Guilds in Elite Dangerous

[jabokai]

What do you think "wings" was?

That was to patch in the standard MMO capability to form a spontaneous, and temporary, collection of people for a specific purpose. The question and answer I quoted was specifically about guilds/clans. I actually don't want them either, but don't state stuff that isn't true such as "every response has been negative". I could dig out more quotes if I could be bothered. Stick to valid arguments and truthful statements.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

I find it interesting the way this thread is always necro'd whenever the topic comes up. That poll at the top is hopelessly out of date from way back when there was a very small number of people involved in the project. I noticed the more recent reddit poll shows some different results.

If this thread is going to be the main discussion area I think its about time the poll at the very top be removed.

There was a poll a few days back. it was killed fairly soon after it was set up but it was heading the same way.

It is interesting that you note that other communities outside of the official elite one have a different view on what they want to see in the game. I guess then it comes down to, do you pander to your core audience (presumably the ones who bother to subscribe to and post in the official channels) or to the fringe groups on the outside.?

I would say the people who matter most (in truth, none of us matter, the only people who really matter are FD themselves) but still, I would hope the wishes of people on the FD forums themselves are taken over and above a bunch of random steam users who picked up Elite after playing a bit of warthunder or WOT and think, that the same thing in space may be nice.

As for, how do organised guilds affect a lone wolf player who is trying to go it outside of player organised clans (something another poster asked)......... well, I just do not see how the answer is not obvious.

I am not saying guilds are a BAD thing across the board, but, I am saying with almost all online MP games already pandering to them, then ED is a breath of fresh air for those of us who want some human interaction without all that extra which makes the game horribly 1 sided to those outside of one - and yes! the same can be said for wings, but I see 4 player wings as the COMPROMISE being offered by FD .


That being said, I also backed SC, a game hugely centred around guilds, but personally I would never consider going on there and make posts expecting that guild content is stripped.... though if there was an official thread detailing suggestions to improve content for lone wolves, I may get involved.

 

[Sandmann]

Don't deflect, answer or don't reply.
Thanx

I did answer, quite directly.

Don't tell me what to do.

Thanks.

 

[Max Torps]

I think you have to appreciate that, in keeping with the ethos of what 'Elite' is, FD aren't going to entertain guilds and guild-like game mechanics. It is not what the game is about.

I think that people are lumping together various social tools into an amorphous blob, calling it guild enablement then scaremongering over what apparently happens in Eve Online. That's not forward thinking, it's using fear of "the other" to retain a stagnant, status quo.

As an example to ponder, Frontier have an amazing opportunity to tie-in social tools with factions existing in Elite that preserve the feel of Elite and what Elite is. I really can't see what harm that can do at all. If they take baby steps they can fully understand the effect certain enablements have and control them accordingly.

 

[Ghostickles]

Oh, Im sorry, your right, how rude of me.
Please, carry on.
(that's what I thought)

 

[Sandmann]

That was to patch in the standard MMO capability to form a spontaneous, and temporary, collection of people for a specific purpose. The question and answer I quoted was specifically about guilds/clans. I actually don't want them either, but don't state stuff that isn't true such as "every response has been negative". I could dig out more quotes if I could be bothered. Stick to valid arguments and truthful statements.

I did. The few times they've actually addressed the idea, every time they've spoken negatively about them, albeit in a manner obviously intended to "soften the blow". They've never spoken positively or even neutrally about the idea of guilds/corps etc, other than as "small, temporary alliances" which is what "wings" provides.

 

[_Flin_]

While the poll is quite old, the results seem to be consistent with those for current users of these forums.

I really don't get how this straw man argument is brought up again and again.

The referenced poll is about guilds as minor factions, with control over space stations and civil war against other guilds and factions.

So no, the poll is nothing at all about "guilds in ED", it is about "guild as minor factions".

 

[SteveLaw]

So no, the poll is nothing at all about "guilds in ED", it is about "guild as minor factions".

Seriously how long do you think it would be before "guilds in ED" would look towards "guilds as minor factions" as a logical next step?

I don't want to see guilds in ED but if there were guilds in ED in my mind they would have to be minor factions to fit into the universe. How else would you describe them as something implemented in code?

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

Slippery slope argument once more... Please, it would be more constructive to state why a guild may be harmful to you in game rather than use logical fallacy.

Ok I'll bite.

This is Elite, which has its own lore, back-story, universe, and 30 years of legacy.

Some definitions :

Guild

Dictionary Definition

noun1.an organization of persons with related interests, goals, etc., especially one formed for mutual aid or protection.



Faction

Dictionary Definition

noun1.a group or clique within a larger group, party, government,organization, or the like:a faction in favor of big business.




Elite's treatment of politics within a star system is by means of factions.

There is no mention of guilds (as far as I have seen) in the Elite lore.

Elite: Dangerous is the 4th version of Elite. As such, it is attempting to recapture the Elite universe, lore, back-story, and legacy feel, using contemporary technology which was not available 20-30 years ago (e.g. vastly superior graphics and computing technology, networking).

Elite also influenced the creation of other games, such as EvE.

There has been a generation of people who never grew up with Elite, but perhaps grew up with EvE and other games, and are therefore unaware of Elite's story, but nevertheless thought that Elite: Dangerous looked like a really great game and therefore have started playing it. (There have also been players who grew up with Elite and have also lived through the times the EvE and other games were created). These players have observed and taken part in the concept of Guilds within these other games.

Elite, however, never had the concept of Guilds. Only political factions.

Elite is NOT suited for the introduction of player Guilds. It does not matter if players form Guilds using 3rd party tools (e.g. TeamSpeak) to form these guilds. They are still outwith the game mechanics, back-story, lore, and legacy. It is the fact that Elite does not have the concept of guilds which the groups of players who enjoy forming Guilds in online games are being frustrated in their attempts to somehow control systems such as Lave for example. This is what is leading to this pressure by these guild-forming players for FDEV to code in Guild support to E: D.

If players wish to form Guilds within Elite, they should reconsider. They should instead be pushing for joining in-game factions - as that is in-lore and entirely within the game's heart and soul. Factions should also not be player-controlled within Elite - ever. This is already the road that FDEV is going down with their background simulation - players have the power to influence which faction in a system gets to be the top dog.

In short - player-controlled guilds will never work in Elite, as this is not how Elite works. It does not matter if 100 players get together in Teamspeak and pretend they're in some [ABC] Guild. It is irrelevant and out-of-game. At best, they may be able to influence which in-game faction gains or loses control of a system (i.e. they will be able to influence the in-game background simulation), but there will never be an official "This system is controlled by [ABC] Guild".

And that is the way it should be.

 

[Cosmos]

There was a poll a few days back. it was killed fairly soon after it was set up but it was heading the same way.

It is interesting that you note that other communities outside of the official elite one have a different view on what they want to see in the game. I guess then it comes down to, do you pander to your core audience (presumably the ones who bother to subscribe to and post in the official channels) or to the fringe groups on the outside.?

I would say the people who matter most (in truth, none of us matter, the only people who really matter are FD themselves) but still, I would hope the wishes of people on the FD forums themselves are taken over and above a bunch of random steam users who picked up Elite after playing a bit of warthunder or WOT and think, that the same thing in space may be nice.

As for, how do organised guilds affect a lone wolf player who is trying to go it outside of player organised clans (something another poster asked)......... well, I just do not see how the answer is not obvious.

I am not saying guilds are a BAD thing across the board, but, I am saying with almost all online MP games already pandering to them, then ED is a breath of fresh air for those of us who want some human interaction without all that extra which makes the game horribly 1 sided to those outside of one - and yes! the same can be said for wings, but I see 4 player wings as the COMPROMISE being offered by FD .


That being said, I also backed SC, a game hugely centred around guilds, but personally I would never consider going on there and make posts expecting that guild content is stripped.... though if there was an official thread detailing suggestions to improve content for lone wolves, I may get involved.

Yeah I'm not heavily invested in there being clans or not but the results from that reddit poll were way different to this one. To be honest I think the whole forum polling thing is flawed from the outset. They are usually written with an agenda and biased and since this is the goto thread for discussion on the topic I find myself at odds with there being a poll, years old, attached to the top.

Its as if its being used for the purpose of defending a position rather than seeking a true metric, which could only be achieved if Frontier did one and it was attached to the launcher. I mean ~500 people, how can that ever be a measure for the hundreds of thousands who own the game?

I'd be far happier with the forums here if polls were removed.

 

[Marc Alexander]

I think that people are lumping together various social tools into an amorphous blob, calling it guild enablement then scaremongering over what apparently happens in Eve Online. That's not forward thinking, it's using fear of "the other" to retain a stagnant, status quo.

As an example to ponder, Frontier have an amazing opportunity to tie-in social tools with factions existing in Elite that preserve the feel of Elite and what Elite is. I really can't see what harm that can do at all. If they take baby steps they can fully understand the effect certain enablements have and control them accordingly.

I'm talking about guilds. You now seem to be talking about 'social tools' (whatever they are). The mechanics of a game do not make it somehow 'stagnant'. Elite is its own game, with its own ethos behind it. What you're suggesting is that if FD don't embrace certain 'social tools' they are backward looking (or at the very least, not progressive)

Is it not you who is scaremongering?

 

[Renegade Roach]

I really don't get how this straw man argument is brought up again and again.

The referenced poll is about guilds as minor factions, with control over space stations and civil war against other guilds and factions.

So no, the poll is nothing at all about "guilds in ED", it is about "guild as minor factions".

This is partly why the whole argument is tedious and circular. The definition of what a 'guild' is, and what it would entail in Elite mechanics wise, and what people's desires and expectations are vary massively from one person to the next. It seems most of the 'anti' guys are against it due to the assumption of a 'worst case scenario', basically they have the fear the Elite will turn into EVE. I think it's rather sad that some people are so blinded by negativity on the matter that they can't see how, if well implemented, better tools for player socialisation could be a huge benefit for this game.

 

[Ghostickles]

pppft, Guilds would be less than minor factions even, your talking hundreds (except Mobius, with about 25% online is maybe a couple thousand as the games largest 'group') which is really nothing compared to the NPC populations, so even if they exist alongside lore they aren't a major or minor anything, just what they are, groups of aligned pilots, like a military unit or biker gang. Signifying that ruins what again?

 

[Robert Maynard]

I really don't get how this straw man argument is brought up again and again.

The referenced poll is about guilds as minor factions, with control over space stations and civil war against other guilds and factions.

So no, the poll is nothing at all about "guilds in ED", it is about "guild as minor factions".

Where's the straw man? The proponents of guild features do not seem to have a single, clear, finite, request for additional features.

 

[jabokai]

The few times they've actually addressed the idea, every time they've spoken negatively about them, albeit in a manner obviously intended to "soften the blow". They've never spoken positively or even neutrally about the idea of guilds/corps etc, other than as "small, temporary alliances" which is what "wings" provides.

I provided evidence to the contrary. Apparently when asked about guilds and they reply "negatively" the question was about guilds. When they reply neutrally it seems the question, in your eyes, was about "small, temporary alliances" despite the question specifically stating "guilds" and "clans".

 

[Ghostickles]

Where's the straw man? The proponents of guild features do not seem to have a single, clear, finite, request for additional features.

Which is why I agreed with you earlier, I would not want to be in charge of the poop storm either way when it comes down to it. It's FD's game and their call. It may be they react to the feedback, it may be they do not. I am inclined to think they will have a better idea how to do anything about the matter than any of us. If anything.

 

[Caribou]

Try #nearly3000posts

Ah didn't know you were a management accountant Withnail

Tunnocks?

 

[Sandmann]

I provided evidence to the contrary. Apparently when asked about guilds and they reply "negatively" the question was about guilds. When they reply neutrally it seems the question, in your eyes, was about "small, temporary alliances" despite the question specifically stating "guilds" and "clans".

The "small, temporary alliances" was a direct quote from DBOBE. It is what they said they would "look at post release". I'm sure if you go have a look at the David Braben vids on youtube you'll find several that mention it as a possibility... and surprise surprise it actually happened. That however is as far as they've been willing to commit to, and any mention of anything more than wings has been met variously with silence, obfuscation, and "it'd be against the philosophy of Elite". There's never been an incident where they've spoken positively about including guilds that I'm aware of.

 

[Varrag]

Guilds are reserved for games with large scale events, player generated economy / player trading, crafting, group objectives and things like that.

Sorry, but this is not true. Take World of Tanks for example - there is nothing like large scale events, economy, crafting or trading: it's just a tactical shooter. But player clans are very important part of the game; granted that there is only one, simple yet the most effective group objective that can be invented - fighting other clans.

 

[Renegade Roach]

Where's the straw man? The proponents of guild features do not seem to have a single, clear, finite, request for additional features.

Hmmm. How about a shared communication channel and a group identifier (call it a tag if you like) which show only under contacts once the player has been scanned? Clear and finite enough? I'll get hit with the 'you can use Teamspeak, 3rd party communications tools etc' argument. The response to that is a) not all of us can use voice comms. b) playing on a single screen makes using 3rd party chat systems problematic and (since people love the word) would break immersion.

Of the 6 people I know who started the game together, all former guild mates/rl friends from other games, I'm the only one left playing (and that barely). A large factor in that, beyond the paucity of content, has been teh inability of the game to foster small communities using in game mechanics. Wings are not adequate, they are makeshift by design. Guilds need confer no extra benefits. There need not be any extra 'guild content'. The game need not become EVE: Dangerous simply because of this. Those are all slippery slope arguments and hold no water.