Please automate Supercruise - its the most pointless gameplay element.

Status
Thread Closed: Not open for further replies.
I don't have to back mine up, because it's common sense. If end-to-end autopilot is in the game, bots become easier to create, credit farming gets even easier, and community goals with a trade focus will be decided to a greater extent by which side is running more trade bots. You can run multiple instances of the game with one account as it is, so you wouldn't be limited to a single bot either.

Yep, you don't need to back up your opinions either, you're right. But also common sense commonly exagerates issues, that's also common sense. It just depends on where you stand.

Btw running multiple instances of the client is easily detected and actively being banned, according to certain people in a certain forum.

But how are player controlled trade-bots any worse and how could they possibly have more impact on a larger scale than those thousands of NPC traders already being simulated?

Or do you just feel like there's an injustice when somebody lets their bot run overnight, while you might only be able to play a few hours a week? How does this actually affect you in-game? Imagine you'd be ignorant of this player, would it make your game any worse? You might just as well get angry at the background simulation...
 
You know fully well (or at least should, since there was that thing you should've read and checked when registering) that it's not allowed to link to these sites here. So aside from very vague hints for obvious search terms you might use, none of us is actually allowed to do this.

Indeed - I found it all too easily with just the three most obvious words given this discussion.
 
its almost depressing.

There are videos of griefers and cheaters around, ramming other commanders with Orcas, having !Billions! of Credits, in their accounts.

There are videos of people streaming the game with Cheat Console Windows open

there have been and still there are ways of exploiting things that can make you millions easily

If you search for it, you can Google it in no time....

And some still are concerned about, a basic SC-Autopilot would make Trading Bots possible, that, if they even work, would farm you far less in weeks of leaving your Computer on...

Sorry.....
 
So the major argument against a SC autopilot is that it would facilitate the creation of Trade-Bots? Trade-Bots are a byproduct of a wealth driven core game mechanic, which in Elite this is the acquisition of more expensive ships. The real issue is that ship are the current measure of in game accomplishment. The acquisition of wealth thus become a grind in a game which frankly does not need one. The byproduct of which is griefing, credit farming, frustration, avoidance of interesting player interaction due to possible griefing and the high cost of recovery.

Sandbox games don't need these artificial goals. They create grinds, which create lots of other issues and otherwise discourage players from participating in interesting game mechanics and limit the development and execution of interesting game mechanics all in the name of trying to limit exploitation, when its all so unnecessary in the first place if one just eliminates the grind and replaces it with fun and engaging game mechanics.
 
how are player controlled trade-bots any worse and how could they possibly have more impact on a larger scale than those thousands of NPC traders already being simulated?

Community Goal influence is heavily weighted in favour of players. I would guess that Powers gameplay will be similarly weighted. There's two places that player cheating will have an effect.

As for my bitter rage at cheaters, there is none. Me typing some words you don't agree with doesn't make your personality profile accurate. RIGHT NOW I'M JUST TYPING IN CAPS, NOT ACTUALLY SHOUTING for example. It's just some letters arranged in a particular order. I could probably argue in favour of autopilots just as well if I wanted to, but I don't, because the slippery slope is out there, and it is very slippery, and it is sloped quite sharply down to the depths of a cheater's free-for-all if the devs want it to be.

Look, I get it, ethics are not for everyone - especially when it comes to inconsequential stuff like gaming. The game and the devs don't have to make it convenient for cheaters to cheat, however. The fact is that they have up until this point, with their whole policy of "report cheaters to us and we will take action - unless they get lots of Youtube hits doing so of course." I just don't see the benefit to the game as a whole if they implement additional mechanisms that assist cheaters.

You might feel that the convenience argument outweighs the slippery slope one. I disagree with that, which doesn't mean I'm boiling in impotent rage because some guy is making money selling credits online. Anyway, FDEV have stated that they were considering selling credits for real cash, so they can always just undercut such people once there is a real market for it. It's more the principle of the thing, which is an archaic concept apparently.
 
Last edited:
I have thought about this as well. Firstly, I enjoy SC and will probably never automate it, but it is possible to do so with Voice Attack with the "Recorder" feature. You will need to have aligned with you destination on the orbital line and have a set speed before initiating (to compensate for gravitational pull from a start point and also begin the macro sequence that can be duplicated on engaging). You could just start mapping it out from system by system and actually have the station name in each command. Find your starting point, time the run, record your macros and bada bing... auto pilot from supercruise to disengage.
 
its almost depressing.

There are videos of griefers and cheaters around, ramming other commanders with Orcas, having !Billions! of Credits, in their accounts.

There are videos of people streaming the game with Cheat Console Windows open

there have been and still there are ways of exploiting things that can make you millions easily

If you search for it, you can Google it in no time....

And some still are concerned about, a basic SC-Autopilot would make Trading Bots possible, that, if they even work, would farm you far less in weeks of leaving your Computer on...

Sorry.....

Still does not indicate that everyone else playing the game would immediatly and inevitably abuse the auto-pilot for trade-botting. And while some very visible people might suggest that there is a rampant amount of cheating/exploiting going on and continuing to increase, it's just a suggestion. Just as it might seem that the (complete) community is represented by the few registered on these forums. Many many more might just be browsing these forums while never registering. There might also be many more players playing the game in completely intended ways than there are exploiters. In fact, all you've encountered is very few individuals being very visible.

I don't have data or statistics (but I wish I had, would be very interesting) to back this, but I'm guessing the majority of the ED players, play it very much as intended and will continue to do so. I'm also guessing that most of them aren't ever going to bother looking up cheats and exploits, because they don't see a need.

In the end, no one here can really tell us what's going on and how this is going to play out. We can make guesses, but have very little facts. But what I can know, and what I'm going for here, is this: I'd don't see a problem with an auto-pilot, in fact I can imagine it's going to add something to the game. This exites me, and makes me want to play it more.

Community Goal influence is heavily weighted in favour of players. I would guess that Powers gameplay will be similarly weighted. There's two places that player cheating will have an effect.

As for my bitter rage at cheaters, there is none. Me typing some words you don't agree with doesn't make your personality profile accurate. RIGHT NOW I'M JUST TYPING IN CAPS, NOT ACTUALLY SHOUTING for example. It's just some letters arranged in a particular order. I could probably argue in favour of autopilots just as well if I wanted to, but I don't, because the slippery slope is out there, and it is very slippery, and it is sloped quite sharply down to the depths of a cheater's free-for-all if the devs want it to be.

Look, I get it, ethics are not for everyone - especially when it comes to inconsequential stuff like gaming. The game and the devs don't have to make it convenient for cheaters to cheat, however. The fact is that they have up until this point, with their whole policy of "report cheaters to us and we will take action - unless they get lots of Youtube hits doing so of course." I just don't see the benefit to the game as a whole if they implement additional mechanisms that assist cheaters.

You might feel that the convenience argument outweighs the slippery slope one. I disagree with that, which doesn't mean I'm boiling in impotent rage because some guy is making money selling credits online. Anyway, FDEV have stated that they were considering selling credits for real cash, so they can always just undercut such people once there is a real market for it. It's more the principle of the thing, which is an archaic concept apparently.

I didn't attempt to profile your personality or didn't want to imply there's bitter rage on your end. I just wanted to try to take your perspective and maybe make you see mine. My perspective is this: every game has cheaters. Some see it as a completely legitimate way of playing, kind of like bluffing in Poker. While this can be incredibly annoying and even ripple through game communities, I'd still rather see the developers invest their time and energy into their vision for the game. Thanks to the internet, maybe I've got a chance to communicate a great idea I had to them.

I guess it's because I don't play online PVP anymore. And when I did, controlled and moderated dedicated servers hosted by community members where still a thing. So was knowing the regulars on that server. And welcoming newbies. Exactly because of discussions and issues like cheaters surrounding every online multiplayer game in recent times I've stopped playing PVP games and stick to those that let me opt-out, or are cooperative. I don't think cheating against other players is ok, but I also believe I don't have any right to tell other people what the right way to play a game is. Have fun and let others have fun, that's it. And if it's fun to them to watch their trade-bot do it's thing or even let it run over night and return in the morning to millions of credits, and doesn't really affect me in the way I play, I think it's ok for them to do it.

Now what to do about these community events? I believe they're inevitably going to attract cheaters/botters/exploiters, those events are high visibility feasting grounds for attention-seekers. For me they exist on the fringes of my playing experience. Kinda like the big stories from EVE, I find them very interesting and entertaining, but I'm not going to play that game, just not my thing. So my solution for the cheating in the community events would simply be to stop community events completely. No point to it, if they're really a performance test for efficient cheating. Or leave them the way they are, inconsequential to the game universe.

Then again, if I was a developer I'd just let it happen and be amused. But like I said, if I were a developer I'd rather invest my time and energy into realizing my vision. If something turns out to be exploitable, wow, emergent behaviour in complex systems, nice. So in my book, an auto-pilot isn't really a broken mechanism, but it might be usable in an unintended way. And I think that's fine.

I have thought about this as well. Firstly, I enjoy SC and will probably never automate it, but it is possible to do so with Voice Attack with the "Recorder" feature. You will need to have aligned with you destination on the orbital line and have a set speed before initiating (to compensate for gravitational pull from a start point and also begin the macro sequence that can be duplicated on engaging). You could just start mapping it out from system by system and actually have the station name in each command. Find your starting point, time the run, record your macros and bada bing... auto pilot from supercruise to disengage.

See, this is somebody having fun with the game. What mechanism exist, how does stuff interact, what I can I make it do? This lego piece and that gear, this motor, the pawn from chess and that bit of string make a nice helicopter with a pilot. To me, this reads like a CMDR, sitting in supercruise out to a 10,000ls station, thinking "There's gotta be a way to make this less of a chore." To me, that's engaging the game, playing with it. Hard to believe, with all the computers onboard these ships, and those long boring cruises no CMDR ever taught him/her-self some coding and programmed something like that and then shared it with fellow CMDRs.

Finally, I'd like to say, cheaters/hackers/griefers thrive on attention. Any kind of attention, positive and negative, immediate and remote. More often than not, they are also actively engaged in the community. And once they realize how much influence on the development process and evolution of the game they've got, it's just going to get worse. So while there's going to be a unquantified possibility of exploiting should there be an auto-pilot, I still rather see it happen for all the good fun it could be and in spite of cheaters/hackers and griefers.
 
Last edited:
Hope you brought your flame suit OP. No matter how eloquently anyone asks for this, you'll just anger the 1984s. :/


I'm an 84er and I'm not angered.

I just think it's important to see all sides of the problem - hence the discussion regarding bots. But it would seem (if my google search results are to be believed) that bots already exist. Of course there's a difference between renting out complex bots by the month through third party sources and being able to easily create your own via Voice Attack (something I, a non-programmer, could easily do depending on how a supercruise autopilot was implemented).

And there's the concern of unforeseen ramifications as well. Look at what's going on now with the whole ramming-as-a-crime issue - it's a nightmare of debate and possible workarounds that might very well render the whole thing pointless. But the difference there is, a crime scenario is easily changed at a future update. Adding a flight computer and then taking it away if it was somehow abused? Never happen.

On the surface, I don't have a problem with an autopilot. I think how it works and under what circumstances would need to be carefully considered. I think you'd need to make sure that easy voice-attack level scripting couldn't be done with it somehow (just because botting already exists doesn't mean the devs should just give up and make it so everybody can make their own if they have a bit of time to kill)

It's not something I'd ever use, and I think it runs the risk of making players distance themselves from the game while they play (set autopilot, go have tea and check facebook, check back every so often to see if they're there yet).

Personally I think (as I mentioned a few times) a distance/ETA counter in every screen would help many people who find supercruise tiresome (because they don't feel they can go check maps or other UI panels without possibly overshooting their target). Especially after 1.3 is introduced, when there will be more to see and do inside the cockpit (GalNet, Powers information)
 
Hope you brought your flame suit OP. No matter how eloquently anyone asks for this, you'll just anger the 1984s. :/

I played in 1984, now it is 2015 and multi-player. Games and it's players have evolved since those dark ages of no internet, Most of it good but also some bad, now we need to keep an eye out for the bad, but not at the cost of game improvements.
 
Shame for the 1984'rs is that there isn't really enough of them to justify a profitable game..

Anyway Autopilot super-cruise is a great idea. It is a mind boring exercise which really you should have the option to hit a key and let the computer do it for you so you can just admire the sights or look out for threats.

Multiple jumps in hyperspace should also have the option to be automated. Play your route where you need to fuel then bam off you go.

Make the game far more immersive and there is reasons why planes use autopilot now..

To those who feel that it will promote trade botting, you just make sure the autopilot and the auto land options are separate. I.E. you need to manually enable the docking computer after the super cruise is finished..
 
Last edited:
I don't really get it... Where's the problem? For example: Coming into Alpha Centauri, set your nose in direction Hutton Orbital, push your throttle all way up and... go for a coffee, a talk with mum and dad, call a friend, whatever you wanna do...

There's your autopilot! You got about 25 minutes of spare time (or even less if the destination isn't this far away - but then you don't need autopilot!)

Just be here in time, when you have to slow down and leave the supercruise. That's all.
It's pretty much like flying airliners. Some time after takeoff you set the autopilot, who brings you somewhere next to your destination (of course the RL pilots have to monitor the flight all the time). It's all good, but don't expect the plane to descend to a given flight level and land on the airport while the pilots are taking a sh.... and simply missed to be back in time or were reading the newspaper and didn't pay attention to the final phase of flight...

The only difference is, that in ED you can go simply straight ahead to your destination, there's no overspeed, no turbulences, no unexpected system malfunctions (at least until now). Or did you mean the autopilot should also do the jumps from one system to another for you? Where's the point to play the game then? Some other guys want to have an auto tracking system, that scans the ships and shoots at the wanted automaticaly. Of course with auto targeting, auto cooling, auto energy management and auto winning. Then an auto trading system that knows all markets and auto-buys or auto-sells the right things and auto-enables the autopilot to autofly to the next profitable station, not without prior autorefueling. Of course with autoscanning all unknown stars on your way to the destination, where you can perform an auto landing with auto lowering your landing gear after you got landing permission to your auto request.

...and then it's just a matter of time, when the first fully automated Anaconda says with her autovoice "Oh, shhhhhhh....., I forgot my pilot!!!"
 
To those who feel that it will promote trade botting, you just make sure the autopilot and the auto land options are separate. I.E. you need to manually enable the docking computer after the super cruise is finished..

Nope - because you just script in to select one, wait as long as needed, and then select the other. As I said before, as long as the process could theoretically be done entirely in keystrokes, you can program Voice Attack to do it (voice attack is just my example, I'm sure plenty of other scripting things exist).
 
Nope - because you just script in to select one, wait as long as needed, and then select the other. As I said before, as long as the process could theoretically be done entirely in keystrokes, you can program Voice Attack to do it (voice attack is just my example, I'm sure plenty of other scripting things exist).

Promoting botting is a moot point in this argument as it is just as easy to do it now.
 
Trolling guys, best to ignore.
How is he trolling!?
Because he doesn't share your FDEV implanted opinion that manually aiming at the destination for minutes is so super awesome?
From my point of view, he is absolutely right.
I must be a troll too then...

This forum becomes more and more pathetic!
 
Last edited:
Promoting botting is a moot point in this argument as it is just as easy to do it now.

I wouldn't say just as easy - at least, not for me. Currently I'd still need to align with a station or star system manually. I know there are those who have managed to create scripts to do that - but that's far beyond the ken of most players (hence having to rent them from those who know how, as far as I know). But if it can be dropped to just keystrokes, then anyone can do it.
 
I'm an 84er and I'm not angered.

I just think it's important to see all sides of the problem - hence the discussion regarding bots. But it would seem (if my google search results are to be believed) that bots already exist. Of course there's a difference between renting out complex bots by the month through third party sources and being able to easily create your own via Voice Attack (something I, a non-programmer, could easily do depending on how a supercruise autopilot was implemented).

I think bots are going to happen regardless - it is just too easy to create bots for space compared to traversing an MMO with terrain, etc. The major difficulty would be the docking, given a 3D rotating environment with NPC collision... except, that part can already be automated - in game!

I'm not sure about what all the different ideas for implementation of a SC autopilot in this thread are (there are a lot of pages), but do note that we do already have automated slowing to appropriate speeds that allow us to drop out of SC as we approach a target (75% throttle). All we are really missing to make the most basic SC autopilot is something that auto-drops from SC when close enough to the target. After that, auto-re-alignment for when precision-drift occurs (requires player to align with target first, though). Then total auto-alignment (no player interaction). Then auto-avoid imminent collision. Then auto-avoid interdiction. It just depends on how "auto" the autopilot is made.

My own opinion is that I don't mind having to do things (like hitting a button to drop out of SC when near, or avoid a planet, or respond to interdictions, or even re-align when it drifts), what I do mind is having to not do things; so I can't read another screen, the map, a book, whatever - this is because only visual warnings given. I can listen to stuff, but I can't look at/watch stuff. Therefore, for me, just add audio warnings when appropriate [Collision imminent] [10 Mm from target] [No longer on target (due to precision-drift)]. That way I can turn my visual attention to something else, something more interesting than staring at a slowly increasing-in-size dot - but still have to pay audio attention and attend when required.
 
Last edited:
Status
Thread Closed: Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom