I cannot rep you again so soon it seems
Trader ships that can survive Open
- Thread starter Pendra
- Start date
I cannot rep you again so soon it seems
I repped for you - the comment he put was quite true.
Not a trader myself, hate trading. Only reason i hit Merchant was due to some rare runs and a brief dalliance with trading just to see if i could get into it. Not a pirate either.
However, traders do seem to make a number of fatal flaws. The most common one is sacrificing defense for profits. Nobody expects trade ships to be able to kill a pirate, but you can still increase your chance of survival. Shield Cell boosters, chaff launchers (for those pirates who haven't mastered fixed weapons), point defense turrets, and of course, a good shield. But of course, fitting those reduce your jump range, and SCBs take up valuable internal slots. Can't be having that can we?! And so many fly in open without wingmen for defense.
Also, there are some ships out there that have good cargo space but are not bad at combat. Asp, Orca, Fed Dropship for example. Yeah, you're not going to beat a competent pirate in a FdL, but you can perhaps cause them some damage. Remind them that not all traders are soft targets.
Would also be cool if Hull reinforcement modules would provide additional protection to subsystems. But until such a time that happens, traders can consider fitting B class modules, which are stronger than other types.
I'd like to see more people with T9s equipped as trade oriented battle cows. Imagine someone in an FdL interdicting a T9 battle cow, and then suddenly finding themselves surrounded by 4 of them... no need for manouverability... just sit there and pound into the FdL... their shields will be gone in seconds.
Or employ combat wingmen. The fat trade ship provides a tempting target for pirates, so the combat people should always have something to do on those risky journeys.
There are options out there for trade ships beyond - "let's turn these trade ships into combat ships as well"
However, traders do seem to make a number of fatal flaws. The most common one is sacrificing defense for profits. Nobody expects trade ships to be able to kill a pirate, but you can still increase your chance of survival. Shield Cell boosters, chaff launchers (for those pirates who haven't mastered fixed weapons), point defense turrets, and of course, a good shield. But of course, fitting those reduce your jump range, and SCBs take up valuable internal slots. Can't be having that can we?! And so many fly in open without wingmen for defense.
Also, there are some ships out there that have good cargo space but are not bad at combat. Asp, Orca, Fed Dropship for example. Yeah, you're not going to beat a competent pirate in a FdL, but you can perhaps cause them some damage. Remind them that not all traders are soft targets.
Would also be cool if Hull reinforcement modules would provide additional protection to subsystems. But until such a time that happens, traders can consider fitting B class modules, which are stronger than other types.
I'd like to see more people with T9s equipped as trade oriented battle cows. Imagine someone in an FdL interdicting a T9 battle cow, and then suddenly finding themselves surrounded by 4 of them... no need for manouverability... just sit there and pound into the FdL... their shields will be gone in seconds.
Or employ combat wingmen. The fat trade ship provides a tempting target for pirates, so the combat people should always have something to do on those risky journeys.
There are options out there for trade ships beyond - "let's turn these trade ships into combat ships as well"
If you play a trader in open - by playing in open you accept that you will be a target of the cowards who are unable to actually take on a decently defended ship so choose lightly armed traders as a target. So factor in the losses per trip I guess. TBH if you play open you should expect to be griefed, pirated, abused and otherwise have your day ruined by other players. But I guess you can do the same back so its evens.
I just use a cheap ship for open when I fancy some interaction or RP or generally having a laugh. I park my expensive ship in Mobius
I just use a cheap ship for open when I fancy some interaction or RP or generally having a laugh. I park my expensive ship in Mobius
Your logic is not quite correct.
A pirates main objective is to steal cargo and sell it on the black market - it does not make any logical sense to take on more difficult ships that are armored / decently defended as that could result in damage to the pirates ship and/or death. No, the main target for a pirate are defenseless ships - it has nothing to do with cowardice but common sense. Why perform an illegal act and try to steal something from a ship that will kill you ? That is why people on the forums advise time and time again to beef up your trading ship as pirates on the whole will not succeed in taking cargo from you. It's the old risk-vs-reward scenario and far too many people pick the reward option.
I will, with all my words, defend pirates who pick on defenseless ships as it's the logical / right thing for them to do.
What I won't defend though are murderers who prey on defenseless ships for the sport only because the consequences for doing so are laughable (the game almost encourages murder) - if FD beef up the game such that being a murderer is a difficult but not impossible game choice then I will support them. As it stands its far too easy to commit murder and get away with it. (This wouldn't happen in real life - you kill someone and the police would mount a murder hunt; kill several people repeatedly over days on end and a mass hunt would be set up ... the game as it stands almost thanks you
)
I've been in open since the start and have happily traded without issue.
I have lost a few ships and cargo to players and even more due to pilot error.
Murderous players could do with harsher penalties but apart from that game seems fine to me.
It seems to me a lot if traders spend too much time in heavily populated, pirate/ganker areas instead of moving out to systems which are just as profitable but safer.
[Edit - it also seems to me that I should spend a little longer proof reading my posts before hitting send :/]
I have lost a few ships and cargo to players and even more due to pilot error.
Murderous players could do with harsher penalties but apart from that game seems fine to me.
It seems to me a lot if traders spend too much time in heavily populated, pirate/ganker areas instead of moving out to systems which are just as profitable but safer.
[Edit - it also seems to me that I should spend a little longer proof reading my posts before hitting send :/]
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Only need 5 seconds of shield strength. Then you can pop batteries like candy and because of the high class of the battery and low amount of shields, they come back through anything short of 5 PAs up the bum.
Most traders maximize for cargo because that maximizes profit. It's not too difficult to not make mistakes and bad choices when flying a space cow, but most people got acclimated to the lull of things.
Most traders maximize for cargo because that maximizes profit. It's not too difficult to not make mistakes and bad choices when flying a space cow, but most people got acclimated to the lull of things.
And its idiots like you who let ppl not want to play in open in the first place. I welcome Pirates who actually do Pirating. Sb who brags in a Forum about how he kills defenceless traders is just an .
Just putting the Dangerous aspect to Elite: Dangerous. It is a hard and messy job, but someone has to do it. You are welcome.
At the same time, I share with you what I have learned. So you can improve your build without doing the same. Again, you are welcome.
I did my fair share in proper pirating but I got disillusioned when it boiled down to political correctness.
Elite: Carebear - FD, bad people can pop my ship, give me a game that is safer for me! FD level the field, strike down the bad guys, teach them how to play nice because I can't. I don't care enough for my own safety, you need to care for me.
You know what? If the bounty for murder was 500k and elite police anacondas would chase me around, I would still pop traders. I don't plan to die and CMDR BHs can't get me (top speed 454). 50k or persisting 50m on my head makes no difference to me. I don't cheat or exploit and mostly attack more expensive ships. I kill fair and square.
Back to topic,
There were several good points above. I don't want to quote them all but here are all the comments to them.
The Vulture can reach 390, but it loses momentum pretty fast after boost. Write this up to air friction. Also, to keep boosting at a good pace, you need 4 pips to drive, that leaves 2 pips to weps. You just halved your damage dealing potential. Same problem with Viper.
Sane Vipers don't attack Clippers. That is the only ship that can outgun and outrun them. The clipper is practically a viper on serious drugs.
Unless the viper is pro and the clipper is lame, the viper will bite the dust. Would you take your chances?
The chaff is pointless. When someone goes out to hunt traders, they mount fixed guns. Traders ships are like flying barns. Very hard not to hit them.
The T-Viper and the T-Cobra are actually cheaper than their trader counterpart. This means their insurance is lower. The Clipper is ~300k more expensive and the Conda is a lot more. The whole point is that the T-C ship will survive, so the insurance will make no difference.
Lets see a shielded transport
Tier 3, T7 vs T-Clipper
T7: 22.2m Cr, Cargo: 184t, Range: 11.3, Top speed: 303
http://www.edshipyard.com/#/L=60X,mpW0_g0_g0_g01Q,2-6a888I6u4s5K5A,0AA0AA7T208c0727fY03w03w
T-Clipper: 28.3m Cr, Cargo: 184t, Range: 9.3, Top speed loaded: 410
The T7 has 4 pips at shield. The shield will go down in 4 secs vs an FDL or Clipper. Not enough to deploy a SCB.
Vs the Cobra and the vulture are about the same, it will last for ~8 secs. SCB deployed, which will add about ~5 secs extra life.
In best case scenario, you will be dead in 6-16 secs. So your survival is still at the mercy of your attacker. You don't have enough time to FSD out even if you submit. And most importantly, have the same cargo capacity as the T-Clipper that can boost away.
For the T6, the shield breaking takes around 3-5 secs. After that the SCB is useless. If it takes 5 secs to fire up, then it is completely useless.
Here are the alpha potential of some ships vs 4 pips. Double if you have only 2 pips at shields.
Vulture, 2 beams: 92.5 in 3.6 secs (0 pips at weps)
Cobra, 2 Med Rails, 2 light Burst : 82.7 in 3.12 secs.
FDL: Plasma, 2 med autocannons, 2 med rails: 147 in 4.59 secs
Clipper: 2 beams, 2 rails: 134 in 3.1 secs
Sidey 2 rails: 54 in 4.7 secs.
This is alpha, after that things start to overheat and energy will be drained. The sustained damage is lower than this.
Anyway, you can compare this to shield strengths.
If you are fast you can leave the damage radius of your attacker. When you are outside his damage range, he can deal you 0 damage. In a T-Cobra, you will survive every and all CMDR attacker all the time. Whether it be a crazy vulture pilot or 4 elite condas or clippers.
When you rely on a shield, you must pray that the attacker can't deal damage fast enough. As the DPS examples above show there is a slim chance for this.
At the same time, I share with you what I have learned. So you can improve your build without doing the same. Again, you are welcome.
I did my fair share in proper pirating but I got disillusioned when it boiled down to political correctness.
Elite: Carebear - FD, bad people can pop my ship, give me a game that is safer for me! FD level the field, strike down the bad guys, teach them how to play nice because I can't. I don't care enough for my own safety, you need to care for me.
You know what? If the bounty for murder was 500k and elite police anacondas would chase me around, I would still pop traders. I don't plan to die and CMDR BHs can't get me (top speed 454). 50k or persisting 50m on my head makes no difference to me. I don't cheat or exploit and mostly attack more expensive ships. I kill fair and square.
Back to topic,
There were several good points above. I don't want to quote them all but here are all the comments to them.
The Vulture can reach 390, but it loses momentum pretty fast after boost. Write this up to air friction. Also, to keep boosting at a good pace, you need 4 pips to drive, that leaves 2 pips to weps. You just halved your damage dealing potential. Same problem with Viper.
Sane Vipers don't attack Clippers. That is the only ship that can outgun and outrun them. The clipper is practically a viper on serious drugs.
Unless the viper is pro and the clipper is lame, the viper will bite the dust. Would you take your chances?
The chaff is pointless. When someone goes out to hunt traders, they mount fixed guns. Traders ships are like flying barns. Very hard not to hit them.
The T-Viper and the T-Cobra are actually cheaper than their trader counterpart. This means their insurance is lower. The Clipper is ~300k more expensive and the Conda is a lot more. The whole point is that the T-C ship will survive, so the insurance will make no difference.
Lets see a shielded transport
Tier 3, T7 vs T-Clipper
T7: 22.2m Cr, Cargo: 184t, Range: 11.3, Top speed: 303
http://www.edshipyard.com/#/L=60X,mpW0_g0_g0_g01Q,2-6a888I6u4s5K5A,0AA0AA7T208c0727fY03w03w
T-Clipper: 28.3m Cr, Cargo: 184t, Range: 9.3, Top speed loaded: 410
The T7 has 4 pips at shield. The shield will go down in 4 secs vs an FDL or Clipper. Not enough to deploy a SCB.
Vs the Cobra and the vulture are about the same, it will last for ~8 secs. SCB deployed, which will add about ~5 secs extra life.
In best case scenario, you will be dead in 6-16 secs. So your survival is still at the mercy of your attacker. You don't have enough time to FSD out even if you submit. And most importantly, have the same cargo capacity as the T-Clipper that can boost away.
For the T6, the shield breaking takes around 3-5 secs. After that the SCB is useless. If it takes 5 secs to fire up, then it is completely useless.
Here are the alpha potential of some ships vs 4 pips. Double if you have only 2 pips at shields.
Vulture, 2 beams: 92.5 in 3.6 secs (0 pips at weps)
Cobra, 2 Med Rails, 2 light Burst : 82.7 in 3.12 secs.
FDL: Plasma, 2 med autocannons, 2 med rails: 147 in 4.59 secs
Clipper: 2 beams, 2 rails: 134 in 3.1 secs
Sidey
2 rails: 54 in 4.7 secs.This is alpha, after that things start to overheat and energy will be drained. The sustained damage is lower than this.
Anyway, you can compare this to shield strengths.
If you are fast you can leave the damage radius of your attacker. When you are outside his damage range, he can deal you 0 damage. In a T-Cobra, you will survive every and all CMDR attacker all the time. Whether it be a crazy vulture pilot or 4 elite condas or clippers.
When you rely on a shield, you must pray that the attacker can't deal damage fast enough. As the DPS examples above show there is a slim chance for this.
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Yep you seem just like one of these ppl who don't get it.
Just popping ships for no ( in Game ) reason is griefing. You elate in making other ppl feel bad. Did you get bullied much? Well now you are giving it back. Fine - but then you probably are one of the ppl who doesn't like the fact that 80% of the Traders play in Solo or Private.
I am all for increased danger - one of my pet peeves are Traders flying around without any kind of defensive armament or shields. But just indiscriminately killing everyone will only lead to those ppl playing solo or private.
As more and more traders go solo Pirating will be even more fruitless meaning the Pirates will get less. You are doing all of as a disservice no matter how much you want to spin your .
I role play a guy who went space crazy after an extensive period of running cargo. He thinks he is the Captain of a WW2 U-Boot out there to hunt traders in Atlantic region. See, I have a perfect in game reason.
Anyway, homicidal maniac is a valid in game role. It is so valid, FD features them in game. There are AI ships who do that. Who just attack players for no reason, ask no cargo and kill if they have a chance. They never have, so I'm out there to fix a broken feature. You are welcome.
Oddly enough, playing Solo or Private has no in-game reason to exist (other than having a crappy net). Maybe Solo means you have a perfect cloacking field around your ship that hides you from pilots with IQ higher than 50. I don't care about that. Feel free to play solo or private to your heart's liking and experience the game Elite: Very safe. It is your decision and the game allows that, so I'm cool with that.
AI ships are dumb because they were carebeared down by FD (so I was told). I guess it is about the lowest common denominator. AI should pose a challenge to the worst players only. If you are better than the worst, well though luck.
"I'm bored" threads are less violent and less frequent than "THIS IS UNPLAYABLE ** *** NONSENSE. AI GRIEFKILLS ME LEFT AND RIGHT!"
Anyway, homicidal maniac is a valid in game role. It is so valid, FD features them in game. There are AI ships who do that. Who just attack players for no reason, ask no cargo and kill if they have a chance. They never have, so I'm out there to fix a broken feature. You are welcome.
Oddly enough, playing Solo or Private has no in-game reason to exist (other than having a crappy net). Maybe Solo means you have a perfect cloacking field around your ship that hides you from pilots with IQ higher than 50. I don't care about that. Feel free to play solo or private to your heart's liking and experience the game Elite: Very safe. It is your decision and the game allows that, so I'm cool with that.
AI ships are dumb because they were carebeared down by FD (so I was told). I guess it is about the lowest common denominator. AI should pose a challenge to the worst players only. If you are better than the worst, well though luck.
"I'm bored" threads are less violent and less frequent than "THIS IS UNPLAYABLE ** *** NONSENSE. AI GRIEFKILLS ME LEFT AND RIGHT!"
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Yes, it's amazing the excuses these idiots make, those who won't play the game. Like the guy who's been ramming ships docking at Leesti for the past few weeks. He's only trying to make the game better by pointing out its flaws!
You can still be dangerous by interdicting traders, demanding "Your money or your life" and then killing them when they choose the second option, as most will (but that's their choice). Do you even send messages? It really annoys me when someone interdicts and says nothing, not even a prepared message.
You can play so as to make the game interesting for others, or you can play just to be an annoyance or worse. You can be a pirate or just a prat.
Getting traders to drop cargo is more difficult than just shooting them, Is that the problem for you?
Your analysis doesn't include Asp victims. Does that mean that I'm safe from you? No need to answer, I know I am.
After watching many hours of pirate twitch streams, it seems clear that fighting back does not increase your chance to survive, unless perhaps you're VERY good. The multipurpose ship has better shields, and that's what allows you to (usually) escape.
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No. What you have is an excuse.
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My role playing not as worthy as a pirate role play or trader role play or BH role play? Even if the AI plays that? Because it is not politically correct? Because lunatics don't exist in real life (knockout game rings any bell)? Or maybe because there is no defense against them. You can't drop 10 tons and wave goodbye. It is because you need to face that you were ill prepared for a situation. This is sad.
I'm yet to see a rammer AI at stations. They are not in game because it is not a valid role. Rammers are exploiting a poor design decision.
ASP are not covered because it is in the T6 range but costs 3x as much. It was important to compare apple to apple as much as possible. The cobra is much better transport than a hauler. It should be, it is 10x more expensive.
Also ASPs have a top speed of 365 - you can't run. A top shield of 380 - not enough to last against a serious attacker let alone a wing. And in this setup, they have ~90 tons cargo capacity. I would take the the Cobra any time over that. Or even the T6. If I won't make it through the attack then why even bother? Cheaper ship less insurance.
I'm yet to see a rammer AI at stations. They are not in game because it is not a valid role. Rammers are exploiting a poor design decision.
ASP are not covered because it is in the T6 range but costs 3x as much. It was important to compare apple to apple as much as possible. The cobra is much better transport than a hauler. It should be, it is 10x more expensive.
Also ASPs have a top speed of 365 - you can't run. A top shield of 380 - not enough to last against a serious attacker let alone a wing. And in this setup, they have ~90 tons cargo capacity. I would take the the Cobra any time over that. Or even the T6. If I won't make it through the attack then why even bother? Cheaper ship less insurance.
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No bc clearly your role is only an excuse to griefe ppl. Also IF you correctly play your role sooner or later your character should die in a blaze of glory - like you know trying to ram a station at full boost with an Conda stuffed full of explosives. Yes there are suicidal maniacs out there but:
- in MMORPG this is played by an unreal amount of players
- they do in rl not have a high life expectancy
- they do NOTHING to make the game more enjoyable for other players
So stop deluding yourself. You are a griefer.
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I know I'm a griefer. The pirates are just muggers. The traders and explorers are just grinders. The BHs are just a Pew-Pew guys. And miners may suffer in some form of OCD.
I, unlike my role played guy, can tell the difference between real and imaginary. But in game, I just use my imagination and blaze my own path. I decided that I don't want to play a shining paladin, a hire gun or a jolly pirate. I went for something different.
My Captain acts the same way an U-Boot Captain would act. Like a cold blooded, calculating hunter who tries to spare his ship and destroy allied cargo.
I, unlike my role played guy, can tell the difference between real and imaginary. But in game, I just use my imagination and blaze my own path. I decided that I don't want to play a shining paladin, a hire gun or a jolly pirate. I went for something different.
My Captain acts the same way an U-Boot Captain would act. Like a cold blooded, calculating hunter who tries to spare his ship and destroy allied cargo.
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Okay.
Yes - however they make the game more enjoyable for others and play a believable role
Your role does nothing to make the game funner and is utterly unbelievable.
I do not mind you playing as such a person - the chances we run into each other are rather small and if it happens ( well I fly like a Brannigan anyway so one more insurance payment won't really upset me ) - you are deluding yourself however if you think that your role is believable to and enjoyable for others.
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Hey, may I ask where did you find these numbers? Thanks!Vulture, 2 beams: 92.5 in 3.6 secs (0 pips at weps)
Cobra, 2 Med Rails, 2 light Burst : 82.7 in 3.12 secs.
FDL: Plasma, 2 med autocannons, 2 med rails: 147 in 4.59 secs
Clipper: 2 beams, 2 rails: 134 in 3.1 secs
Sidey
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trucking_industry_in_the_United_States#Serial_killings_controversy
Did you read this part? Just when I thought I finally managed to come up with a completely insane character development path (cargo hauler flips off and just loses it) I read this.
My role is as believable as yours. This is only a game and we are all there to find some fun within its legal bounds. Until FD tells us that attacking cargo ships is not fair and not how Elite: DANGEROUS was meant to be played, I will stick to this role play.
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Massively useful thread. Rep the guys.
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=140240
I turned it into a kind of excel sheet:
Wep;Size;Type;Dmg/sec;Nrg/s;Dmg/Nrg;Dmg/hit;Dmg/nrg
B;3;F;30.33;5.65;5.37;;
R;3;F;24.97;3.52;7.09;24.97;3.52
B;3;G;24.00;5.59;4.29;;
P;3;F;21.62;2.86;7.56;9.40;1.24
PA;3;F;20.98;3.00;6.99;69.93;10.00
R;3;G;18.56;3.27;5.68;15.47;2.73
P;3;G;18.28;2.98;6.13;5.71;0.93
CA;3;F;8.13;1.20;6.78;20.33;3.00
CA;3;G;7.95;1.10;7.23;19.88;2.75
RG;2;F;21.66;2.45;8.84;43.32;4.90
B;2;F;19.38;3.42;5.67;;
P;2;F;14.29;1.89;7.56;4.20;0.56
B;2;G;13.85;3.26;4.25;;
P;2;G;11.62;1.89;6.15;3.23;0.53
PA;2;F;6.89;2.00;3.45;22.97;6.67
CA;2;F;6.24;1.50;4.16;12.48;3.00
MC;2;F;6.02;1.50;4.01;;
CA;2;G;6.00;1.50;4.00;12.00;3.00
MC;2;G;5.59;1.00;5.59;;
RG;1;F;13.75;1.50;9.17;22.92;2.50
B;1;F;11.61;2.16;5.38;;
R;1;F;9.94;1.40;7.10;6.21;0.88
P;1;F;9.35;1.24;7.54;2.46;0.33
B;1;G;8.70;2.05;4.24;;
R;1;G;7.95;1.40;5.68;4.68;0.82
P;1;G;7.30;1.19;6.13;1.83;0.30
CA;1;F;4.00;0.50;8.00;8.00;1.00
CA;1;G;3.80;0.50;7.60;7.60;1.00
And then calculate various dps scenarios in excel.
Did you read this part? Just when I thought I finally managed to come up with a completely insane character development path (cargo hauler flips off and just loses it) I read this.
My role is as believable as yours. This is only a game and we are all there to find some fun within its legal bounds. Until FD tells us that attacking cargo ships is not fair and not how Elite: DANGEROUS was meant to be played, I will stick to this role play.
- - - Updated - - -
Massively useful thread. Rep the guys.
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=140240
I turned it into a kind of excel sheet:
Wep;Size;Type;Dmg/sec;Nrg/s;Dmg/Nrg;Dmg/hit;Dmg/nrg
B;3;F;30.33;5.65;5.37;;
R;3;F;24.97;3.52;7.09;24.97;3.52
B;3;G;24.00;5.59;4.29;;
P;3;F;21.62;2.86;7.56;9.40;1.24
PA;3;F;20.98;3.00;6.99;69.93;10.00
R;3;G;18.56;3.27;5.68;15.47;2.73
P;3;G;18.28;2.98;6.13;5.71;0.93
CA;3;F;8.13;1.20;6.78;20.33;3.00
CA;3;G;7.95;1.10;7.23;19.88;2.75
RG;2;F;21.66;2.45;8.84;43.32;4.90
B;2;F;19.38;3.42;5.67;;
P;2;F;14.29;1.89;7.56;4.20;0.56
B;2;G;13.85;3.26;4.25;;
P;2;G;11.62;1.89;6.15;3.23;0.53
PA;2;F;6.89;2.00;3.45;22.97;6.67
CA;2;F;6.24;1.50;4.16;12.48;3.00
MC;2;F;6.02;1.50;4.01;;
CA;2;G;6.00;1.50;4.00;12.00;3.00
MC;2;G;5.59;1.00;5.59;;
RG;1;F;13.75;1.50;9.17;22.92;2.50
B;1;F;11.61;2.16;5.38;;
R;1;F;9.94;1.40;7.10;6.21;0.88
P;1;F;9.35;1.24;7.54;2.46;0.33
B;1;G;8.70;2.05;4.24;;
R;1;G;7.95;1.40;5.68;4.68;0.82
P;1;G;7.30;1.19;6.13;1.83;0.30
CA;1;F;4.00;0.50;8.00;8.00;1.00
CA;1;G;3.80;0.50;7.60;7.60;1.00
And then calculate various dps scenarios in excel.
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