Guilds in Elite Dangerous

[Sandmann]

I don't recall them talking negatively of it even. Neutrally and "we'll maybe look into it" is all I remember. The "against the philosophy of Elite" is, as far as I recall, us player's cry.

In any case, I provided evidence they said they'd look into it, so we'll see. Again, I don't want them either if they're going to intrude on my game but I'd rather argue the issue honestly and no reinterpret black and white.

OK you wanted evidence. This is David Braben, speaking on Twitch at EGX 2014 on Sept 25, roughly three months before public release. If you'd like to see the video yourself it's at http://www.twitch.tv/egx/c/5182929 and if you don't want to watch the whole thing, the pertinant bit is at 20:40.

David was asked "Will there be a corporation, guild or clan system within Elite Dangerous?" His FULL, COMPLETE response was:

There is the sort of "friends alliance", but at least to start with we've not got guilds and clans. I think what we don't want is the whole game to become ossified very quickly where you have to join one of the other to have any fun game play. I do like this; essentially it's the game of the freedom of the individual, the ability to just go out and do your own thing. You know that, guilds can very easily become like mafiosi, saying "don't travel here or we'll kill you", so I think it's something we will look at and are looking at, but "friends groups" which are very much more constrained are great, but when it gets much beyond that it becomes a bit... it doesn't feel right.

The friends alliances he spoke of at this point are obviously what turned out to be "Wings" release in V1.2 (remember, at this stage we were still in Beta, we didn't even have an official name for wings yet). He does admit they have examined the possibility with "it's something we will look at and are looking at" but he goes it to say that it's not going to be anything more than wings with ""friends groups" which are very much more constrained are great, but when it gets much beyond that it becomes a bit... it doesn't feel right." At NO point in this entire thing does he speak positively about guilds'corps/clans, other than to say "we've considered it and we're going with wings instead because we don't like guilds because it would stop the game being about the individual".

There you have it... in full colour video, from the man himself. No guilds. End of story.

 

[Renegade Roach]

OK you wanted evidence. This is David Braben, speaking on Twitch at EGX 2014 on Sept 25, roughly three months before public release. If you'd like to see the video yourself it's at http://www.twitch.tv/egx/c/5182929 and if you don't want to watch the whole thing, the pertinant bit is at 20:40.

David was asked "Will there be a corporation, guild or clan system within Elite Dangerous?" His FULL, COMPLETE response was:


The friends alliances he spoke of at this point are obviously what turned out to be "Wings" release in V1.2 (remember, at this stage we were still in Beta, we didn't even have an official name for wings yet). He does admit they have examined the possibility with "it's something we will look at and are looking at" but he goes it to say that it's not going to be anything more than wings with ""friends groups" which are very much more constrained are great, but when it gets much beyond that it becomes a bit... it doesn't feel right." At NO point in this entire thing does he speak positively about guilds'corps/clans, other than to say "we've considered it and we're going with wings instead because we don't like guilds because it would stop the game being about the individual".

There you have it... in full colour video, from the man himself. No guilds. End of story.

'End of story'? From what you quoted he says 'at least to start with'.. not the same thing really, is it?

Really love thw way some of you guys continually try to shut this down with authoritative 'dad' statements

 

[Sandmann]

What? I'm not a particularly good WoT player but I like Randoms. I enjoy making the difference and playing alone to grind up to the higher tiers (Currently at T8). The community are Toxic and painful in chat, but simply turn it off.... Don't use XVM - Just play. I have a win rate of > 50% now after 9k games and some hard learning on the way, but randoms are just that - random...

But the joy comes in WoT when random people work together to win the match....

I do prefer playing as part of a platoon however, 3 man platoons are cool because you can rely on your platoon mates to watch your back (sometimes) They are a bit like wings of course in Elite. They are why my stats have got better.

Then the next layer is the Clan and we use this to just organise platoons or to do the stronghold battles where we fight 7 vs 7 up to T6 (at the moment) against other clan teams.

That is where it differs from Elite, it is consensual PvP, and there is no back story. Gains are limited to that match and so it works. Clans are essential in WoT to get the coordination required, it is a TEAM game....

I'd been an alpha and beta tester of WOT, and alpha & beta of World of Warplanes too. I stopped playing WOT about 3 or 4 months after they introduced clans - in fact I still have gold or whatever it was there that I've no interest in using. Maybe it's changed since then, but at the time if you weren't in a clan, you were meat to the grinder and nothing more.

As far as your last statement, Elite already has the same thing as WoT in that Wings allow groups of people to kill you in open play. So When you leave close the door on your way out....

A wing of 3 players is hardly the same thing as a closed arena dominated by guilds... so if either of us is leaving by the door it'll be you for your poor choice of metaphor.

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'End of story'? From what you quoted he says 'at least to start with'.. not the same thing really, is it?

This was three months before release. We are quite a bit beyond "to start with" now and still only have what he said we'd have, and you're ignoring all the parts where he's said "no guilds, only friends alliances, it doesn't feel right". Please stop clutching at straws... the man who owns and designed it said it's not going to happen. That's about as much "end of story" as you can get.

 

[jabokai]

No guilds.

It doesn't say that.

But I would agree that is on a slightly more negative side of neutral, but not wholly so. He's leaving his options open basically.

 

[CMDR Skallagrimm]

I do wish people would stop reading Wikipedia and then referencing it when crying straw man, logical fallacies and slippery slope methods of refute and actually get an education about philosphical argument.

By the way, thats a general shout out by way of ad hominem beause im a lazy thinker.

Im happy to see a balance. If tags and dedicated chat channels are what people want, combined with affiliation with minor factions; then that is a fair request.

Ill just roll my eyes and move to group/solo play once all the rainbow poo pony and I had your mom guilds line up to fight over Lave.

Bang goes the immersion.

 

[Renegade Roach]

This was three months before release. We are quite a bit beyond "to start with" now and still only have what he said we'd have, and you're ignoring all the parts where he's said "no guilds, only friends alliances, it doesn't feel right". Please stop clutching at straws... the man who owns and designed it said it's not going to happen. That's about as much "end of story" as you can get.

I would hope Elite's lifetime might be measured in years (even a decade or more, like that other unmentionable game). If you think we are so far past release that nothing can change it's rather sad. It would also be rather sad if Frontier were to not keep an open mind as to how the game should be developed and. I've said before that Mr B has seemed very out of touch with certain elements of online gaming from statements that he has made, I've not changed in that opinion. Basing your entire argument against guilds on what happens on EVE is facile.

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I do wish people would stop reading Wikipedia and then referencing it when crying straw man, logical fallacies and slippery slope methods of refute and actually get an education about philosphical argument.

By the way, thats a general shout out by way of ad hominem beause im a lazy thinker.

Im happy to see a balance. If tags and dedicated chat channels are what people want, combined with affiliation with minor factions; then that is a fair request.

Ill just roll my eyes and move to group/solo play once all the rainbow poo pony and I had your mom guilds line up to fight over Lave.

Bang goes the immersion.

Well aren't we the superior one.

One thing I do find interesting, and telling, in this whole debate is the recurring level of sneering condescension from those against any development in this direction towards those in favour of looking at it further. Not directing that at anybody specific, before I get moderated....

 

[Sandmann]

It doesn't say that.

But I would agree that is on a slightly more negative side of neutral, but not wholly so. He's leaving his options open basically.

There's certainly nothing positive about guilds in there, is there? If they were considering putting them in, do you think he would have said things like "they're like mafiosi", "the game is about the freedom of the individual", or "it doesn't feel right"? If he liked guilds, don't you think he (or ANY member of FD) might have at least once said something POSITIVE about them?

As I keep saying, they have given us no reason to suspect that they want them, and every reason to suspect that they don't.

 

[Varrag]

There you have it... in full colour video, from the man himself. No guilds. End of story.

Interesting how people tend to read what they like and jump to conclusions which will fit their personal stance. I, for one, see that he considered guild mechanics, and was pretty cautious about it because, clearly, he doesn't want to create something which might resemble EVE's environment - which can be indeed pretty harsh to lone wolves.

It's really a pretty vague statement which leaves a lot space for speculations. I don't think he dismissed anything: hardly an end of story if you ask me.

 

[jabokai]

There's certainly nothing positive about guilds in there, is there? If they were considering putting them in, do you think he would have said things like "they're like mafiosi", "the game is about the freedom of the individual", or "it doesn't feel right"? If he liked guilds, don't you think he (or ANY member of FD) might have at least once said something POSITIVE about them?

As I keep saying, they have given us no reason to suspect that they want them, and every reason to suspect that they don't.

There's a big difference between what you wrote there ^ and "No guilds. End of story."

I agree with what you wrote above, please just don't draw an extreme conclusion from moderate words.

 

[Sandmann]

I would hope Elite's lifetime might be measured in years (even a decade or more, like that other unmentionable game).

I hope so too. That doesn't mean we're not past "to start with" as compared to three months BEFORE release.

If you think we are so far past release that nothing can change it's rather sad.

I didn't say that. I said that there's no reason to suspect from anything that DBOBE or anyone in FD have ever said to suspect that one of the changes would be as radical as introducing guilds. It would mean a complete reversal of direction from "one man in a spaceship", "the freedom of the individual" etc.

It would also be rather sad if Frontier were to not keep an open mind as to how the game should be developed and. I've said before that Mr B has seemed very out of touch with certain elements of online gaming from statements that he has made, I've not changed in that opinion. Basing your entire argument against guilds on what happens on EVE is facile.

Using one game as an example doesn't make you "out of touch with gaming", and the fact that there's so many people on here getting passionate about his game sort of proves that he's anything BUT out of touch. In fact there's all sorts of evidence to show that the people who WANT guilds are in the minority and that therefore THEY are out of touch for demanding them. Reference EVERY poll about guilds that've been on these very forums.

 

[Caribou]

I'd been an alpha and beta tester of WOT, and alpha & beta of World of Warplanes too. I stopped playing WOT about 3 or 4 months after they introduced clans - in fact I still have gold or whatever it was there that I've no interest in using. Maybe it's changed since then, but at the time if you weren't in a clan, you were meat to the grinder and nothing more.



A wing of 3 players is hardly the same thing as a closed arena dominated by guilds... so if either of us is leaving by the door it'll be you for your poor choice of metaphor.

WoWp was the worst game ever but not due to Clans....

I'll restate it because you glossed over it for your own purposes - WoT is a TEAM game where CLANS are vital.... Even in randoms you need coordination and it happens rarely with the tens of thousands players online at any given time. During the early stages of development and testing you would have seen the same people over and over and been able to make it work, but now it is less frequent and more "random". This is what I now see in the CBT or World of Warships....

Your Ad Hominem is simply wrong, A co-ordinated group of players in both games could gank another player - that is what you suggested would make you leave the game and I called you on it.... I won't be leaving the game because ultimately it will get better and will most likely include what I want or surprise me with something that I hadn't contemplated.

 

[SteveLaw]

This is pure scaremongering. I play almost entirely as a solo combat pilot in open and have no problems. I avoid the Lave cluster. Your argument also doesn't hold up. Those groups are already organised. From the clips many of them upload it is clear that the majority use Teamspeak (or other voice comms), as any 'serious' pvp players do. What I suggested would make not the slightest difference, other than actually allowing the lone wolf or trader to identify players from known groups.

Therefore guilds are not needed. They make "not the slightest difference" to tools already available, in and out of the game.

 

[Sandmann]

WoWp was the worst game ever but not due to Clans....

I'll restate it because you glossed over it for your own purposes - WoT is a TEAM game where CLANS are vital.... Even in randoms you need coordination and it happens rarely with the tens of thousands players online at any given time. During the early stages of development and testing you would have seen the same people over and over and been able to make it work, but now it is less frequent and more "random". This is what I now see in the CBT or World of Warships....

OK so using WOT of an analogy for using guilds in ED isn't perfect. I'm happy to accept that. I really don't give a damn about WOT since I stopped playing it, I'm trying to talk about ED. Oh and agreed, World of Warplanes sucked... I never even bothered playing much past the alpha. Didn't' even bother applying for alpha on the ships one.

Your Ad Hominem is simply wrong, A co-ordinated group of players in both games could gank another player - that is what you suggested would make you leave the game and I called you on it.... I won't be leaving the game because ultimately it will get better and will most likely include what I want or surprise me with something that I hadn't contemplated.

What? Argument ad hominem means arguing by "attacking the man", inferring someone using insult or slurs on character when they're unable to argue the core of the argument, but I didn't attack anyone. I think you need to do a little more research on argument fallacies there my friend. I also didn't say anything about leaving ED either... I have no idea what you're reading but you might want to go back and re-read it. I said I left WOT because of the introduction of clans. I said the same thing (guilds dominating core space) would happen here if they were introduced... which is also what DBOBE fears when he likens them to "mafiosi".

Now, where were you intending to go with this argument?

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There's a big difference between what you wrote there ^ and "No guilds. End of story."

I agree with what you wrote above, please just don't draw an extreme conclusion from moderate words.

When the story is about the introduction of guilds, having the boss say "no guilds" is pretty much the definition of "end of story". Sure you can go on talking about it if you like, noone's stopping you, but at this point there's no reason to be getting upset and demanding that it happen coz we know it's not.

 

[_Flin_]

I stopped playing WOT about 3 or 4 months after they introduced clans - in fact I still have gold or whatever it was there that I've no interest in using. Maybe it's changed since then, but at the time if you weren't in a clan, you were meat to the grinder and nothing more.

When playing WoT for quite some amount of time, about 2 years (starting around 7.5.), I never played when there were no clans, and I usually played solo, as I play most of my games.

I neither experienced the symptoms you describe nor can I see any correlation. You could win against clans, you could lose against clans.

Maybe you just hate guilds and clans so much that your frustration about negative experiences lets you project all of that onto the existence of clans.

 

[Sandmann]

When playing WoT for quite some amount of time, about 2 years (starting around 7.5.), I never played when there were no clans, and I usually played solo, as I play most of my games.

I neither experienced the symptoms you describe nor can I see any correlation. You could win against clans, you could lose against clans.

Maybe you just hate guilds and clans so much that your frustration about negative experiences lets you project all of that onto the existence of clans.

Yes that's it, I have a deep, pathological hatred of all organised gaming and I need therapy. Now THAT is argument ad hominem, for those who were unsure.

 

[Caribou]

OK so using WOT of an analogy for using guilds in ED isn't perfect. I'm happy to accept that.

Good.. Glad thats cleared up

What? Argument ad hominem means arguing by "attacking the man",

let me requote:

A wing of 3 players is hardly the same thing as a closed arena dominated by guilds... so if either of us is leaving by the door it'll be you for your poor choice of metaphor.

Now, where were you intending to go with this argument?

If there is a point, it is that limited social tools and grouping make online games consisting of random people better because they can coordinate.... Now your argument is that this is always bad, and mine is that it is pretty much good. We won't meet in the middle - we both know that, so over to you for the last word....

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Yes that's it, I have a deep, pathological hatred of all organised gaming and I need therapy. Now THAT is argument ad hominem, for those who were unsure.

Yes it was, yours was just more subtle....

 

[Talarin]

When the story is about the introduction of guilds, having the boss say "no guilds" is pretty much the definition of "end of story". Sure you can go on talking about it if you like, noone's stopping you, but at this point there's no reason to be getting upset and demanding that it happen coz we know it's not.

But he didn't say "No guilds". He also didn't say "no improvement to social tools" or "Sandmann is the final arbiter of what we'll develop in the game". You're reading too much of your own desires into DB's statement. If you're so convinced that FD's development path of the game will preclude the tools that are being asked for, why not stop polluting the thread with the continual insistence that it just won't happen?
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You reckon only about a third of players have any interest in expanding the sort of functionality we're trying to discuss. But I've also read estimates that anywhere from a third to a half of players are exclusively in solo (to be clear, I am not sure of the basis of that number - but it doesn't feel unreasonable). Combining the two numbers suggests that the majority of players who play Elite as a multiplayer game want better social tools... (It's a bit rough and ready, but I'm sure you see where I'm going with this...)

A far better use of time might be to describe what you might consider acceptable in terms of the things being asked? A clear and succinct request was made a couple of pages back. What did you think of that? What issues did you have with it?
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Speaking for myself, I completely agree with DB's caution. I don't want Eve-style control of areas, or an atmosphere which is oppressive for lone-wolf players. But the social tools in a multiplayer game suck.

 

[Ghostickles]

LMAO anyway, Like FD has never shown 'flexibility' in 'decisions', Riiight.

 

[_Flin_]

Yes that's it, I have a deep, pathological hatred of all organised gaming and I need therapy. Now THAT is argument ad hominem, for those who were unsure.

Well, I am just highly irritated how someone could possibly come to the conclusion that the introduction of clans ruined WoT, when I experienced nothing close to that.

 

[Anton Cano]

I find it interesting how when you poll people outside of these forums the percentages flip. https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1vj...FONi2hvEZGx78o/viewanalytics?usp=form_confirm

<snip>

I also find it amusing that many naysayers are naive enough to think that if the systems don't exist to support them players won't create groups larger than a wing. They're wrong. Braben is wrong in that quote that was bandied about. Not building these systems won't stop player organizations from existing; it will make them more exclusive and harder to deal with because there will be no way of regulating them so to speak.

I know the original Elite came out in 1984. Multiplayer wasn't really a thing back then, so a lot of the original backers (who are zealously active on these boards) want more or less the same thing that you had back then. The problem is that this is 2015, and this game will not compete if it doesn't cater to the natural multiplayer progression of things. I'm not talking about raids or some other "guild-specific content". It is lacking the ability for players to form tribes, which is human nature. If this game doesn't do that it will be relegated to the waste bin sooner rather than later and some other game (maybe Star Citizen?) will take the market that FD alienated and run with it. Then the offline mode players will get their wish, but maybe that's what the naysayers (and their laughably weak arguments) want to begin with?