Capital ship kill stealing - A solution?

[Mnemoch]

I like the idea of warping in and out, and removing the last hit mechanic. Simple and easy fix. I had proposed having the ships move but this sounds easier to implement.

To Arubeto, I agree its not all about the money; but this is not a flight sim without credits. The game rewards players with credits as a way of keeping score, and to have my reward snatched away at the last second is very frustrating to me. It IS fun flying with a cap ship, weaving behind it, having to be careful not to hit it! Etc. But at it's most basic, the vast majority of games from PacMan to Pinball to Cribbage to Elite having a scoring mechanism; and this one in my opinion is currently broken.

 

[Poseidal]

I'm not sure what you mean exactly. If I do most of the damage to a ship, taking shields down and 90% of it's hull, and then the cap ship turns it's attention to it on the last few percent so I don't get a combat bond, how is that being rewarded?

So is what you are all saying is that we should just enjoy the capital ship taking all the combat bonds and kills. No one should enter these high intensity conflict zones with capital ships to earn combat bonds? Is it truly the death of earning combat bonds in capital ship zones?

Surely there must be some compromise we can mostly agree on. Suggestions so far:

• Reducing the combat bond based on damage contributed, and reducing the combat rating received.
• Have the cap ship move around the zone.
• Have the cap ship warp out periodically.

It was more true the other way around. Mostly the Capital ship does the damage and then someone who tagged it got the kill.

While it could be changed, making it percentage based is a lot more hassle to implement.

I would actually want to have bigger rewards for routing a capital ship. If there is a problem, it is that gives a pathetic reward, and is something FD should put more priority into fixing. There is no glory in having a big bully ship come around killing the enemy, and if you did most of the work, why would you want the capital ship around anyway?

 

[Forrseti]

Capital ships should be dangerous, they should be lethal. Don't nerf the capital ship and don't reward players for enemies the capital ship kills. I agree with all that. I think the enemies should warp in farther from the capital ship so there is a fight a little ways out and if you need to get something off your tail, you turn and run to the capital ship. There is no reason I should be fighting an anaconda - because I want that juicy 36k bond, not for fun of dog fighting an anaconda NPC - I get it down to 10% hull and the capital ship starts firing at it, and I get nothing. I've been struggling with this issue for a few days now after finding the conflict zones I am currently fighting in and have changed to partnering with a friend in a low intensity combat zone, it's much more lucrative but not as fun as the high intensity zones.

 

[Vihear]

I think it might be helpful to know how getting a kill is calculated now, and how it was before? How does/did that work exactly? And, for comparison, how does it work when more than one CMDR shoot an NPC?

 

[Mnemoch]

It was more true the other way around. Mostly the Capital ship does the damage and then someone who tagged it got the kill.

While it could be changed, making it percentage based is a lot more hassle to implement.

I would actually want to have bigger rewards for routing a capital ship. If there is a problem, it is that gives a pathetic reward, and is something FD should put more priority into fixing. There is no glory in having a big bully ship come around killing the enemy, and if you did most of the work, why would you want the capital ship around anyway?

But we are fighting on the same side as the capital ship! Chasing it away doesn't help in this case. And yes the ship does a lot of damage, but so do the cops in RES zones and there isn't an issue there.. The only problem was AFK turret camping, nothing else was an issue. To fix that issue alone making the ship move, or as I now prefer, warp out and back on a timer; would have been extremely simple without changing anything else.

 

[Vincent Starson]

There is no glory in having a big bully ship come around killing the enemy, and if you did most of the work, why would you want the capital ship around anyway?

Because it used to be fun. Now it isn't fun. Commanders are avoiding capital ship zones as a way to earn bonds, and that's a shame.

Don't you see how the change has negatively affected non-exploiting players? I just was hoping we could discuss ideas that would satisfy the majority of players. Let us earn bonds again, but prevent AFK exploiting somehow.

 

[Vincent Starson]

I think it might be helpful to know how getting a kill is calculated now, and how it was before? How does/did that work exactly? And, for comparison, how does it work when more than one CMDR shoot an NPC?

How it worked before: If you tag an enemy ship with any amount of damage within a certain time limit before it died, say 10-20 seconds I think it was, you would get credit for the kill and the combat bond. Even if the capital ship did 99% of the work.

How it works now: If the capital ship tags an enemy ship with any amount of damage as the last hit, no matter the amount of damage to the enemy ship that you contributed, the capital ship gets the kill and bond. The commander gets nothing. Note that capital ships have more guns than you, and it will likely be shooting a constant stream of flak making it hard to get the last hit even while focusing on said ship.

How it works when a commander shoots an NPC without capital ship: Same as how it used to work for capital ships, if an enemy npc got the last shot you'd still get the bond / bounty / combat rating if you tagged the ship some 10-15 seconds before it died.

Does anyone have any other suggestions?

 

[Arubeto]

To Arubeto, I agree its not all about the money; but this is not a flight sim without credits. The game rewards players with credits as a way of keeping score, and to have my reward snatched away at the last second is very frustrating to me. It IS fun flying with a cap ship, weaving behind it, having to be careful not to hit it! Etc. But at it's most basic, the vast majority of games from PacMan to Pinball to Cribbage to Elite having a scoring mechanism; and this one in my opinion is currently broken.

I can relate to your argument. A scoring mechanism to keep track of your performance is something that can be useful and rewarding. I also think the presence of virtual memory mostly takes this "score" role in a game like ED, but IMHO it should never take precedence over enjoying the actual game play itself. A reason I detest most "grinding" based game mechanics on principle - they don't hold the players attention by being fun but by artificially prolonging activities.

I do think ED has fun mechanics, and it would be great if players would embrace these more.

 

[Vihear]

Thanks, Vincent, for the detailed answer!
I was wondering if anything could be taken from an already existing mechanic that could then be applied to the capital ships, too. Eg. from how kills are tracked when two non-wing human CMDRs kill an NPC, and how it works when a wing kills an NPC. Is there some sort of tracking that could be used, with tweaks, maybe?

The idea of awarding fractions of combat bonds depending on the amount of damage dealt is not bad I think and wouldn't be too hard to implement; with every shot it the amount of damage inflicted is calculated anyway. However, imagine you being a skilled Eagle/Viper pilot bringing down a Python to 50% hull (first shields, then hull) in a fight for some minutes. Then a human Anaconda deals two hits with its large cannons and in a second destroys the other 50% of the Viper. You would get half the kill while going at it for a much longer time than the other player. Fair or not?

 

[gordogomez]

Thanks, Vincent, for the detailed answer!
I was wondering if anything could be taken from an already existing mechanic that could then be applied to the capital ships, too. Eg. from how kills are tracked when two non-wing human CMDRs kill an NPC, and how it works when a wing kills an NPC. Is there some sort of tracking that could be used, with tweaks, maybe?

The idea of awarding fractions of combat bonds depending on the amount of damage dealt is not bad I think and wouldn't be too hard to implement; with every shot it the amount of damage inflicted is calculated anyway. However, imagine you being a skilled Eagle/Viper pilot bringing down a Python to 50% hull (first shields, then hull) in a fight for some minutes. Then a human Anaconda deals two hits with its large cannons and in a second destroys the other 50% of the Viper. You would get half the kill while going at it for a much longer time than the other player. Fair or not?

Seems fair, your ship costs a fraction of the other player's ship

 

[CaptainKremmen]

How it worked before: If you tag an enemy ship with any amount of damage within a certain time limit before it died, say 10-20 seconds I think it was, you would get credit for the kill and the combat bond. Even if the capital ship did 99% of the work.

How it works now: If the capital ship tags an enemy ship with any amount of damage as the last hit, no matter the amount of damage to the enemy ship that you contributed, the capital ship gets the kill and bond. The commander gets nothing. Note that capital ships have more guns than you, and it will likely be shooting a constant stream of flak making it hard to get the last hit even while focusing on said ship.

How it works when a commander shoots an NPC without capital ship: Same as how it used to work for capital ships, if an enemy npc got the last shot you'd still get the bond / bounty / combat rating if you tagged the ship some 10-15 seconds before it died.

Does anyone have any other suggestions?

Yes...

Tone down the Federal capital ship damage output to bring it in line with the Imperial capital ship damage output.


Been fighting around a Majestic class for days now, and have raked in great combat bond amounts. Forum member Quinloe mentioned in another thread that there was a big difference between Farragut and Majestic class ships, and that is quite correct.

So... if the Imperial ship isn't a problem and the Federal ship is a problem... align the problem ships's damage output to be like the one that isn't the problem.

 

[Vincent Starson]

So... if the Imperial ship isn't a problem and the Federal ship is a problem... align the problem ships's damage output to be like the one that isn't the problem.

If that's a problem wouldn't it be better to tone the imperial capital ship up, instead of the federation ship down?

Fix the turret tracking on the imperial capital ship to be more accurate, and it will be more in line with the farragut.

 

[Vihear]

I don't think toning down the imperial ship is a good idea; the damage it deals out is ridiculous and not appropriate for a ship that size. This is the biggest / best tech that the Empire has to offer, it needs to be able to hit hard.

 

[Crash1099]

Join the other side and attack the capitol ship. Tell me how it goes if you try.

 

[CaptainKremmen]

I'm pretty happy with the Imperial Cap ship damage output, for the following reasons...


1. It's fun to play around if you're not on its side, as it won't cut you to ribbons in 15 seconds flat.

2. It's fun to play around if you are on its side, as you can make a meaningful contribution and earn great combat bonds.

3. Imperial Cap ship is quite capable of hitting larger, slower targets with its various weapon (blue beam of zapping, purple pellets of pummelling, etc). It has trouble with small, fast ships. This seems pretty rational, as it's a big, blunt instrument. Its defence against small, quick ships is to launch fighters. If an Anaconda tries to attack a Majestic up close, it gets hammered by the cap ship itself... it isn't the job of the wee Imperial fighters to bring it down. "Large pad" ships are easy for its turrets to hit... "Small" or "Medium pad" ships are a lot harder.


Sure, the Majestic scenario could probably handle a bit more DPS from the cap ship itself before breaking 1 and 2 for players.

I just reckon the Farragut scenario would benefit from a reduction in cap ship DPS, to make it more fun for both "allied" and "enemy" players. Have its weapons work well against large-pad ships, but not effectively for the small/mediums...

 

[Vincent Starson]

I just reckon the Farragut scenario would benefit from a reduction in cap ship DPS, to make it more fun for both "allied" and "enemy" players. Have its weapons work well against large-pad ships, but not effectively for the small/mediums...

The dps isn't the problem, the last hit mechanic they changed it to is the problem. Why should the cap ship get all of the combat bond for the ship I damaged 99% of? And inversely, we can't go back to the commander getting all of the bond for doing 1% of the damage.

It sounds like what would be a quick band aid would be to split the bond between the parties like how wings currently works. The code's already there and could be reworked for use with the cap ship. Reduce combat rating if you must, but it's not really fair considering a sizable number of people have already earned elite this way.
The more advanced solution would be to scale the bond depending on the damage done and split between all parties.

Regarding cap ship dps: I agree that speed and size should be taken into account, but if the turrets on the capital ship are using the same logic for turrets on your ship then they already are. Turrets have good tracking at first, then it falls off based on speed and size of the ship's signature. The reason that the Empire ship is so terrible is because beam turrets are naturally more terrible at tracking than pulse turrets.

It seems the community is split on any action on this. I see a few in support and a few against, and a few other suggestions floating about. Hopefully something changes to make capital ship zones worth participating in again.

 

[Twelvefield]

I feel the cap ships should obey a Napoleonic Order Of Battle: they won't engage a target in a lesser class unless attacked by that target. So capital ships should fight capital ships. Of course, if they have protective fighter wings, those fighters are free to engage anything they can. If the fighters engage other fighters, then it's a dogfight. If they engage another capital ship, then they suffer the consequences.