Sex, Gender, and (Imperial) Titles

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Yeah, and replace commander with commanderess while we're at it.

Protip: equality is not about being special, it's about being equal. Ranks have no gender for that matter. Again, look at current ranks in armies and navies.

Again with referring to organisations that are historically quite sexist. Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_the_military These comments like "Oh, just look at tradition and history and do whatever has been done before" are such ludicrous nonsense. You lot think there's more fairness to calling a woman "sir" if she's not allowed to serve where the poor, unequal men do? Again, for the nth time, "baroness" is a word. A known word. A common word. "Commanderess" is not common and would likely not be recognised as a valid word by most. "Baron" is also a common, known word. Known as being the male equivalent to "baroness." I don't know how to make any of this more clear. Please, no more nonsense made up on the spot just for the sake of telling somebody off.

Additional point: as has also been previously mentioned, the Empire uses titles rather than military style ranks. You're saying "Look, militaries use different words in different ways, so this thing is completely fine!" as if that makes any sense.
 
Players using slang terms for female parts as insults for one, players referring to "weakness" (perceived or actual) by calling someone a "girl" and other such things.
How about when players openly talk about women in rude, derogatory manners? And other such behaviour.

That's just equality at work. Ever heard of Wheaton's Law? It uses that wording for a reason; there are plenty of slang insults derived from words applying to both genders. When you start saying it's OK to use male words as insults but not female, that's the very opposite of equality and veering towards positive discrimination (which is just as bad at the best of times, and patronising at the worst).
 
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Bonus for gender agnostic terms: not everyone is strictly male xor female. This is true whether you take that as a statement about sex or one about gender.

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Additionally, this is getting quite a bit silly.

'male xor female'. Bitwise programmer? I like it. ++rep.
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Silly, yes, but funny too.
This game is a work of fantasy, sci-fi fantasy at that. I cannot find any argument not to accede to a request from a player to have titles of status and privilege that reflect the gender / sex they wish to play as in order to fulfil a role in a fantasy game, be it 'Prince' or 'Princess' or any other form of title of status and privilege.
In the fantasy game called Elite Dangerous we have the fiction of a group called the Imperial Empire that has legal slavery, Princesses, Princes, Barons etc. It does not seem logical, from game lore (Galnet mentions a princess), to not have a reputation status of Princess for a player seeking progression with the Imperial faction.
I hope you get your wish Princess.
 
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Don't want to wade into the argument but just wanted to +1 the OP and say that I totally agree.

Ok - wading in a little bit (can't help myself!). This is not, perhaps, the highest priority 'bug' but it should be dealt with. If somebody pointed out that the game was employing racial bias in language then it would get changed ASAP; sex/sexual orientation/gender enjoy equal protection in law (in the UK anyway) and should be treated as equally important (alongside race, religion, etc and all the 'protected' characteristics).
 
That's just equality at work. Ever heard of Wheaton's Law? It uses that wording for a reason; there are plenty of slang insults derived from words applying to both genders. When you start saying it's OK to use male words as insults but not female, that's the very opposite of equality and veering towards positive discrimination (which is just as bad at the best of times, and patronising at the worst).

I never said it was OK to use male words as insults. I said if you want gamers who happen to be women, to feel more at home - then worrying about titles is not the most important thing to be looking at, male > female interactions / behaviour is way higher on the list of things women find offensive in video games.

Also, "equality" should not be one gender lowering their standards to another - both sides should be encouraging each other to do better, not see who can sink the lowest (my opinion).
 
When a word is said in general, it's default gender is male.
Everything in the game is said in general.
It's not about the game. It's about language.

Please forward your complain to the Queen of England.
 
I also support the OP's point and I wish this will be fixed soon.

Also, when we eventually get multiple character profiles, I do hope that we can choose which ones are male and which are female (i.e. it is not a _graphics option_).
 
I never said it was OK to use male words as insults. I said if you want gamers who happen to be women, to feel more at home - then worrying about titles is not the most important thing to be looking at, male > female interactions / behaviour is way higher on the list of things women find offensive in video games.

Also, "equality" should not be one gender lowering their standards to another - both sides should be encouraging each other to do better, not see who can sink the lowest (my opinion).

1 - Insults are a part of gaming - in fact, they're a part of any competitive activity (try hanging around with a women's rugby team for a little while if you don't believe me...they're much worse than the guys). Being more at home is simply a case of applying that principle equally regardless of gender.

2 - Sure - you might prefer a world in which mudslinging is more a case of "Good morrow, Sir/Madame - I would appreciate it if you would desist from firing in my general direction, lest I be forced to tell your mother/father when I visit his/her boudoir this evening", but let's face it...it's not going to happen, because of #1. Some of us (including my daughter, who's also a gamer) actually prefer it that way.
 
I thought this was about ethics in gaming journalism? ;)


But seriously, my sister insists that she studied to become a "Doctor", not a "Doctress". In german this is made worse by the fact that there are "female versions" of almost everything.

It has gotten to the point where a woman actually complained that the german word for "Stallion" (Hengst) was not gendered during the TV coverage of a horseriding tournament.


That said, feudal titles like Baron and such were pretty much always gendered. I think this would fit with the lore and the whole idea of an empire. Ranks such as "Ensign" however? No. What would that be? Ensignesse? Ensignette?
 
The first thing we need to do, is learn to respect other gamers regardless of who they are.
Exactly...

Also, just some food for though: If a game makes you feel "unwelcome" just because it, arguably doesn't "represent" you specifically, then maybe the problem isn't with the game? I know, people don't tend to think like that these days, but still...

As long as there is no real impact on the game (even in terms of pure esthetics), I don't see why FD should waste time with stuff like pilot gender... especially as long as the pilot is just a headless model in the cockpit no one else can even see.

That being said: It would make sense for some of the (non military rank) titles to be gendered at some point IF that's in line with the lore of the game...
 
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When a word is said in general, it's default gender is male.
Everything in the game is said in general.
It's not about the game. It's about language.

Please forward your complain to the Queen of England.

It is about language.

The correct language is baroness, countess, viscountess.

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I thought this was about ethics in gaming journalism? ;)


But seriously, my sister insists that she studied to become a "Doctor", not a "Doctress". In german this is made worse by the fact that there are "female versions" of almost everything.

It has gotten to the point where a woman actually complained that the german word for "Stallion" (Hengst) was not gendered during the TV coverage of a horseriding tournament.


That said, feudal titles like Baron and such were pretty much always gendered. I think this would fit with the lore and the whole idea of an empire. Ranks such as "Ensign" however? No. What would that be? Ensignesse? Ensignette?

None of the federation ranks have feminine forms in English. So no, there's no such thing as ensigness. Because there's no such word. Just like doctor has no masculine or feminine form. It's gender neutral in English.

Baroness, countess, lady and so on are real words. And using the masculine form as a title prefix for a female is incorrect English. It's that simple. And I don't tell the French that their gender specific nouns can be used interchangeably. Because I'd be wrong.

The argument that language will change by 3300 is null and void. It's indeed incredibly likely that the English language will change. By the year 3300 it will likely be completely different and unrecognisable compared to contemporary English.

However, FD have, obviously, chosen not to confuse us all by predicting how language may change over the next millenia and are using the exact same language as we use today.

So the idea that this single construct of the English language is the only change and FD deliberately applied it is a huge stretch.

It's incorrect English. It should be changed, eventually. Anyone arguing against this can do so as much as they like but they're wrong.
 
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Fact, those aren't male gender titles, they're simply classes of nobility or simple titles that can be used by both genders in many cultures (earl > jarl > jarl elisif). Of course some cultures have relegated one term or another to refer to males/females. It's almost as if the same word can have different meanings in different societies. Perhaps you should suggest completely reworking the Federal ranks as well, considering many cultures have had male only militaries in the past. We wouldn't want to make any pacifistic female players feel moral conflict in this fictional universe with only distant ties to the present, now would we?

The fact is, those titles are masculine titles in English. In English those titles should be adjusted for gender. There are periods of history in England when it's likely that calling a duchess "duke" would be considered a serious insult and could have gotten you a beating or worse. If I were playing the game in Old Persian I'd expect the game to use the Old Persian equivalents of those titles and if there were no feminine forms then I wouldn't expect to see any. But we're not talking about Old Persian or any other translation, we're talking about English.

If you think it doesn't matter then I assume you'd be fine with Frontier converting all the titles to the feminine form?

The word "Senatrix" was lost because it's Latin, and the English language cherry picks words from many different languages as it needs. Not everything has to be the result of "male power".

When "senator" was adopted into English women were not allowed to vote or to stand for elected office. So yes, the lack of a feminine form is very much the result of "male power". In fact there is an English feminine form, "senatress", which dates back to the 18th century. It apparently disappeared due to lack of use. But "duchess", "countess", etc are not obsolete or unused forms.
 
If you think it doesn't matter then I assume you'd be fine with Frontier converting all the titles to the feminine form?
I know you weren't replying directly to me... But yes, I would be fine with this. Using the same arguments I've already used. In 3300, gender equality is ingrained in the system - the names of ranks/titles are neutral, and I personally don't care what they are. Call me Duchess if you like, I won't have a problem with it.
 
I honestly don't see why the title cant change according to what gender you have picked so if you are a male character Baron would be picked and for female it just changes it to Baroness. a simple solution that shouldnt take barely any time at all
 
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