Money and ships - got to be more to it.

[JesusOnEez]

I come from old Elite and am very pleased with what we've got so far, whilst also looking forward (with some trepidation) to what 1.3 and beyond has in store for us.

I can understand people getting bored, I really can, and you do need to set yourself goals otherwise you'll go nuts. I've had the game for 4 weeks, only playing about 10 hours a week if I'm lucky.

1. I did some missions and checked out trading from Eravate (where I started). Got enough money for a few upgrades.
2. Did a bit of bounty hunting, made some money, upgraded weapons, got interdicted and blown up.
3. After a while, I've got a nicely kitted Sidey with Beam and Cannon and I started bounty hunting. Did that for a while.
4. Bought a Hauler. Did a couple of trade runs, hated the ship and went back to the Sidey to make money for an Adder.
5. Got Adder, traded rares for a few evening and bought myself a Cobra.

Now, I don't consider that I've even started yet. I haven't done any mining or exploring. I've no real interest in making money for enormous ships. I've got the ship I set out to get as a first goal. Now I'm going to trade rares, get the gear I need to explore and set off for the galaxy's edge. Once I've done that, I'll have made some money as a by product of what I wanted to do, so I'll probably kit my Cobra to the max, and work on raising my ranks in the Federation, then Imperial, then Alliance.

PowerPlay will likely be here by then, and I still haven't tried mining.

I might then lend myself out as escort for traders in open play, experiencing some of what Wings has to offer for a while.

I might then go pirating.

None of this is really about the money. I set a goal, and yes, I need money to reach that goal, but the goal isn't the money or possessions, it's enabling me to do other things. It's about role playing my way into the career of an explorer or whatever.

Now, as an aside, there are players with mountains of money whole will drop cargo for newbies to give them a jump start. I don't get this. Half the fun was getting the Cobra myself. It's a sense of achievement that I wouldn't have got if another player had effectively bought it for me. Still, that's just me.

So...set yourself some goals, don't wait for the game to do it for you.

EDIT: If I had to say that I had an 'end' game goal, it's probably to own all the ships fully kitted out. The rate I play it, this'll probably take years, never mind what extra bits FD give us in the meantime! Good money's worth.

 

[lilikin]

See, it's just this sort of low level abuse that makes people thing it is ok. You don't even seem to recognise the term as abusive.

Abusive? You really need to check your assumed outrage. There is a reason words like abuse exist, it is because they describe very extreme activities, attaching it to a thread when I was warning someone there was a good chance of just getting flamed off the forums for sharing his genuine concerns. Attaching words like abuse to try and inflate the outrage just undermines how awful genuine forms of abuse are.

 

[puca]

Sadist.

I don't know, I have one insurance claim so far, and I haven't been very careful (asteroid plant). Flying a conda now... Trading and exploration in PvE groups and solo are very safe.

 

[Ydiss]

You forgot to activate your Fanboi shield.
.
While I don't disagree, lets see what PP brings to the game, missions and factions wise

He might have forgotten his fanboi shield. But the rest of us have worn out our "broken record" shield

 

[Morbad]

ED is arguably quite limited in depth of gameplay at the moment.

I think because of this it seems to be the case there are loads of players now with piles of money (far more than they will ever need) and loads of high powered ships (far more than they will ever need), and probably these people will soon lose interest in the game by not having any goals to keep them playing.

Depth is more than what toys you have and a substantial portion, probably the overwhelming majority of CMDRs, haven't exhausted the potential, or the depth, of any given ship yet.

If someone's goal is to simply accrue cash at the most rapid pace possible, buy all the things, and then call it quits, that's fine, but it's not evidence of lack of gameplay.

Should these individuals become bored before even scratching the surface of what they can do, I bid them good fortune in finding something more suited to their tastes.

People claim E|D is a sandbox, but I've never found anything resembling 'sand'. Really? Yes, really. We can't build anything, we can't create our own stations. We can't build our own ships, or upgrades, or anything at all.

To everyone claiming: this is a sandbox, it's different.. where is the 'sand', then?

The sand isn't ships or stations, it's people, politics, and economics.

You can't build a station, but you can initiate or contribute to events that influence the actions of others.

 

[fourty6to3]

Most people aren't expecting a "themepark" game. They get the idea of a sandbox and are just looking for some meaning/long term goals etc

Edit: It's not the 80s anymore

This is quite a profound statement, considering that there are those around here who would like to keep the game back in the 80's. The credit grinding loop is something that I've been whining about for months now and told that I just lack imagination. I'm an Alpha backer, and ironically back in Alpha my imagination was going wild, just picturing how vast and deep the universe was going to be on launch. But that day never really came. When Alpha 4 hit and FD introduced the "gameplay loop", I thought it was just going to be a placeholder/first iteration. I didn't think that it was going to be the game for the next year. So now what? I'm supposed to pretend the game is more/deeper than what it really is? It's not the 80's anymore.

Will 1.3 be the savior patch? I guess we'll know when we play it. But so far all it seems to do is bring the CG system to the factions, which is good. But that's only fixing a symptom of a larger disease. There's really nothing meaningful beyond the Powers. When DB talked about the richness of the universe, he made it seem like there was going to be so much geopolitics going on that you could spend an entire "career" playing inside only a handful of systems. But when you get down to it, it's only credits credits credits. One giant copy/paste 3D text adventure. It's not the 80's anymore.

Combat (be it pirating or BH), Trading, Exploration --->> Credits. There needs to be more to do beyond credits, there needs to be meaningful outcomes to your actions. There needs to be something meaningful to spend your credits ON beyond buying better equipment to be faster at earning credits.

Sorry, I could say more but I'll stop there.

 

[Ydiss]

People claim E|D is a sandbox, but I've never found anything resembling 'sand'. Really? Yes, really. We can't build anything, we can't create our own stations. We can't build our own ships, or upgrades, or anything at all.

To everyone claiming: this is a sandbox, it's different.. where is the 'sand', then? What makes this a game where the player can do whatever they want?

I mean, we can't even make our own ammunition from metals we collect via mining. We can't even repair our ships from metals we collect via mining. Those two things would be the first two grains of 'sand' letting players play as they wish. Never mind things like atmosphere collection/replenishment and similar which, combined with the first two, might actually let a pilot live on their own, or wherever they wanted to.

Dwarf Fortress does completely procedural everything, including history, quests/missions, landscape, politics, jobs, preferences, and more. Even 10% of the procedural storytelling, per system, would be so much better than what there is now.

Finally, hiring NPC's to do what you want is the way you create the first tier of PvP interaction. You make direct player interaction rare, special, and consensual. Player->NPC->Player? No-one cares if NPC's interact with them. You could have that in the game, with appropriate limits, for everyone, no more solo/open. But FDEV is still living in the 80's. So much lost potential, it's sad.

Sandbox as a genre existed a long time before minecraft. And building something is not a required feature.

 

[PotatoOverdose]

making money and buying ships.

I like killing commanders and exploring.

But hey, if missions are your thing, goody for you! There's an entire massive update dedicated to that coming out soon (probably within the next 2-3 weeks).

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

ED is arguably quite limited in depth of gameplay at the moment.

I think because of this it seems to be the case there are loads of players now with piles of money (far more than they will ever need) and loads of high powered ships (far more than they will ever need), and probably these people will soon lose interest in the game by not having any goals to keep them playing..

I do see where you are coming from and is one reason why i never sell any old ship, which slows my progress down some what.... artificially increasing my play time? maybe but I never upgrade a ship until I am bored of the one I am in. I must be 200hrs in so far and still only just got my clipper. Even then sometimes its nice just to dig out an old ship and do a few missions in it etc

I am looking forward to a more complex mission generator however, and more interesting exploration and mining mechanics

 

[Morbad]

I must be 200hrs in so far and still only just got my clipper.

At this point, I have almost 200 hours in an FDL and probably close to 400 in a Viper.

I'd need to add another 0 to the end of each of these figures before I'd likely feel I'd mastered these ships and fully explored the depths of what they are capable of.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

You had it easy- I had to carry THREE tonnes of grain a whole 8LY!

I have to agree with you here. Even though I love the game, ranking up is a complete missed opportunity at the moment.

imo to have to level up the higher tiers we should have to be joining the military and flying out in military specced craft (not our own) and carrying out multiple missions imo, sort of wing commander style, and really proving ourselves on the battle front, either as a fighter pilot or running tonnes of supplies though a warzone to keep one side topped up.

the simple deliver 3 tons of food should be real low level stuff.

I think it is possible to see what a great game we have so far, and enjoy it immensely and yet still see that it is so wide of the mark content wise in some places at the moment.

At this point, I have almost 200 hours in an FDL and probably close to 400 in a Viper.

I'd need to add another 0 to the end of each of these figures before I'd likely feel I'd mastered these ships and fully explored the depths of what they are capable of.

given my game time it is unlikely I will ever be able to spend that much time in the elite world. kudos too you however, I hope we never meet on opposing sides of the battlefield

Truth is with no timer in game I have probably spend WAY more time than I think. (hint to devs can we have a time played in the stats please?)

 

[puca]

I have sank quite a bit of time into the game, and I feel like there is still a ton to do! I have gone to Sag A* and back in my asp, learned to trade efficiently (and earned an anaconda in the process), and even dipped my feet in combat with a vulture. This took me many hundreds of hours of gameplay!

I have yet to work on my factions, or learn to pilot ships efficiently in combat (I am told the vulture is very forgiving, while the FDL, though fast and powerful, is also difficult to learn).

I think it is imagination fail on the part of people that are whining about lack of content. There could certainly be more, but there is plenty to do now, too.

---

If you say things like "well this is boring and that is boring," maybe that means this kind of flight sim isn't for you?

 

[Morbad]

given my game time it is unlikely I will ever be able to spend that much time in the elite world.

Nothing wrong with this at all. I'd still enjoy the game even if I didn't have as much time for it.

I was just illustrating that even when it comes to the basics like ship and outfitting there is content deeper than just buying a vessel, some modules, and flying a few missions. I'm always learning something new, pushing the limits of what I can do.

 

[Pendra]

There are weapon and gear choices galore.

Let me see.
Beams: Pulse lasers, Burst lasers and Beam lasers.
Kinetic: gatling, cannon, railgun, plasma, fragment.
Self propelled: rocket, missile and torpedo.

So 11 weapon systems doing 2 types of damage. Self propelled are pointless, so never used. This leaves 8. Fragment, useless. 7.
Tier 1, no plasma. Tier 2, no burst. Tier 3, no railgun or gatling. So the galore of weapons consists of 6 items.

For the modules, cookie cutter A-E.
E is basic, D is light, C is average, B is shielded but heavy, A is powerful but expensive. E and B is practically useless. So D for systems not so important for your build. C and later A for important systems.

KWS: Default if you pew-pew
Point defence: useless
Cargo scanner: useless
Docking comp: useless
Shield boost: installed if you have space
ECM: useless
Chaff: installed if you have space
Heat sink: good for explorers, for others, useless
Auto Repair system: for explorers only, for others, useless
Discovery scanners: for explorers only, for others, useless
Cargo rack: max size that fits, anything else, useless
Shield cells: limited usefulness. It can be replaced by pure speed.
Limpets: For pirates only, for others useless
Interdictors: For pirates and some bounty hunters only, for others useless
Mining lasers: For miners only, for others useless
Refinery: For miners only, for others useless
Fuel scoop: For explorers or long range traders. For others, mostly useless (fuel is cheap, refuel bases are abundant)
Hull reinforcement: Useless.

For each profession there are 3-5 specific items over the main ship modules and that is it. I don't see the galore of items.

The shield boost is the only item that provides some customization for your kit.
What if I wanted to spec in a weaker but faster recharge shield?
What if I wanted to spec a weapon to be more efficient on long range?
What if I wanted to spec a weapon to be brutal on short range and useless on long?
What if I wanted to stock ammo in my empty cargo holds?
...
Star Trek Online, which is advertised as a Theme park game from the start, has better customization options than this sandbox.

 

[puca]

E is basic, D is light, C is average, B is shielded but heavy, A is powerful but expensive. E and B is practically useless. So D for systems not so important for your build. C and later A for important systems.

Docking comp: useless
Chaff: installed if you have space
Heat sink: good for explorers, for others, useless
Auto Repair system: for explorers only, for others, useless
Shield cells: limited usefulness. It can be replaced by pure speed.

I don't necessarily disagree with your last sentence, but I quoted parts of your message that aren't right. B modules are not useless at all. Docking comp is not useless at all for traders still learning heavy ships, or traders that want a little break from the grind during docking. Chaff is crucial in pvp. Heat sinks are useful for smugglers and can be useful in pvp if you want to disappear from sensors. AFMUs see some non-exploration use. Shield cells are crucial in pvp. Do you pvp? A lot of the stuff you didn't get right is pvp-related.

Maybe don't talk about customization if you don't know what the point of a lot of the stuff is?

 

[Morbad]

the simple deliver 3 tons of food should be real low level stuff.

While I do agree the pace and difficulty of advancement missions could use some refinement, I don't think the basic nature of these missions or the tasks required is necessarily a problem.

If you read between the lines, most of these missions are quite sensitive in nature, and a delivery mission takes on an entirely different aspect after you realize the implications of the delivery, that there are powerful forces who would rather not see the package get where it's going, and that your ability to complete the mission discretely, without complaint, while still realizing these things is what is actually being tested here...not just your ability to carry three tons of crap from point A to point B.

Of course, the game doesn't yet have the versatility to explore this potential...and surely FD is hesitant to try to implement it, given the number of players that have, rather ironically, complained about any extra extra depth or any need for any sort of deductive reasoning.

I recall a thread where someone was complaining about becoming wanted because they murdered a general during a black op! Really, you just murdered a high ranking member of your own organization in regulated space and are surprised it's quite a bit less than legal?

It has to be seriously tricky to balance depth when much of what is offered goes right over the heads, or under the noses, of so many.

 

[Ydiss]

Let me see.
Beams: Pulse lasers, Burst lasers and Beam lasers.
Kinetic: gatling, cannon, railgun, plasma, fragment.
Self propelled: rocket, missile and torpedo.

So 11 weapon systems doing 2 types of damage. Self propelled are pointless, so never used. This leaves 8. Fragment, useless. 7.
Tier 1, no plasma. Tier 2, no burst. Tier 3, no railgun or gatling. So the galore of weapons consists of 6 items.

For the modules, cookie cutter A-E.
E is basic, D is light, C is average, B is shielded but heavy, A is powerful but expensive. E and B is practically useless. So D for systems not so important for your build. C and later A for important systems.

KWS: Default if you pew-pew
Point defence: useless
Cargo scanner: useless
Docking comp: useless
Shield boost: installed if you have space
ECM: useless
Chaff: installed if you have space
Heat sink: good for explorers, for others, useless
Auto Repair system: for explorers only, for others, useless
Discovery scanners: for explorers only, for others, useless
Cargo rack: max size that fits, anything else, useless
Shield cells: limited usefulness. It can be replaced by pure speed.
Limpets: For pirates only, for others useless
Interdictors: For pirates and some bounty hunters only, for others useless
Mining lasers: For miners only, for others useless
Refinery: For miners only, for others useless
Fuel scoop: For explorers or long range traders. For others, mostly useless (fuel is cheap, refuel bases are abundant)
Hull reinforcement: Useless.

For each profession there are 3-5 specific items over the main ship modules and that is it. I don't see the galore of items.

The shield boost is the only item that provides some customization for your kit.
What if I wanted to spec in a weaker but faster recharge shield?
What if I wanted to spec a weapon to be more efficient on long range?
What if I wanted to spec a weapon to be brutal on short range and useless on long?
What if I wanted to stock ammo in my empty cargo holds?
...
Star Trek Online, which is advertised as a Theme park game from the start, has better customization options than this sandbox.

Yet I still see edshipyard sets that are new or unique.

I'll be the first to agree the mission system is severely lacking (hence 1.3). But I flat out disagree the outfitting system is lacking. It can (and will) be made better but it's not a weak point of the game.

Even the modest reviews agree with that.

 

[Pendra]

The heaviest transport I have is a T6. I land it in 45 secs counting from the moment I arrive and type in the docking request. How can you get into a heavy ship without learning how to dock?

Chaff: installed if you have the space. If your opponent is good, chaff will make no difference. He either runs fixed or can un-target you and use the gimbals as fixed. If your opponent is bad, chaff will help little, you will have the upper hand anyway.

Heat sinks: silent running has little benefit for normal ships. I have illicit cargo 99% of the time. Never ever needed silent running. I just hit boost 2x. Silent running will not make you invisible. CMDRs will still be able to see and fire upon you.

Auto repair: Can't repair canopy and power plant, the 2 most important modules. I don't care if my sensors are at 100% when I have no air and 6 mins before I die. Engine or anything else can be quick fixed using Reboot and repair and then fully fixed after docking.

Where or why would you use a B module, can you give me an example? I can't think any. Maybe at and game, where the price difference between B and A is huge and speed is not an issue.

Shield cells: I PVP a lot more than PVE and I never use them. When my shields wear out, that is a good sign to get out of harms way. If my shields are weak and the other's shields are still ok, that means I'm out of my league. 4 shield cell will not fix that, especially if the other guy has 4 as well.

 

[lilikin]

While I do agree the pace and difficulty of advancement missions could use some refinement, I don't think the basic nature of these missions or the tasks required is necessarily a problem.

If you read between the lines, most of these missions are quite sensitive in nature, and a delivery mission takes on an entirely different aspect after you realize the implications of the delivery, that there are powerful forces who would rather not see the package get where it's going, and that your ability to complete the mission discretely, without complaint, while still realizing these things is what is actually being tested here...not just your ability to carry three tons of crap from point A to point B.

Of course, the game doesn't yet have the versatility to explore this potential...and surely FD is hesitant to try to implement it, given the number of players that have, rather ironically, complained about any extra extra depth or any need for any sort of deductive reasoning.

I recall a thread where someone was complaining about becoming wanted because they murdered a general during a black op! Really, you just murdered a high ranking member of your own organization in regulated space and are surprised it's quite a bit less than legal?

It has to be seriously tricky to balance depth when much of what is offered goes right over the heads, or under the noses, of so many.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying but, with courier missions. A) You need to carry a "package" of sorts not just a generic good and B) If someone is after say some documents then surely they will generate an encounter with some interceptors trying to rip you out of super cruise and pump you full of molten lead.
.
A bit of text doesn't make you feel like you are doing what it should feel like, The first time I completed a courier mission in game I was worried I wouldn't complete it (Original Eliter here). The reality was because I had mastered landing in the simulator before even creating a character all that feeling of danger just didn't happen time 2-100. little nuggets of story needs backing up with a change in dynamics.

 

[Ydiss]

The heaviest transport I have is a T6. I land it in 45 secs counting from the moment I arrive and type in the docking request. How can you get into a heavy ship without learning how to dock?

Chaff: installed if you have the space. If your opponent is good, chaff will make no difference. He either runs fixed or can un-target you and use the gimbals as fixed. If your opponent is bad, chaff will help little, you will have the upper hand anyway.

Heat sinks: silent running has little benefit for normal ships. I have illicit cargo 99% of the time. Never ever needed silent running. I just hit boost 2x.

Auto repair: Can't repair canopy and power plant, the 2 most important modules. I don't care if my sensors are at 100% when I have no air and 6 mins before I die. Engine or anything else can be quick fixed using Reboot and repair and then fully fixed after docking.

Where or why would you use a B module, can you give me an example? I can't think any. Maybe at and game, where the price difference between B and A is huge and speed is not an issue.

Shield cells: I PVP a lot more than PVE and I never use them. When my shields wear out, that is a good sign to get out of harms way. If my shields are weak and the other's shields are still ok, that means I'm out of my league. 4 shield cell will not fix that, especially if the other guy has 4 as well.

Thanks for the feedback. Some of it I agree with. Most not. But this is what FD need. Feedback.