Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread [See new thread]

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xkjacob

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I was ignoring, but nope - so much wrong.

Try reading up on Consumer Rights and look up Ethical Business practice - all for the UK.

FD will not just ban people without a solid legal reason, heck known cheaters are only getting a "shadowban" as UK Laws cover consumers more than they do businesses.
So stop trying to act like Gods gift to Law, as you've not read up on ANY of it and know nothing about UK Laws so it would seem.

My point in case;

"3. Precision isn't really necessary until issue." - yes, yes it is. You have NEVER been in an English court room. They throw cases out for spelling errors, and they use the terms Mens Rea and Actus Reus and awful lot. Which is why, if something is not PERFECTLY clear, in wording AND intent (which our EULA is not) then an English court will side with the player - EVERY TIME.

As for 4, again, read up on legal and illegal marketing (for the UK) - big leap from "Play your way" to "Do as your told because xkjacob once read a legal poster somewhere and wants everyone in his game world" :rolleyes:

Those are all very interesting things y'all are speaking of.
Would you point to the portion of the EULA that enforces the shadowban.
 
3. Precision isn't really necessary until issue." - yes, yes it is. You have NEVER been in an English court room. They throw cases out for spelling errors, and they use the terms Mens Rea and Actus Reus and awful lot. Which is why, if something is not PERFECTLY clear, in wording AND intent (which our EULA is not) then an English court will side with the player - EVERY TIME.
It's the same in the USA. Iron clad agreements are routinely thrown out when the court deems that legal representation would be unusual for the situation and/or the wording was misleading for the layman whether it was intentional or not. One of the very first things you learn in law is that no contract you sign without the express guidance of an attorney or without formal waiver thereof is worth the paper it is printed on.

It's challenging enough to support a contract that was signed with the benefit of represenation. Even that is no guarantee that the court will uphold the contract. Without it, any first year attorney will see that it's not even entered into evidence. These things have virtually no weight other than scaring the consumer out of challenging them. They're more psychological than legal.
 

xkjacob

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Erm, I hate to nit pick...



Here's the EULA....

https://store.elitedangerous.com/ed-eula/

Get stuck in ;)

I already had an idea.
I think i've quoted it already.
I'm just concerned y'alls conversation will lead to some people believing the p2p blocking exploit is fine and the EULA unenforceable.
I understand y'all have an issue with the information I brought to the table, so I thought you might want an opportunity to provide some of your knowledge.

So y'all made a.knowledge statement, the shadowban was legal. Let's have you flesh that out in a more open forum for both ideas.
 
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(c) Please read the EULA, in my culture it is rude to ask someone to do something you could do for yourself.

I have read it, in my culture if someone says there is something in a document and the other person disagrees a request for a citation is normal.

It is sometimes phrased like this
Citation, please.

He didn't say they wouldn't or a definitive no, so I'm just going to dismiss your point.

Until FD state something to the contrary this is the most recent information, dismiss it if you wish, I think its called sticking your head in the sand but that's my only opinion.

I play every type of game play, research the hell out of them and aggregate my gameplay data in a log to track revenue vs time.

Power play is about system faction control.
When in open mode you will contribute a significant amount more to the faction of your choice than compared to group play.
This is to prevent the background noise of group / solo play from determining events like our current model allows.

To be honest, I can't find a post.
However, it makes for bad game play.
I will leave it up to your personal intelligence to figure out why all modes being equal makes for poor game play.

I would suggest you practice researching, for someone who claims to be OCD about words you should also know the difference between "opinion" & "fact".

The reason you can't find the post would be because it doesn't exist, you were stating incorrect opinions as facts.

This is to prevent the background noise of group / solo play from determining events like our current model allows.
I will leave it up to your personal intelligence to figure out why all modes being equal makes for poor game play.

Mmmm really, just popping over to link this in the Mobius thread, see if some more of us "unintelligent background noise" players have an opinion, actually best I don't.


Now back to the question, how can having an old router, one that will not support upnp or whatever it is, or a "badly" configured router breach any of EULA conditions, I am really interested, if you believe it does best you go over to the bugs forums, I have seen many people posting that they can't see other players & asking for advice on how to fix it.

I would very be interested in their reactions to being called cheats & suggesting they are in breach of the EULA and should be banned for cheating.
 
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I already had an idea.
I think i've quoted it already.
I'm just concerned y'alls conversation will lead to some people believing the p2p blocking exploit is fine and the EULA unenforceable.
I understand y'all have an issue with the information I brought to the table, so I thought you might want an opportunity to provide some of your knowledge.

To be honest, i'd never touch my router to avoid other players. Too much hassle...
 
I already had an idea.
I think i've quoted it already.
I'm just concerned y'alls conversation will lead to some people believing the p2p blocking exploit is fine and the EULA unenforceable.
I understand y'all have an issue with the information I brought to the table, so I thought you might want an opportunity to provide some of your knowledge.

Blocking P2P is not an exploit - that is a massive assumption or false opinion from you.
There are plenty of legitimate reasons someone may have P2P connections blocked, for example: sometimes ISP block them for various reasons, sometimes Anti-Virus software blocks them.

All you have done, is bring YOUR interpretation to the table, you've not backed anything up with information from FD or any legal facts, so it is just opinions from you - and news flash, your opinion of blocking P2P is worth EXACTLY the same as mine, nothing - our opinions are worth nothing. The game is made and developed by Frontier Developments, and until they state it is an exploit - it is not one. Their opinion is the only one that counts.

They said combat logging is one, so it is one. They have not stated about the Wing Beacons (not that I've seen, if there is info can ANYONE link it please) so that is not decided yet and may be called "a feature" at any point in the future. And Michael Brooks talked about shadowban in his Dev update and possible reasons - none of which included blocking P2P
See how it works?
 

xkjacob

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I have read it, in my culture if someone says there is something in a document and the other person disagrees a request for a citation is normal.

It is sometimes phrased like this



Until FD state something to the contrary this is the most recent information, dismiss it if you wish, I think its called sticking your head in the sand but that's my only opinion.







I would suggest you practice researching, for someone who claims to be OCD about words you should also know the difference between "opinion" & "fact".

The reason you can't find the post would be because it doesn't exist, you were stating incorrect opinions as facts.




Mmmm really, just popping over to link this in the Mobius thread, see if some more of us "unintelligent background noise" players have an opinion, actually best I don't.


Now back to the question, how can having an old router, one that will not support upnp or whatever it is, or a "badly" configured router breach any of EULA conditions, I am really interested, if you believe it does best you go over to the bugs forums, I have seen many people posting that they can't see other players & asking for advice on how to fix it.

I would very be interested in their reactions to being called cheats & suggesting they are in breach of the EULA and should be banned for cheating.

I noticed you quoted me as saying "unintelligent background noise" and I didn't say that, nor do I feel that way.
You are right, I was mistaken in reading that powerplay will release different modes for open, group and solo.
Anything else?
 
To be honest, i'd never touch my router to avoid other players. Too much hassle...

5 minute setup using Zone Alarm.
Maybe 10 minutes with an older - pain in the backside router.

And as a last resort, there are some trustworthy folks on the forums who could remote do it for you if you wanted, then you just have to toggle on/off and the settings will kick in.
Also, if your friends use static IPs - they can be added to the whitelist, so even when you're set to block you can still see friends.
 

xkjacob

X
Blocking P2P is not an exploit - that is a massive assumption or false opinion from you.
There are plenty of legitimate reasons someone may have P2P connections blocked, for example: sometimes ISP block them for various reasons, sometimes Anti-Virus software blocks them.

All you have done, is bring YOUR interpretation to the table, you've not backed anything up with information from FD or any legal facts, so it is just opinions from you - and news flash, your opinion of blocking P2P is worth EXACTLY the same as mine, nothing - our opinions are worth nothing. The game is made and developed by Frontier Developments, and until they state it is an exploit - it is not one. Their opinion is the only one that counts.

They said combat logging is one, so it is one. They have not stated about the Wing Beacons (not that I've seen, if there is info can ANYONE link it please) so that is not decided yet and may be called "a feature" at any point in the future. And Michael Brooks talked about shadowban in his Dev update and possible reasons - none of which included blocking P2P
See how it works?

Those are words. I just got my post deleted off the forums for posting how to block p2p and given the "yes it is an exploit" copy pasta message.
I asked where the enforceability for shadowban came from.
Y'all are having a hay day of saying the EULA isn't enforceable, but this shadowban seems to work fine. I wanted you understanding of why it works. Surely your friend with his legal credentials can inform us of how it is enforceable.
 
5 minute setup using Zone Alarm.
Maybe 10 minutes with an older - pain in the backside router.

And as a last resort, there are some trustworthy folks on the forums who could remote do it for you if you wanted, then you just have to toggle on/off and the settings will kick in.
Also, if your friends use static IPs - they can be added to the whitelist, so even when you're set to block you can still see friends.

I'm into networking for 20 years... i have other options ;)
Let's say "blocking" would be the nicest thing i could do.

But there is a difference between being able to do something and actually doing it.
It would take quite a bit of disappointment and anger to get me that far.
 
Those are words. I just got my post deleted off the forums for posting how to block p2p and given the "yes it is an exploit" copy pasta message.
I asked where the enforceability for shadowban came from.
Y'all are having a hay day of saying the EULA isn't enforceable, but this shadowban seems to work fine. I wanted you understanding of why it works. Surely your friend with his legal credentials can inform us of how it is enforceable.

How would you know shadowban works fine?
Something you are not telling us?
As far as I am aware, it's not being used yet.... unless you are the first and trying to find ways to legally force FD to put you back on the live server maybe??

All through this thread (start on page 1 - my first post is page 3) people talk about P2P blocking and roughly how to do it..... no deleted posts, no warnings.
So, in the finest tradition of the internet - proof or it didn't happen :p

As for the "enforceability" for shadowban - again, YOU said it was rude to ask others to look something up, and as I'm not arguing over shadowban, I'm stating P2P blocking has not been outright condemned, so not bannable - that is something for you to look up on. After all, FD said people can play the game - not that you "had to" play with others.
 
Well to avoid any possible compromise of the EULA, simply buy another router and enjoy double NAT :D

Just googled double nat router, looks so much safer than using one, I will have to ask my network guy about it (joke).

Seriously though I won't, I have no need unless we ever get to the doomsday situation, and based on the FACT that the modes were decided on by FD back at the start & are still here 6 months post launch, they are highly unlikely to change IMHO.
 
Surely your friend with his legal credentials can inform us of how it is enforceable.
Simple answer: Anything is enforceable until it is not. ie, declared unenforceable by a controlling authority. Developers, distributors, importers, manufacturers et al have a lot of leeway, as few petty grievances are worth a fight. However, the aforementioned group of producers greatly fear anything that even rhymes with class action, because you can't win a class action suit. Even if you prevail in court, the ensuing publicity is as damaging if not more so than the settlement would have been.

So, the real question in this age of privacy concerns is exactly how far do you think a GAME publisher is going to push the issue for the sole sake of making a few die-hard players happy? I promise no GAME publisher is going to start DEMANDING that anyone make sweeping network changes.

TL;DR

If you take anything away from this, take this: FD will try to accommodate as many players and play-styles as possible. Just like it has been doing all along. The idea that they're going to go all pulp fiction on any subset of players is naive at best. It's not going to turn into a legal battle, and your scaremongering isn't going to change that.
 

xkjacob

X
How would you know shadowban works fine?
Something you are not telling us?
As far as I am aware, it's not being used yet.... unless you are the first and trying to find ways to legally force FD to put you back on the live server maybe??

All through this thread (start on page 1 - my first post is page 3) people talk about P2P blocking and roughly how to do it..... no deleted posts, no warnings.
So, in the finest tradition of the internet - proof or it didn't happen :p

As for the "enforceability" for shadowban - again, YOU said it was rude to ask others to look something up, and as I'm not arguing over shadowban, I'm stating P2P blocking has not been outright condemned, so not bannable - that is something for you to look up on. After all, FD said people can play the game - not that you "had to" play with others.

Quoting braben
We also have the concept of a shadow ban. A shadow ban will allow an player to continue playing Elite: Dangerous but will put them on a separate server that won’t affect any of our honest players; or the galaxy simulation. A player can be shadow banned for a day, a week or permanently depending on severity of the action and if the player repeatedly performs prohibited actions.

There is also the option for a permanent ban, this would only usually apply to account trading, severe harassment or abusive players.


Asking for you knowledge or opinion on a subject isn't invalid when we've read the same material and came to different conclusion.
I didn't put the onus soley on you, but the group of dissenters that have the gentleman who inferred he had a legal back ground.
I've been pretty open about my ideas and been wrong a few times. What I was curious about is the shadowban and now the perma ban they plan to execute. Y'all have been giving point that my knowledge is invalid, but not really presented some positive knowledge related to the subject you feel you understandig is superior of.
 
Once again no.
"You may not use" goes to the functionality of software and hardware. The knowledge you have it misuses their system.is a 3c violation. The fact the hardware or software you use can't run is correctly.is a section 4 violation.

Existing defect: set your path to a 1.1 USB device for your snapshot storage. It is too small causes the game to lock up and you disappear. By your logic it isn't their fault their storage is too small for the image and it isn't their fault they know what it does.
That is a known exploit for the specific hardware and the intentionality to cheat.

4.4 You may not use the Game or any Online Features in a manner that could damage, disable, impair, overburden or compromise our systems or security or interfere with the experience of other users of the Game or any Online Feature.

This is all hypothetical as I have no understanding of how to, nor need to do it, I just want to understand your opinion.

I will preface this with (apart from a couple of days in beta) I have not had any serious network issues in nearly a year, which is lucky as I have read some of the posts advising people to try "port forwarding" etc and I didn't understand it at all.

Now Imagine I am a new player, my mate set up the router for me and I start playing but can't see other players in open.

damage - I hope not, if a "badly set up / old router" can do this FD have bigger problems
disable - I hope not, if a "badly set up / old router" can do this FD have bigger problems
impair - I hope not, if a "badly set up / old router" can do this FD have bigger problems
overburden - I hope not, if a "badly set up / old router" can do this FD have bigger problems & Amazon too
compromise our systems or security - I hope not, if a "badly set up / old router" can do this FD have bigger problems

or interfere with the experience of other users of the Game or any Online Feature

Can someone you don't see interfere any more than another open player in another instance? or mode?, I don't think so. "or any Online Feature", the game is 100% online, solo, groups & open are all online, unless solo & groups are also considered interfering with someone in open in the EULA then it doesn't make sense to me in your context.

Eta in your context.
 
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Quoting braben
We also have the concept of a shadow ban. A shadow ban will allow an player to continue playing Elite: Dangerous but will put them on a separate server that won’t affect any of our honest players; or the galaxy simulation. A player can be shadow banned for a day, a week or permanently depending on severity of the action and if the player repeatedly performs prohibited actions.

There is also the option for a permanent ban, this would only usually apply to account trading, severe harassment or abusive players.


Asking for you knowledge or opinion on a subject isn't invalid when we've read the same material and came to different conclusion.
I didn't put the onus soley on you, but the group of dissenters that have the gentleman who inferred he had a legal back ground.
I've been pretty open about my ideas and been wrong a few times. What I was curious about is the shadowban and now the perma ban they plan to execute. Y'all have been giving point that my knowledge is invalid, but not really presented some positive knowledge related to the subject you feel you understandig is superior of.

The key word there is "Conclusion" - you have come to one, the rest of us have not.
The part you are adamant on ignoring, is the EULA may be written in black and white - but it is not black and white. It has more plot holes than 50 shades of grey and about 20 more shades of grey to it.

As for what part of the EULA FD are going to use as the excuse for placing someone into shadowban, I have no idea - I know what I would use if I were in their situation (3c + 4.4) - but I cannot speak for them.
If someone were to try and get a permanent shadowban overturned, depending on why they were put there in the first place (and that is the key issue) you can argue a specific offence and the consequential break of the EULA has not been committed.
Say blocking P2P connections was the excuse, there is not a single line that states that you "must leave uPnP and P2P connections available" - it only says it is an "Online" game, well I can be "Online" without any other ED player ever seeing me in Open, so technically I've fulfilled the onus to be "Online" - therefore blocking P2P is not a breach of the EULA (in the current form).

Also, in the British legal system, Mens Rea cannot be proven or disproven either way in a lot of cases - I and I alone know my intent when I go into my firewall settings, if I were to block a hacker but the settings had the side effect of blocking P2P from coming in - I have done nothing wrong and any sort of ban cannot be upheld, as it was not my intent to be dishonest.

There are tons of ways to argue for and against enforcement of an EULA (why I said it was pointless), FD know this. So while in your opinion blocking P2P is an exploit, FD know full and well to enforce that opinion should they share it will be a nightmare and a lot of bad press as well.

This is also why, apart from some promotional things (Race to Elite and the recent nVidia card giveaway) - normal game content will be offered in all modes, as people are only going to bypass restrictions anyway.

- - - Updated - - -

....
Can someone you don't see interfere any more than another open player in another instance? or mode?, I don't think so. "or any Online Feature", the game is 100% online, solo, groups & open are all online, unless solo & groups are also considered interfering with someone in open in the EULA then it doesn't make sense to me in your context.

Eta in your context.

The worst part is, I know what he/she is getting at - this is just a new angle on an old argument in this very thread.
Must admit though, I'm enjoying the distraction and new ways of phrasing the old points ;)
 
I'm sure many would, and have argued, that a game without "greifing" is content in and of itself. Like I also said, cargo delivery missions are a dime a dozens, they are not new content, by any means. All I was doing was repackaging it in a way to appeal to open players. You too can enjoy that content you just have to follow the rules as well ;) otherwise it's cheating.

I do follow the rules, & the spirit as far as I can too, I didn't wipe at launch and was quite happy in the knowledge I never exploited anything in the game, I include the luxurys runs & early days with rares even though others might not, I have a good Asp & Vulture, I am by no means rich but I am still enjoying the game.

Still, going into a pve group, purely to attack people that are there to avoid pvp, its just wrong on so many levels.
 
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