates can be successful by firing very few shots. I would think that a mechanic that would flag certain, non-combat behaviour as pirating would also help this situation. At the moment, the game seems to register you as a pirate simply because you interdict someone and then fire on them. This is the same behaviour as a player killer which is where the difficulty comes from in this situation.
 

Artie

Artie
Sandro Sammarco said:
...
To balance these more serious consequences, we're also considering activating friendly fire for player-on-player action (currently it is only in effect when Commanders attack NPC ships).
...
Click to expand...

No consequences/fines at all for accidental fire within the wing will be also nice addition (doesn't matter how serious damage was dealt). :)
 

jirr

jirr
It would be nice to see higher fines and bounties. Perhaps .5 to 2 times the victim or attacking ships current insurance claim cost whichever is greater.
 
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