Lets test this persistent universe and see if FD are true to their word.

I will freely admit that I know very, very little about ancient and elaborate legal structures besides what I can research in the short time I have. It's not inspiring enough for me to see it as an effective adjunct to existing legal frameworks, so I don't see the point in studying it much more than I will for the sake of this argument. It has some reasonable tenets, from what I can read, and some good ideas. All governments require some kind of equitability, and it's fair to say that you get a bit of that in Brehon culture. But it does order society, and some voices count for more than others. Ownership is real, and it provided status above which you would expect from a fairer legal system.

Let's think about modern day. How many Irish people exclusively speak Irish? At this point around 85,000, out of a country of 4.6 million people. Around 1.3 million can speak Irish. But that still means that the majority of Irish people still cannot speak Irish. Not to mention, Ireland is almost exclusively Roman Catholic. The amount of self-declared Pantheists, or other, non-named was a total of 15,000 people in the recent census. Out of 4.6 million. I cannot, for the life of me imagine how the ancient ways could be preserved or revered for as long as they have been, with a population that tiny, that far removed from home.

Not to mention, in all of this, that legal system was completely eradicated by the English in the 1640s.

Even if I may not completely understand the governmental structure, I doubt that the Crimson State Group does either, or whether this system has more weight, more fairness, more equitability than a democracy. Be it about government, or the tiny population that likely would have lost its roots forever, I just can't make heads of your story.

It doesn't have to be cohesive. You obviously have thousands of players supporting you for funsies.

I happen to be sympathetic to the fact that your group has done all this hard work. Yes, while I'm fighting for the Feds, I am trying to spoil your fun. But I have principles that I follow for RPs sake. I think I identified a long-term solution that assists your cause, while also giving it legitimacy for me. That would be joining the Alliance. I think you should do it, at the very least because it provides a buffer against the Feds.

At the very least, you should help them because a stronger Alliance means more Federal resources devoted to them, and less to Lugh. I am an Alliance supporter first and foremost, so by extension I also benefit from your group trying to help them.

You've read what I've proposed, weigh the options already. They're good options. What about asymmetric warfare? Why not help boost the size of the Alliance as an investment in your future? Can you do without losing too many pilots around Lugh? Can you share exploration data? That sort of thing. Get back to the basics of what I proposed, and save yourself trying to interpret my intentions. I've made them crystal clear because that serves both our interests.

There's no use debating why I chose one shade of grey over another. Why I would choose Feds over CSG, or Alliance over Feds. You understand well enough why, and I have my reasons. It obviously demonstrates no lack of understanding on my part, I've had plenty of time to think about all of these things, which I did before I jumped into the War in the first place. I read your forums, read your back story. I chose the Feds for a reason. Nothing personal, thanks for the rewarding gameplay along the way, and my strategic advice you can keep. I'm sure it would benefit you regardless of your intentions for joining the Alliance.
 
[ /Rage ] I think your are forgetting the entire purpose here. We are here to test the background sim, it has been that way from the start. If you are trying to undo all our months of hard work, you are not only doing a disservice to the entire community but even FD. If no one stepped up and decided to hold them to their word, we would not have found the bugs in the background sim that FD have been working to fix. as i type this bugs are still running throughout the background sim, and if no one tries to stop them then we will have a buggy, messy, empty game that no one wants to play because people dont feel like they have any effect on the "persistent universe". not everyone cares about it, but sooner or later if bugs aren't checked they become an infestation that can damage the game. RP or no RP, you and the other thousands of Federation players that look blindly onto a single federation system that wants independence, are all ignoring that we are doing it to make sure that the game we were sold was genuine. If you want to put the RP glasses on and fight against us, fine. but do not do it blindly. Cmon people, its in the thread title. [ /Rage ]
 
*Reporter interviews Federation citizen from New New Old New Jersey Shore*

"So what do you think of these Lugh worshippers?"

"Oh, like, my god, like, serrrriously? Oh you know, I think they're like, some kind of space pagans. Like they came from Earth and brought their crazy sex magic voodoo stuff with them. I dunno, they call it Beltaine or something. They dance around a pole and then all go do all kinds of things! I mean orgies are like, so high fashion right now, what with the newest crop of immune boosters from Shinrarta Dezhra, so like that's cool and some junk."

"But, what do you think of their claim to the system?"

"Oh those guys? Oh I dunno, I think they're mostly just kinda gothy space hippies, you know, like from back in the old days. Like I saw this one, she was a total celebrity back in 2007. Sharon Osborne. And she had Ozzy, I think he was like the high priest or some junk. Anyways, I dunno, they listen to a lot of quadruple bass pedal stuff, those kids play with all kinds of cybernetic implants to make even faster and louder music. It hurts my ears! Give me my hyper-dubbed classical, some Britney Spears dubbed in sensovision. That's my jam! Selfie probe!"

*Reporter stands a little dumbfounded*

"Well, are they at least from the clans? From Ireland?"

"Oh God no, most of their ancestors came from this other country, you know, the one that founded the Federation. Oh yeah, I think it was 'Merca. It was called 'Merca, right?"

Trust me when I say I know my neo-pagans ;)
 
[ /Rage ] I think your are forgetting the entire purpose here. We are here to test the background sim, it has been that way from the start. If you are trying to undo all our months of hard work, you are not only doing a disservice to the entire community but even FD. If no one stepped up and decided to hold them to their word, we would not have found the bugs in the background sim that FD have been working to fix. as i type this bugs are still running throughout the background sim, and if no one tries to stop them then we will have a buggy, messy, empty game that no one wants to play because people dont feel like they have any effect on the "persistent universe". not everyone cares about it, but sooner or later if bugs aren't checked they become an infestation that can damage the game. RP or no RP, you and the other thousands of Federation players that look blindly onto a single federation system that wants independence, are all ignoring that we are doing it to make sure that the game we were sold was genuine. If you want to put the RP glasses on and fight against us, fine. but do not do it blindly. Cmon people, its in the thread title. [ /Rage ]


And you know what Starschulz, I agree with you in a lot of that. I appreciate that you guys are trying to test the background sim, and this is the first great chance to really do it. However, I still have my politics and my standards. If I saw Empire pilots trying to conquer independent systems, I'd get all over that, trying to stop their efforts, even if they were just innocently trying to test the background sim. I sympathize with the work that you guys put in, but man, this is politics. Politics is all about throwing your life and soul at a wall, and having that wall push back as hard as you do. People will fight desperately to maintain or gain the reality that they want. You can't be mad about that.

I vote a certain way, and I've even worked on political campaigns. By doing that I'm actively working to win my dreams, and to crush the dreams of other people. I don't WANT to crush their dreams out of spite for them. I just don't want to see their reality happen. They also don't want to see mine happen. That's just the way it is. You can't get mad about that, because that is life.

I still don't think that means dialogue is unimportant. I've said before that if you were getting Alliance support, I would have helped you in the CSG. And in any case, bolstering the Alliance can only help the CSG, so I think you should try it regardless.

Don't take this stuff personally. Politics is ruthless, and I've made it my mission to treat this game as akin to real life. It's good for the RP. And it also means I'm about 20 million credits behind other traders because I've refused to trade any slaves. I take my RP seriously.
 
And now you are overtly attempting to troll. It wasn't as subtle before as you seem to think it was.
You know people here have read your previous post in other threads and have developed a pretty good picture of you.
 
Where does the stuff with slaves come from? As far as I'm aware no-one directly concerned with the Crimson State Group deals in slaves anyway, even though nearby Feds clearly do. So that particular one is just FUD. Frontier is the games master / dungeon master, so given they don't want the Alliance to get involved this far into Fed territory then it will not happen. So that's not relevant either.

I have a casual interest in politics, but this is fantasy politics and I'm personally happy to not get too deep in it. I get that that's not how you want to play it Jeeves, but if this discussion goes on much longer it really ought to get a room. I mean thread. I've been doing role playing games for 30 years and you really do need to keep it light in something like this.

Meanwhile we've got an in-game job to do, and this discussion is a distraction. Keep going folks, let's do what we're best at and get those missions in! We started out as a PvE group, never asked for a PvP war, so we can do this!
 
And now you are overtly attempting to troll. It wasn't as subtle before as you seem to think it was.
You know people here have read your previous post in other threads and have developed a pretty good picture of you.

And, naturally, you'd still probably be wrong.

I cheerled for the Feds because I don't like to lose (who does?). In everything I've written I've been amazingly consistent. I have ribbed on you guys a bit, but the cross-chatter is prevalent on both sides. Watched your guys try to persuade my guys to defect, it was all in good fun. I called out SpaceTexan for being a rammer, because he is. And I told you that I would enjoy fighting against you. Which I have.

I watched some of your side starting to pull some very effective, yet dishonorable tactics. I clearly don't forget and intend to suggest their use in the next round (What, am I stupid? My enemies fight dirty but I'm not also willing to? That's just being a stupid soldier!) I also am working missions against you guys. Should you be surprised? You drew all this attention to you, and people are allowed to pick sides.

I don't see the war being over, I feel like the mercenary contracts were unrealistic, and to me it demeans the integrity of your win. I'm willing to talk about that, because realistically people don't like turncoats. Nobody does. There's historical references to back me up. I think the Feds could have finished their trade goal before you finished Spear of Lugh, were it not for the turncoats.

I haven't insulted anyone's intelligence, insulted their beliefs, attempted to aggravate them, nothing of the sort.

I've even tried to make resources available to other players who want to go explore valuable systems. So I'm actually very much a collaborationist. I'm even telling you terms upon which I'd happily collaborate with you, in the CSG. I'm giving you valuable advice. I'm obviously not trolling, and if you want to believe that I am, that's just you choosing to believe a figment of reality which might appear true to you, but likely never encompasses what reality actually is.

So if you're intellectually satisfied with drawing conclusions without thinking on the matter further, be my guest. But it's your loss. Because I'm giving you solid advice. Advice that would absolutely bring more soldiers to your side who would actually be loyal to you.

My advice is to take about five steps back, and try to grasp all the nuance of what I've been writing. I'm remarkably consistent, if you've already got "some idea from what I've been posting", well then why don't you go back that assumption up, and see if I'm actually a troll, or if I'm really just a member of the loyal opposition ;)
 
[ /Rage ] I think your are forgetting the entire purpose here. We are here to test the background sim, it has been that way from the start. If you are trying to undo all our months of hard work, you are not only doing a disservice to the entire community but even FD. If no one stepped up and decided to hold them to their word, we would not have found the bugs in the background sim that FD have been working to fix. as i type this bugs are still running throughout the background sim, and if no one tries to stop them then we will have a buggy, messy, empty game that no one wants to play because people dont feel like they have any effect on the "persistent universe". not everyone cares about it, but sooner or later if bugs aren't checked they become an infestation that can damage the game. RP or no RP, you and the other thousands of Federation players that look blindly onto a single federation system that wants independence, are all ignoring that we are doing it to make sure that the game we were sold was genuine. If you want to put the RP glasses on and fight against us, fine. but do not do it blindly. Cmon people, its in the thread title. [ /Rage ]

This is the problem

People can keep playing the RP card all they like, but when it comes down to it this all started as the very first community goal started by the OP. It was started in the interest of the community at large and all of the fluff that goes with it was created as flavour (and as fluff goes it's been very entertaining!).
Taking the fluff (without really looking into it properly even!) to justify an attempt to destroy a lot of hard work FOR the community is fairly despicable - especially when you are aware of what you are doing and aware that anyone new or uninformed will blindly follow, unaware that they are being asked to screw themselves over in the process.

It's either very short sighted or very mean - do people (it's not like I need to name anyone:p ) not realise that if everyone works together to iron out the flaws in the galaxy sim in this one system (and in doing so learn how to affect the background sim to the desired effect..), that they can then take all this and mould the galaxy to their ideas - any feds/imps/alliance knowingly trying to sabotage things are only causing themselves problems down the line when they want to instigate change and influence the galaxy towards their goals..

One a lighter note - no self respecting alliance pilot should ever help the feds :D
 
Clearly you dont. If you're using the neo-pagan community in America as indicative of those who actually have roots in those traditions you're going to have some huge misconceptions.

I'm quite obviously making a joke and using old worn-out stereotypes to talk about the American neo-pagan community. I've been to plenty of Beltaines, I've seen the traditions how they're practiced out here. And having a little fun ribbing on my fellow hilarious hippie types. I'm from Oregon for God's sakes. I know these folks like the back of my hand.

Nobody has roots in those traditions anymore though. Real nordic priests haven't existed in hundreds of years. So many old ways were passed down by oral tradition, that the losses upon those cultures are unbearable. Even for those who are close to the old ways, few know the mysteries. No druids exist anymore, and no modern pagans are truly close to the old ways.

Now, there are ancient traditions that are still being practiced. I know a lot more about those. Luckily the Christians couldn't convert all the Native Americans.

@Nightstorm Just meant to serve as an example of what I meant by that kind of RP.

If you're bothered that I'm opposing you over political interests, you should lobby FD to change the political listing for the CSG, from Corporate, to something more democratic. If your OP is to be believed (and it's his story, so that's fine by me) then he's not running a corporate empire. Guess he doesn't deserve that title.

Also if you look at Alliance space, they have many systems that are very, very far away from the main clump of systems. 70 to 80 ly away or more. The Alliance is already more diffuse than you would imagine, so I'd say there's probably hope for Lugh yet, and there's no harm in trying.

You all are here to talk strategy, correct? Well, why not discuss it? You've got a minor lull, some of you have explored the cosmos, you can share data to boost the Alliance CG, you don't even have to leave Lugh.

I've seen so many people come up with some idea for what I should be doing, as a player. Well I'm not doing those things, clearly. I haven't seen a single person address the strategic value of bolstering the Alliance, even as an equalizer against the Federation. No discussion about grand overtures, diplomacy, etc. If the FD devs have got your ear, then wouldn't a diplomatic gesture have a measure of sway? What if you backed it up with something?

You guys are just working to influence the CSG more. Same thing you've been doing this whole time. You've got hundreds of pages of writing partially devoted to that. You know the program. Why not take the short time you have here perusing the forums, and consider these ideas?

I'm being completely genuine with you about what would bring me, as a player over. There are plenty of other people who think like I do.

Here's an interesting question for you. I imagine many of you were extremely surprised by just how many Fed players turned out to fight against you. And while they bungled the trade goal at first, they still ended up finishing swiftly once they figured out what they had been doing wrong. Why would all these players so actively work against your group? What do these players think? What motivates them? How is it that they're so massive in numbers, yet so disorganized?

These are some important questions you can ask yourselves. Because if you find a good answer to that, it might be YOU who has the majority of CMDRs fighting on your side.

Sure, this might be temporarily distracting to you, but frankly if you make the right call, you could bring thousands of players to your side. So it's definitely worth considering.
 
Don't feed it. If the thread gets too far gone, it will be more than just Orfeboy needing to make his orders a bit larger and more blue.


I realize there are more people in system but is that really the only reason behind the difficulty in moving influence since the war?
 
This is the problem

People can keep playing the RP card all they like, but when it comes down to it this all started as the very first community goal started by the OP. It was started in the interest of the community at large and all of the fluff that goes with it was created as flavour (and as fluff goes it's been very entertaining!).
Taking the fluff (without really looking into it properly even!) to justify an attempt to destroy a lot of hard work FOR the community is fairly despicable - especially when you are aware of what you are doing and aware that anyone new or uninformed will blindly follow, unaware that they are being asked to screw themselves over in the process.

It's either very short sighted or very mean - do people (it's not like I need to name anyone:p ) not realise that if everyone works together to iron out the flaws in the galaxy sim in this one system (and in doing so learn how to affect the background sim to the desired effect..), that they can then take all this and mould the galaxy to their ideas - any feds/imps/alliance knowingly trying to sabotage things are only causing themselves problems down the line when they want to instigate change and influence the galaxy towards their goals..

One a lighter note - no self respecting alliance pilot should ever help the feds :D

Lol. The quip at the end was funny.

I think the extremely active opposition to your goals probably had a bigger hand in testing the background sim than anything else. What is FD going to do with a near stalemate? What do they do about turncoats? What about cap ship farming? Information about community goals?

It's clear that now stations can change hands, so you successfully tested that. But because the fighting was so fearsome, you've got some far more interesting questions that have been raised through this process. I don't know about you, but I'd take that as a blessing.

And did you have fun? I certainly did. And I appreciate you lot for bringing the community together.

You just have to realize that old saying, opinions are just like, well, ahem. Everybody's got one. It's pretty accurate.

And for another analogy, I've often said, people love to think the wealthy are in control of everything. In reality they're all fighting each other, wasting each others time, and getting in the way. Rather than the terrifying reality where somebody has control, the real reality is much scarier, that nobody is in control ;)

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Don't feed it. If the thread gets too far gone, it will be more than just Orfeboy needing to make his orders a bit larger and more blue.


I realize there are more people in system but is that really the only reason behind the difficulty in moving influence since the war?

Ahem, legitimate questions meant to help you are certainly not trolling.

This is not how trolls interact with other humans on the internet.

If I was trolling, I'd be saying all sorts of nasty things about your mother at this point. And as far as I know she's probably a very fine person.
 
I'm quite obviously making a joke and using old worn-out stereotypes to talk about the American neo-pagan community. I've been to plenty of Beltaines, I've seen the traditions how they're practiced out here. And having a little fun ribbing on my fellow hilarious hippie types. I'm from Oregon for God's sakes. I know these folks like the back of my hand.

Nobody has roots in those traditions anymore though. Real nordic priests haven't existed in hundreds of years. So many old ways were passed down by oral tradition, that the losses upon those cultures are unbearable. Even for those who are close to the old ways, few know the mysteries. No druids exist anymore, and no modern pagans are truly close to the old ways.

Now, there are ancient traditions that are still being practiced. I know a lot more about those. Luckily the Christians couldn't convert all the Native Americans.

@Nightstorm Just meant to serve as an example of what I meant by that kind of RP.

If you're bothered that I'm opposing you over political interests, you should lobby FD to change the political listing for the CSG, from Corporate, to something more democratic. If your OP is to be believed (and it's his story, so that's fine by me) then he's not running a corporate empire. Guess he doesn't deserve that title.

Also if you look at Alliance space, they have many systems that are very, very far away from the main clump of systems. 70 to 80 ly away or more. The Alliance is already more diffuse than you would imagine, so I'd say there's probably hope for Lugh yet, and there's no harm in trying.

You all are here to talk strategy, correct? Well, why not discuss it? You've got a minor lull, some of you have explored the cosmos, you can share data to boost the Alliance CG, you don't even have to leave Lugh.

I've seen so many people come up with some idea for what I should be doing, as a player. Well I'm not doing those things, clearly. I haven't seen a single person address the strategic value of bolstering the Alliance, even as an equalizer against the Federation. No discussion about grand overtures, diplomacy, etc. If the FD devs have got your ear, then wouldn't a diplomatic gesture have a measure of sway? What if you backed it up with something?

You guys are just working to influence the CSG more. Same thing you've been doing this whole time. You've got hundreds of pages of writing partially devoted to that. You know the program. Why not take the short time you have here perusing the forums, and consider these ideas?

I'm being completely genuine with you about what would bring me, as a player over. There are plenty of other people who think like I do.

Here's an interesting question for you. I imagine many of you were extremely surprised by just how many Fed players turned out to fight against you. And while they bungled the trade goal at first, they still ended up finishing swiftly once they figured out what they had been doing wrong. Why would all these players so actively work against your group? What do these players think? What motivates them? How is it that they're so massive in numbers, yet so disorganized?

These are some important questions you can ask yourselves. Because if you find a good answer to that, it might be YOU who has the majority of CMDRs fighting on your side.

Sure, this might be temporarily distracting to you, but frankly if you make the right call, you could bring thousands of players to your side. So it's definitely worth considering.

Please stop embarassing yourself will you? You have been to lots of Beltaines have you? The word is Bealtaine for a start and has nothing to do with May poles which is Germanic in origin. But of course, if you knew anything about what you are talking about you would know that but then again, you have been to lots of Belaines havent you? Jesus man, just stop.
 
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I know about the immense work you all have put into the war for Lugh, and I'm thankful. I know we (the CSG) owe you a lot, but please let us know how we can pay you back. If it's not for public eyes, I get that it all becomes hush-hush, but then you put the task of many on a few peoples shoulders; the fewer you rely on, the greater risk of failure.
The less people who knew the better. The point was that it was supposed to be a covert task, short and sweet. We don't make a habit of grand statements or public displays since all those bring is trouble.

It's not that hard to ask around your own people to try and find some trusted pilots to jet off for 5 days. Or at least, it shouldn't be as long as your group is organized.
 
Please stop embarassing yourself will you? You have been to lots of Beltaines have you? The word is Bealtaine for a start and has nothing to do with May poles. But of course if you knew anything about what you are talking about you would know that but then again, you have been to lots of Belaines havent you? Jesus man, just stop.

Beltaine, Bealtaine, call it whatever you will from whatever country or tradition. In the US I've always seen it spelled one way. It's a ceremony slightly after the spring equinox, I believe the first full moon after the spring equinox, is its traditional date. It's a fertility festival connotated with the natural mating and budding of spring. Traditionally it was done both for nature, but also for the harvest. May pole is all about the joining of the masculine and the feminine. There's a may queen, she picks the may king from some criteria she establishes, traditionally they copulate. And way, way back in the day, everyone joined into those particular rompous festivities. Also traditionally, the may king was sacrificed at the beginning of the next Beltaine. It was considered a great honor.

That's what I know off the top of my head. And that's as much as those around me knew, boiled down into a nutshell.

As far as whether a may bush or a may tree existed, that was also traditional. Though I did not recognize that about the maypole. Sounds like wiccan syncretism to me.
 
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Beltaine, Bealtaine, call it whatever you will from whatever country or tradition. In the US I've always seen it spelled one way. It's a ceremony slightly after the spring equinox, I believe the first full moon after the spring equinox, is its traditional date. It's a fertility festival connotated with the natural mating and budding of spring. Traditionally it was done both for nature, but also for the harvest. May pole is all about the joining of the masculine and the feminine. There's a may queen, she picks the may king from some criteria she establishes, traditionally they copulate. And way, way back in the day, everyone joined into those particular rompous festivities. Also traditionally, the may king was sacrificed at the beginning of the next Beltaine. It was considered a great honor.

That's what I know off the top of my head. And that's as much as those around me knew, boiled down into a nutshell.

Erm, no. Bealtaine is the month of May. It is an Irish word and stems from the merging of two words. Bal and tinne. Bal is a Deity and tinne means fire as Gaeilge. Actually it marks the beginning of the sowing of crops. It has nothing to do with May poles or equinoxes. It is a significant day in the calander marking the return of the new fire and marking the time to extinguish the hart and relight it from the source fire of the current High King. It signifies ower and the acknowledgement of that status publicly. It is much a political ceremony as it has to do with pagan religion. You have spent too much time reading wicca nonsense and Wicapedia from people have not got the first clue about what they are talking about.
 
Please stop embarassing yourself will you? You have been to lots of Beltaines have you? The word is Bealtaine for a start and has nothing to do with May poles which is Germanic in origin. But of course, if you knew anything about what you are talking about you would know that but then again, you have been to lots of Belaines havent you? Jesus man, just stop.

Thats the gaelic way of spelling it, yeah - in Anglo traditions they usually spell it Beltane - only in the fluffy-bunny US pagan community have I ever seen the horrible hybrid. As for him going on about nobody having roots in the old ways any more, I nearly snorted my beer over my keyboard and HOTAS.
 
Erm, no. Bealtaine is the month of May. It is an Irish word and stems from the merging of two words. Bal and tinne. Bal is a Deity and tinne means fire as Gaeilge. Actually it marks the beginning of the sowing of crops. It has nothing to do with May poles or equinoxes. It is a significant day in the calander marking the return of the new fire and marking the time to extinguish the hart and relight it from the source fire of the current High King. It signifies ower and the acknowledgement of that status publicly. It is much a political ceremony as it has to do with pagan religion. You have spent too much time reading wicca nonsense and Wicapedia from people have not got the first clue about what they are talking about.

Eh, that's the problem you run into when your reference frame is Wiccan, your point is good. Though depending on whose traditions are being followed, whether it's the first of May or the first full moon after the equinox is both considered a normal time.

I wasn't incorrect about either the fertility aspect, or the sowing. Obviously you can't harvest much in April, it's for the health of the future harvest.
But yes, I'm less versed in either tradition, as the Gods of those traditions stopped being worshipped many years ago. Also I never took Wicca too seriously, so I didn't listen too much into their traditions.

Now if you wanted to talk about Lakota ceremony, or Amazonian shamanism, now that is something I know a lot more about. But that's besides the point, you are correct about Beltaine.
 
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