The Star Citizen Thread v 3.0

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Seriously I think the biggest crowd that thinks the Flight Model is broken is from the ED community. That could be because ED has a different flight model and everything that isn't like ED can be perceived as broken to ED players. I am following the SC news for years and years and the people who actually play AC all compliment the Flight Model and I do so too. Reason is simple. It's fun and it's realistic. It's also a work in progress with many things to be improved on even more. Until now I have not noticed any problem as I was flying that stemmed from the Flight model itself.

I think that sometimes there is some confusion over two separate issues, (perhaps not but that's the impression I sometimes get), the first issue is the flight model proper - i.e. how it feels to fly, the implementation of mass, intertia and thr way the ships actually move compared to the position of their thrusters. The second issue is that of controller balancing, i.e. the old chestnut about the mouse flight/aim combo.

The actual flight model, although not perfect, is pretty much fine as far as I am concerned, yes it needs more work, but is certainly on the road to being decent enough.
The mouse flight/aim combo thing is a different matter - while this is still in it's current state, I will not be playing multiplayer - simply because I feel it encourages the worst kind of gameplay behaviour, that being of revelling in stomping those who choose not to play in a Hornet with 6 gimbals and use a mouse to simply exploit the OP mechanics that are currently in place, then brag about it via leaderboards, and make fun of those they stomp. Now, that statement is all about how I 'feel' the game is currently set up, which I think gives it an environment like COD, I don't want to play in that kind of place.
 
I think that sometimes there is some confusion over two separate issues, (perhaps not but that's the impression I sometimes get), the first issue is the flight model proper - i.e. how it feels to fly, the implementation of mass, intertia and thr way the ships actually move compared to the position of their thrusters. The second issue is that of controller balancing, i.e. the old chestnut about the mouse flight/aim combo.

The actual flight model, although not perfect, is pretty much fine as far as I am concerned, yes it needs more work, but is certainly on the road to being decent enough.
The mouse flight/aim combo thing is a different matter - while this is still in it's current state, I will not be playing multiplayer - simply because I feel it encourages the worst kind of gameplay behaviour, that being of revelling in stomping those who choose not to play in a Hornet with 6 gimbals and use a mouse to simply exploit the OP mechanics that are currently in place, then brag about it via leaderboards, and make fun of those they stomp. Now, that statement is all about how I 'feel' the game is currently set up, which I think gives it an environment like COD, I don't want to play in that kind of place.

Honestly, if CIG would just separate flight/aim for the mouse, and finally get around to nerfing the maneuvering thrusters (which they have been talking about for quite some time), I really think the whole thing would be in a fairly decent place.

Now I still have faith that they will rebalance maneuvering thrusters, but at this point it's starting to look a bit unlikely that they will actually separate flight/aim for the mouse (given how long it has been like this, even with all the complaining). Of course if they actually nerf maneuvering thrusters enough, it might actually push the emphasis far enough towards flying vs. aiming, that it might actually be somewhat balanced that mouse users get to keep the current setup.
 
because of the simple fact that if I want to actually kill something I have to resolve to M and K and leave my hotas
It's like you are complaining about faster and more precise controller being faster and more precise. /s

What do you propose? Screwing up mouse control scheme so that it becomes worse than HOTAS?
 
It's like you are complaining about faster and more precise controller being faster and more precise. /s

What do you propose? Screwing up mouse control scheme so that it becomes worse than HOTAS?

Mouse control should be virtual joystick only. That is how space games have done it in the past.
 
Mouse control should be virtual joystick only. That is how space games have done it in the past.
That's literally how they are in both ED and SC. You move your mouse in a constrained space around origin, where X coordinate is yaw and Y coordinate is pitch.
 
Well, I consider that a way better idea than ED's auto-aim, so yay for them.

Not really. ED's ships maneuver more slowly (which I think is fitting due to the generally bigger size of those ships compared to what you fly in SC), and the gimbal is limited in both tracking speed and accuracy. Plus gimbaled weapons are usually a lot less powerful. In addition, Elite already has stealth, heat and chaff mechanics built in and working, while SC has yet to implement most of these things.

I gotta say though, fixed weapons in SC 1.1 are okay for me (Haven't tried 1.1.1 so I dunno whether they removed the 5 degree gimbaling from fixed weapons).
 
That's literally how they are in both ED and SC. You move your mouse in a constrained space around origin, where X coordinate is yaw and Y coordinate is pitch.

In ED you have a little arrow showing the direction of your mouse movement, your aim point is stationary dead centre of the screen. In SC you can place your aim point over an object (say an asteroid) and the ship auto pilots to that object.

Add on top of that gimbals . . .

[video=youtube;FAxbU14_eBA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAxbU14_eBA[/video]
 
Not really. ED's ships maneuver more slowly (which I think is fitting due to the generally bigger size of those ships compared to what you fly in SC), and the gimbal is limited in both tracking speed and accuracy. Plus gimbaled weapons are usually a lot less powerful. In addition, Elite already has stealth, heat and chaff mechanics built in and working, while SC has yet to implement most of these things.

I gotta say though, fixed weapons in SC 1.1 are okay for me (Haven't tried 1.1.1 so I dunno whether they removed the 5 degree gimbaling from fixed weapons).

The manual aim has to stay, but the coupled Gimbal guns control has to go. They should only allow 1 analogue movement axis per analogue control input axis.
 
In ED you have a little arrow showing the direction of your mouse movement, your aim point is stationary dead centre of the screen.
With fixed weapons it's exactly same in both games. With gimballs, in ED it's completely auto-aim while in SC you have to aim manually (which I find way more fun).

In SC you can place your aim point over an object (say an asteroid) and the ship auto pilots to that object.
Similar thing is achieved in ED with relative mouse controls.

There's nothing that prevents you from aiming with your stick, except that sticks are bad for aiming. So, don't use a controller that is bad for aiming, and for the love of god, don't ask developers to dumb down the game (auto-aim) just to pander to users of controllers that are bad for aiming.
 
The mouse flight/aim combo thing is a different matter - while this is still in it's current state, I will not be playing multiplayer - simply because I feel it encourages the worst kind of gameplay behaviour, that being of revelling in stomping those who choose not to play in a Hornet with 6 gimbals and use a mouse to simply exploit the OP mechanics that are currently in place, then brag about it via leaderboards, and make fun of those they stomp. Now, that statement is all about how I 'feel' the game is currently set up, which I think gives it an environment like COD, I don't want to play in that kind of place.

Welcome to why World Of Warplanes has, at most, 700 players online for the NA server at peak times.
 
With fixed weapons it's exactly same in both games. With gimballs, in ED it's completely auto-aim while in SC you have to aim manually (which I find way more fun).

Similar thing is achieved in ED with relative mouse controls.

There's nothing that prevents you from aiming with your stick, except that sticks are bad for aiming. So, don't use a controller that is bad for aiming, and for the love of god, don't ask developers to dumb down the game (auto-aim) just to pander to users of controllers that are bad for aiming.

Games in which you fly the ship to aim:

Elite: Dangerous, Wing Commander, Tie Fighter, Freespace

Games in which you aim to fly the ship:

Star Citizen, Freelancer, Strike Suit zero

Do you see the difference?
 
In ED you have a little arrow showing the direction of your mouse movement, your aim point is stationary dead centre of the screen. In SC you can place your aim point over an object (say an asteroid) and the ship auto pilots to that object.

Add on top of that gimbals . . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAxbU14_eBA

The joystick vs mouse/KB issue was heavily decided in favor of the mouse, in Warplanes, just for the precision fire reasons listed in the video. The airplane vector followed the mouse/weapons, allowing literally pinpoint accuracy. In Elite, the weapons follow the ship's vector, instead. The mouse is the infamous "turret" that Frontier has tried to avoid.

Elite makes you fly the airplane first, then shoot. The SC model is shoot, and the airplane follows.

- - - Updated - - -

The reason why no one plays WoWP is because it sucks and War Thunder exists.

In great part, it sucked because it was the red-headed stepchild of Wargaming. And, the devs started aping War Thunder's graphics with envy, instead of fixing the game.
 
I have huge respect for the ED forum and all their mods in here for allowing me so far to express my rights for freedom of speech.However lately seems like some posters making a pressure on mods to eliminate different opinion.I never ever swear/troll or insulted other's ppl. in here or anywhere else and yet seems like they get offended with my civilized responds making a mods to delete my post and to send me a warning mess.I guess the same ppl. that choke freedom of speech in they beloved forum now trying to do the same in here,I am not going to brag about it but with this post i just want you to know the reasons if you don't see me anymore in here as well.
 
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It's like you are complaining about faster and more precise controller being faster and more precise. /s

What do you propose? Screwing up mouse control scheme so that it becomes worse than HOTAS?

I simply dont like the fact that mouse controls are better than HOTAs ones in a space flight "sim" game. Imagine that you are playing Asseto Corsa with racing wheel but suddenly you realized that the
WSAD controls works better. When I`m using HOTAs I can immerse my self better into the game - my virtual pilot has HOTAS in his ship, not a mouse. I do not have any solution for it, I`m just stating that I dont enjoy space sims with mouse and keyboard.
 
There's nothing that prevents you from aiming with your stick, except that sticks are bad for aiming. So, don't use a controller that is bad for aiming, and for the love of god, don't ask developers to dumb down the game (auto-aim) just to pander to users of controllers that are bad for aiming.

The thing is, most/all space sims (including SC as pitched on inception) are based, balanced and brought to life around the notion of flight skill, not aiming skill. Or - to put it another way - aiming almost always plays second fiddle to piloting. The very low TTK that AC has currently, coupled with the importance of aiming (to the point that - as you say - controller balance is almost impossible) has produced an end result for many backers that is both incompatible with what CR pitched for the game at start and "dumbed down" as a dogfighting experience.

The only thing that salvages the current situation imo is that the single seat fighters are unrealistically maneuverable, thus somewhat dampening the effect gimbaled aiming mechanics have on the dogfighting experience. But that is another discussion altogether.

So, let me make a hypothetical question. Lets say that suddenly SC single seaters don't have ANY form of gimbaled mounts (player or computer controlled). It is evident that game complexity goes down. What happens to game depth though?

Food for thought.

[video=youtube;jVL4st0blGU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVL4st0blGU[/video]

and

http://gamedesignadvance.com/?p=407
 
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