Traders with Teeth : A Wishlist

[Branko]

"What abour pirates in Somalia? They usually use super tiny embarkations and can even arrest big tankers. Because the tankers, no matter how big it is and no matter how rich its owner might be, is nothing but a mere tankers. it is not a battleship".

True, but a super tanker should not even have its paint scratched by a pirate in a rubber dinghy firing a water pistol

Put a Soviet era handheld anti tank RPG in the dinghy and you'll be scratching a lot more then paint.

Anyway if you want a durable merchant ship which can swat small things, there is the anaconda

 

[Wilhelm Scream]

What about a signal masker? Make your t9 look like an eagle or make your hauler look like a viper. Hmm, maybe not as big a difference as eagle and t9, but maybe just get a signal back saying small, medium or large ship? Have competitive modules, sensors vs masker?

 

[Jack Schitt]

I agree with pretty much everything above. Mined cargo and the like sound like fun and would arguably be fine in a single-player game, but in a multiplayer environment they'd be OP and lead to a ridiculous arms race.

Part of the problem as it stands is that the interdiction mechanic strongly favours the aggressor due to the way damage is inflicted upon the ships. The aggressor is already spoiling for a possible rumble and almost certainly flying a ship that's cheaper to repair than that of the target. There is very little point in a trade ship fighting an interdiction that they're more likely to lose anyway and that will cost them a fair chunk in repair bills. Far easier to do the old "submit 'n' boost" which wastes everyone's time and is likely to lead to the pirate getting the hump and simply trying to blast the trade ship before it can jump. Nobody wins.

IMO the short-term answer would be to tweak the mass lock mechanic to make "submit 'n' boost" far more difficult but also tweak the interdiction mechanic to make it a fairer fight. If you win you get away, but if you lose you lose and must expect to hand over cargo or fight. Having a second, sometimes easier, opportunity to run just makes people avoid the first one.

The long-term answer, for those Billy No-Mates occasional traders among us who would love to play more Open but can't rustle up enough real people to balance the 4-vs-1 scenarios that Wings introduced, is NPC wingmen. I'm kind of hoping we see the start of that with Powerplay but it's more likely a few updates away which is a shame.

I'd love to be able to hire a few of SJA's more aggressive little friends for those runs through the rares hubs.

 

[Shayde]

Put a Soviet era handheld anti tank RPG in the dinghy and you'll be scratching a lot more then paint.

Anyway if you want a durable merchant ship which can swat small things, there is the anaconda

I'm trying to get there, but for now the Type 9 is the best I can afford. I have to admit that I mainly play in PvE private group, or solo at the moment, and the reason for my original post was really just to say that if I had a few more options in place to defend myself then I'd probably move to open. Being able to bite back, even a little, would encourage me to do that

 

[Shayde]

I agree with pretty much everything above. Mined cargo and the like sound like fun and would arguably be fine in a single-player game, but in a multiplayer environment they'd be OP and lead to a ridiculous arms race.

Part of the problem as it stands is that the interdiction mechanic strongly favours the aggressor due to the way damage is inflicted upon the ships. The aggressor is already spoiling for a possible rumble and almost certainly flying a ship that's cheaper to repair than that of the target. There is very little point in a trade ship fighting an interdiction that they're more likely to lose anyway and that will cost them a fair chunk in repair bills. Far easier to do the old "submit 'n' boost" which wastes everyone's time and is likely to lead to the pirate getting the hump and simply trying to blast the trade ship before it can jump. Nobody wins.

IMO the short-term answer would be to tweak the mass lock mechanic to make "submit 'n' boost" far more difficult but also tweak the interdiction mechanic to make it a fairer fight. If you win you get away, but if you lose you lose and must expect to hand over cargo or fight. Having a second, sometimes easier, opportunity to run just makes people avoid the first one.

The long-term answer, for those Billy No-Mates occasional traders among us who would love to play more Open but can't rustle up enough real people to balance the 4-vs-1 scenarios that Wings introduced, is NPC wingmen. I'm kind of hoping we see the start of that with Powerplay but it's more likely a few updates away which is a shame.

I'd love to be able to hire a few of SJA's more aggressive little friends for those runs through the rares hubs.

Yeah, I agree with everything you've said there. It's funny, I was thinking about the issue of rustling up wingmen myself this morning. I used to mainly play sword and sorcery type multiplayer games before ED came out, and there were a couple there where you could hire NPC men at arms, and was thinking it would be good if a trader could hire a few wingmen for protection on the dangerous trade routes I'd settle for that actually. I'd happily spend some credits on protection each trade run. The only thing that fills me with dread is the idea of doing that with real players LOL. How many would wait until they got you out into the depths of interstellar space before turning rogue and pirating you ? I guess that's where reputations could be built, and honest, competent wingmen would be sought after and paid accordingly.

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

I do like the idea of combat drones. Some weak little mosquito ships that won't win a fight but might give you a better chance. I hate the other 3 ideas though.

Cargo mines will just force every trader to carry them, and force every pirate to kill them incase they are. It would only take me one or two deaths from them, and I'd start a kill all traders regardless policy.

FSD is kinda pointless as well, either it'll stop the interdiction or do nothing. A better idea would be to give the trader a better chance at escaping by making the minigame harder for the pirate. This game isn't about hard counters, they tend to make the game less fun imo.

The frame shift spoofer while a decent idea it's too powerful, a tool. It'll just become the standard for all traders, like shield boosters are now.

 

[Shayde]

What about a signal masker? Make your t9 look like an eagle or make your hauler look like a viper. Hmm, maybe not as big a difference as eagle and t9, but maybe just get a signal back saying small, medium or large ship? Have competitive modules, sensors vs masker?

Interesting idea ! Most of the things I suggested, and yours, would probably lead to an arms race, which may or may not be desirable reading the responses LOL. At the very least a one-upmanship situation could exist where, say, a very rich merchant could buy a high grade unit that would easily fool/outmatch a lower grade unit equipped by a less wealthy pirate. Or vice versa, the rich well equipped pirate would have sensors etc that would not be fooled by a lowly trader. That could all be very entertaining and exciting.

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I do like the idea of combat drones. Some weak little mosquito ships that won't win a fight but might give you a better chance. I hate the other 3 ideas though.

Cargo mines will just force every trader to carry them, and force every pirate to kill them incase they are. It would only take me one or two deaths from them, and I'd start a kill all traders regardless policy.

FSD is kinda pointless as well, either it'll stop the interdiction or do nothing. A better idea would be to give the trader a better chance at escaping by making the minigame harder for the pirate. This game isn't about hard counters, they tend to make the game less fun imo.

The frame shift spoofer while a decent idea it's too powerful, a tool. It'll just become the standard for all traders, like shield boosters are now.

Yeah, possibly. I just fired off a few thoughts that might make pirates think twice about attacking a trader. It's interesting to hear the replies about what any such things might lead to Thinking about what the end result of any change or new addition to the game would bring is something I find interesting.....and always good to hear other people's take on them to find things I hadn't thought about

 

[Hell Razor5543]

How about a signal emitting drone? You arrive in a system, launch the drone, and it then flies alongside you, emitting a signal that could be similar to the ones your ship generates (so it would appear to be 2 similar ships in a group), or dissimilar, so that you could appear to be in a trade vessel with a fighter escort, or vice versa. If the pirate pulls the drone out of SC the drone would then try and ram the pirate, while if you were pulled out of SC the drone would follow you out and again try ramming the pirate. If you get to your destination without incident the drone then docks with your ship, ready for next time.

 

[Shayde]

How about a signal emitting drone? You arrive in a system, launch the drone, and it then flies alongside you, emitting a signal that could be similar to the ones your ship generates (so it would appear to be 2 similar ships in a group), or dissimilar, so that you could appear to be in a trade vessel with a fighter escort, or vice versa. If the pirate pulls the drone out of SC the drone would then try and ram the pirate, while if you were pulled out of SC the drone would follow you out and again try ramming the pirate. If you get to your destination without incident the drone then docks with your ship, ready for next time.

Nice idea !

 

[Jack Schitt]

I'd happily spend some credits on protection each trade run. The only thing that fills me with dread is the idea of doing that with real players LOL. How many would wait until they got you out into the depths of interstellar space before turning rogue and pirating you ? I guess that's where reputations could be built, and honest, competent wingmen would be sought after and paid accordingly.

Back in the original Design Decision phase it was proposed that even NPC wingmen would have the opportunity to turn traitor and attack their patron if the conditions were right. So if you hired the "wrong" wingmen (e.g. an occasional ally of a rival faction) or did something to rile them up (switching to the slave trade, or engaging in murder) or even if you just crossed their morality threshold (carrying more palladium than they've ever seen in their virtual lives) they could turn on you.

I'm not sure now that the game will ever support anything quite so nuanced, although I'm happy to be proven wrong. But something in that direction would be cool.

The "final" proposal is here: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=14580. Note that the proposal limits NPC wingmen to 2 per player, which would need to be increased now that we have player Wings. Otherwise every encounter would become a 4-vs-3 furball with the player-only wing at a distinct advantage.