Planning to sell an expansion over an incomplete game is wrong!

[Iskariot]

Disagree with most of what you are saying op.

Yes planetary landing was in Frontier (for example) for free, but so what?
First: This is a sequel game and we live in the year 2015 now. FD is not obliged to repeat whatever was done and how it was done 20 or 30 years ago.
Second: Do you have any idea what planetary landings will entail in ED as compared to the prequels? I think in ED planetary landings will be a huge addition that deserves to be a paid for expansion. Also: FD needs to make money. The further development of ED has to be financed somehow.

As far as ship boarding is concerned... your ideas do not have to be FD's ideas. The way you feel it has to be done is just your way. But you are not the one creating this game. This game is not your vision, but that of Braben and his team. They will implement the feature as they see fit. Personally I feel what you are proposing will not work in a game like this. As far as I gather FD want ship boarding to be a personal experience, not just a bunch of statistics.

I like the economical model you are talking about: raw->refined->industrial->luxury. I have been thinking about that myself.
Currently I do miss the step from ores to refined metals for example. I feel that is an important omission.

Like you I feel that the game needs fleshing out, but unlike you I do not feel that all the features I want should have been in from the start.
I do understand that this is a huge and unique project and that FD wanted to use the game to partly fund it's own development by starting sales in December. I have no problem with that at all and I knew from the start what I was getting into. When I bought the game and it's expansion pass I knew I bought into a development journey and I love to be part of it and seeing it progress.

Last but not east I think a more restrained way of formulating your ideas might serve you better.

 

[babelfisch]

For those who think OP is too long, here is a brief summary of what he is saying:

I like Elite games. Elite Dangerous is incomplete. I am 38 and have played games before. I dont think there should be paid expansions. Planetary landings should be in the game already and the ship boarding should be based on a text adventure instead of real action. Power play and wings should have been there 6 months ago. I dont like the trading system and it should be like Eve. I would like to see more AI maneuvers. I dont like bars, numbers are more to my liking. I think FDEV hates me because they annoy me with bars.

Thats basically it.

 

[Herik]

Yup. As soon as a thread starts, "Before any torch carrying fly boys yelling...", you know the poster KNOWS he is wrong from the get go. Aaaaaand, yup. He's wrong.

Yeah I read a couple of his paragraphs and realized he's just a shaky negative head.

- - - Updated - - -

For those who think OP is too long, here is a brief summary of what he is saying:



Thats basically it.

It's a very boring post...

 

[Elgered]

...
"Planing to sell an expansion over an incomplete game is wrong!" ...

Of course it is. I hope Frontier has learned from E:F and respects this. I believe the first expansion will arrive as soon, as the basic game is finished. It is clear, what has to be in the game.

What they are planing to sell us with money why we should against these :

1 - Planetary landing - This ability has in 2mb Floppy version of the game and this ability is expected when they are making this game from the start, game released and we dont have it

2- Ship Boarding - This should not be an expansion ability, for just selling your "FPS Playing Style" you cant force us buying it.You should do this "Ship Boarding" with "Hired NPC Marines", we do not need to see them in action or be there actually. Voiced Text Briefing and statistical Text information can do the job. The Marines' Experience effects the success rate and those Marines who survived the mission get experience and improve the future Mission Successes.

Planetary landing should imho become part of the basic game, when the addon is released. In its basics it should contain landing on a surface-port that's treated like a station or outpost (because otherwise it would make the game unplayable in open when some can land and others can't). Everything else (FPS style: walking in the ship, stations, exploring planets,...) should be instanced for addon customers. Maybe people like it and buy it.

Ship boarding is something I don't want (right now), so I don't want to pay for it. IMHO FPS style doesn't match the concept of ELITE. Again - I still want to continue to play the basic game.
In other MMOs addons and extensions usually are no problem, I guess FD will be able to handle that.

What should be in the game since it released "Day One" :

1 - The Missions : As we know that they will fix the missions with "Power Play" , they said they will scale the missions with the player's progress (Combat Rating . Explore Rating and Trade Rating + Faction Rating (System Controlling Faction and Sub Factions Rating). So they have waited nearly 6 months to implement this and made us kill the "Resource Extraction NPCs + NAV Point NPCs + UUN NPCs over and over and over and over, with no variety and plus to this "You have rewarded 16.000 Credits from mission delivery", are you kidding me!! 16.000 credits for killing 20 pirate (worth of 1.000.000 Credit) and you are rewarding me 16.000 credit for completing the mission. Now after 6 Months you are saying we'll fix this , you had fixed it before you release the game because this is not a "BUG" , this is the game future which it has supposed to be at the first release.

Yes, you are right. Missions needed the overhaul too badly. But in addition they need to be completed. Passenger Transport is still missing as well as some depth to the system by implementing NPCs instead of / in addition to anonymous factions

2 - Wings : Yes the famous "Wings Update", "UPDATE", hmm, Fix me if i'm wrong but you have planned this game as a Space Sim MMORPG right? cause game interactions effecting game universe and the players in it and player to player actions effecting game mechanics, so this game is designed to be played Multiplayer (even our data stored online, including saves). So how come you havent thought this "Wings Ability" from the start, i'm seriously wondering , if your answer is "We had to release the game at "Christmas Sale Madness" to earn money front, then you fooled us with it because you sold game at your website with the tag of "Elite : Dangerous is Released" you havent wrote there " Elite Dangerous is Released with %50 Complete" or "Elite Dangerous ***BETA*** Released" there will be no other answer to this cause the game is half baked right now and this proves it.

OK, and it is still missing lots of MMO basics (communication, better instancing, player factions, bank, player trading, special items,...)

3 - Trading : Again this obvious game future has been broken from the start and they said they'll fix it at "Power Play" , but we dont know how they are going to do it. Probably most of you have played X- Beyond the Frontier game series, that game represents best trading mechanic at the game sector.

Yes - trading is a source for player income, but it doesn't have a good background simulation, its not really fun without noticeable dynamics. But please don't compare ELITE and X.

So how could be a good economy;

Basic Structure of an Economy

1. Raw Resources
2. Raw Resources ---> Refined Resources
3. Refined Resources ---> Industrial Goods
4. Industrial Goods ----> Luxury Goods / Tech Goods / Agri-Cultural Goods etc etc etc

So for this structure to work there will be limited or time limited resources be needed. So this will give birth to Supply - Demand mechanic. Well what we have right now is "Unlimited Resources + Refined Goods + Industrial Goods+ etc,etc,etc" we players or NPCs have no control over these. What i mean by this,

Forexample; Lets say "Station X" needs "Cobalt Ore" , so what does "Station X" need to do

1. Need to send its own Ore Mining Ships to Asteroid Belts / send its Tradeships to other sectors to get "Cobalt Ore" / Players needs to feed the station with the Cobalt Ore
2. Those ships needs to dock to the station and supply it with the "Cobalt Ore" needed
3. After Processing "Cobalt ore" to a "Good" then list it at its sell order
4. If the "Cobalt Ore" stock starting to drop from "Surplus" then the price of the "Goods" go up

So what does this do good to us;

1. If Station supply chain broken "Mining ships / Trade Ships" destroyed at the process then prices go up (Pirating Opportunity + Piracy for Manupulating the System Economy by the Traders)
2. So when you want to buy "X Good" you'll see that its production is very low (right now the production is based on time , no matter what heppens it is producing goods from out of nowhere, like a god), or you'll see no produced "goods" because the supply has broken
3. This fragile trade system has been accomplished by 2 games 1 - X Beyond The Frontier Series , 2 - Eve Online. If you want dynamic economy you have to deliver the leashes of the economy (%80) to the players (%20 for basic items that is coming from the planets (medicine, grain etc etc) , you can deliver that %10 of that %20 to players when you implement Planetary Landing and the Living Cities to the game)

there is one problem: the economy is far too big for players to maintain even if many people say the "bubble" is too small. Once again - it would require a massively improved and much more complex background simulation with persistent NPCs balancing the economy between Player profit and working industry.

4 - Combat : At last we have come to most exciting and fragile system of the game. The combat is mostly predictable , what i mean;lets have an example of a Viper NPC Pirate and you have a Cobra. As players we know that Viper can out manuver the Cobra, but out gunned against Cobra, if Cobra catch the Viper from the back then its over, realy?, no! , because Viper and all of the ships, i mean ALL ,counting Anaconda, doing this manuver;

• As soon as all ships which has lost its shield starts to turn around you in circles, no matter the size, no matter the guns it has, doing maniacly this move. Have you ever seen an Elite Anaconda from up close, no?, when it choose to attack you it fires 2 x Plasma Cannons (if it gets you 90 Degree of its Crosshair), 2 x Plasma Cannon can take down ASP, Cobra , Viper ......small size of everything and the rest of his Beams and Pulses and Multicannons, it is a one hell of a Flying Castle, but.......... with all this fire power what is it doing when shields down?..........Guesses?.. no? It starts to Circleeeeeeeeee, the god damn Circleeeeeeeeeeee, it can kill with all his weapons in 10 sec but it chooses to Circleeeeeee. This stupid combat behaviour has to change, there is tons of combat moves you can give to that Anaconda or to any ship in the game but you have given one Script and that is "If shields down, do Circle" command. I suggest to good ED Developers to play the "Wing Commander" game series, you'll see what i mean by manuvers + NPC Wing Play (one busying you with manuvers and other one hunting you from the back, by busying i mean intentionaly doing it not escaping from you)

Combat AI can be improved constantly, yes. I will for sure!

- Items: Why you hate us, seriously, I am sure you have intentionaly created most of the items for to make us paranoid. What am i talking about? This;

1. All weapons "Weapon System Capacitor Usage" "BARSSSSSSSSSS" / "BLOCKSSSSSSS" some has 2 bars, some has 3 , 4 , 5 .................., "BARS" / "BLOCKS" arent a measure!!! kWh and Jule is a measure for energy usage and those measures needs numbers , not blocks. Why i'm saying ;because right now my Pulse Laser E3 Describtion saying 4 BARS and i dont know how much of that A7 Class Power Distribution (61.000 kWh) (Recharge 6.100 kWh) compansate that 4 BARRRRRRRRSSSS. So what we players do we buy highest Power Distributor, then we buy weapons and go out the station , leave the firing range 10km, then start activating weapons by group, 2x Pulse Shooot Shoooott Shoott , ok Stable, now 3x Pulse shoot shoot , hmm going down in 20 sec. Why are we doing this, because 6.100 kWh / 4 BARS means nothing, gives you nothing. But you are definitely know what that 4 BARS means, because you have created them, so my question is why dont you give the exact numbers instead of BARS / BLOCKS to us.

Note : If you have done this for 14 year old Play Station / Xbox Kids , then tell their families to teach their children basic maths forexp: 1 Block + 1 Block = 2 Blocks

These are my thoughts about the game as a fan of the game. I'll edit if i come up with things i want to share with you.

Not only with the items in game. Every aspect could use some maths and clear numbers!

Have a nice day.

same to you
Thanks for your opinion, it will be intensively discussed.

 

[babelfisch]

I love bars.

If you ever come to germany I will gladly show you some of my favorites.

 

[Druid]

I must be missing something. From kick starter I was under the impression planetary landings and boarding other ships were to be paid for expansions. Did I misread all the kick starter stuff or something? It was one of the reasons I bought the expansion pack from the beginning all those years ago .

 

[Holven]

This what i am saying too, i am not against expansions, i am against to put basic futures of the game to expansion. Like you said, first add the futures that needs in the main game and put the new contents to the expansions, i am happy to pay 200 euro/ pound to that.

But dear Arexac, planetary landings, as envisioned, even though it was in an earlier game, in a much simpler form, cannot be seen as a basic feature. It is a code and graphical monstrosity, which will take untold man hours to finish. We are talking an insane amount of hours just designing all the landscape features that are going to be placed in the source database. It is simply not possible to make that piece of code, without financing it separately. Of course I wish it wasn't so, but economical realities simply can't be avoided.

Simply put; there is a choice between paying for planetary landings or not getting them at all.

 

[Marc Alexander]

I must be missing something. From kick starter I was under the impression planetary landings and boarding other ships were to be paid for expansions. Did I misread all the kick starter stuff or something? It was one of the reasons I bought the expansion pack from the beginning all those years ago .

Don't worry. Nothing to see here. Move along..

 

[Holven]

I must be missing something. From kick starter I was under the impression planetary landings and boarding other ships were to be paid for expansions. Did I misread all the kick starter stuff or something? It was one of the reasons I bought the expansion pack from the beginning all those years ago .

You are correct. And I did the same. It has always been announced that way. That somebody complain about it now, only makes people think there is something wrong. Only one promise was broken and that was the offline version, and that was because it simply wasn't doable anymore. Everything people claim are missing, were never promised to be in at launch. Some of it wasn't explicitly stated wouldn't be in at launch either, but that is not the same as stating that it is.

 

[Krait_79]

Before any torch carrying fly boys yelling, know that i love Elite games and i have big gratitude for the Developers who made this game. What i'm going to explain is how i feel right now with the game's current situation.

"Planing to sell an expansion over an incomplete game is wrong!" this idea is keep bugging me since i heard it from David. As the players who are now playing the game know that game is incomplete (if i have to give a rate it will be %50). I'm 38 years old and playing this game from the first elite, i have a good history with the game and knows its game mechanics, so when i bought the game , my first impression is "Thats it, this is what Elite should be", then after playing from 01.01.2015 to this date 21.05.2015, realizing that there are tons of incomplete things in the game that has made previous Elite games awesome and planing to sell us those game abilities with money, this is not just.

What they are planing to sell us with money why we should against these :

1 - Planetary landing - This ability has in 2mb Floppy version of the game and this ability is expected when they are making this game from the start, game released and we dont have it

2- Ship Boarding - This should not be an expansion ability, for just selling your "FPS Playing Style" you cant force us buying it.You should do this "Ship Boarding" with "Hired NPC Marines", we do not need to see them in action or be there actually. Voiced Text Briefing and statistical Text information can do the job. The Marines' Experience effects the success rate and those Marines who survived the mission get experience and improve the future Mission Successes.


What should be in the game since it released "Day One" :

1 - The Missions : As we know that they will fix the missions with "Power Play" , they said they will scale the missions with the player's progress (Combat Rating . Explore Rating and Trade Rating + Faction Rating (System Controlling Faction and Sub Factions Rating). So they have waited nearly 6 months to implement this and made us kill the "Resource Extraction NPCs + NAV Point NPCs + UUN NPCs over and over and over and over, with no variety and plus to this "You have rewarded 16.000 Credits from mission delivery", are you kidding me!! 16.000 credits for killing 20 pirate (worth of 1.000.000 Credit) and you are rewarding me 16.000 credit for completing the mission. Now after 6 Months you are saying we'll fix this , you had fixed it before you release the game because this is not a "BUG" , this is the game future which it has supposed to be at the first release.

2 - Wings : Yes the famous "Wings Update", "UPDATE", hmm, Fix me if i'm wrong but you have planned this game as a Space Sim MMORPG right? cause game interactions effecting game universe and the players in it and player to player actions effecting game mechanics, so this game is designed to be played Multiplayer (even our data stored online, including saves). So how come you havent thought this "Wings Ability" from the start, i'm seriously wondering , if your answer is "We had to release the game at "Christmas Sale Madness" to earn money front, then you fooled us with it because you sold game at your website with the tag of "Elite : Dangerous is Released" you havent wrote there " Elite Dangerous is Released with %50 Complete" or "Elite Dangerous ***BETA*** Released" there will be no other answer to this cause the game is half baked right now and this proves it.

3 - Trading : Again this obvious game future has been broken from the start and they said they'll fix it at "Power Play" , but we dont know how they are going to do it. Probably most of you have played X- Beyond the Frontier game series, that game represents best trading mechanic at the game sector. So how could be a good economy;

Basic Structure of an Economy

1. Raw Resources
2. Raw Resources ---> Refined Resources
3. Refined Resources ---> Industrial Goods
4. Industrial Goods ----> Luxury Goods / Tech Goods / Agri-Cultural Goods etc etc etc

So for this structure to work there will be limited or time limited resources be needed. So this will give birth to Supply - Demand mechanic. Well what we have right now is "Unlimited Resources + Refined Goods + Industrial Goods+ etc,etc,etc" we players or NPCs have no control over these. What i mean by this,

Forexample; Lets say "Station X" needs "Cobalt Ore" , so what does "Station X" need to do

1. Need to send its own Ore Mining Ships to Asteroid Belts / send its Tradeships to other sectors to get "Cobalt Ore" / Players needs to feed the station with the Cobalt Ore
2. Those ships needs to dock to the station and supply it with the "Cobalt Ore" needed
3. After Processing "Cobalt ore" to a "Good" then list it at its sell order
4. If the "Cobalt Ore" stock starting to drop from "Surplus" then the price of the "Goods" go up

So what does this do good to us;

1. If Station supply chain broken "Mining ships / Trade Ships" destroyed at the process then prices go up (Pirating Opportunity + Piracy for Manupulating the System Economy by the Traders)
2. So when you want to buy "X Good" you'll see that its production is very low (right now the production is based on time , no matter what heppens it is producing goods from out of nowhere, like a god), or you'll see no produced "goods" because the supply has broken
3. This fragile trade system has been accomplished by 2 games 1 - X Beyond The Frontier Series , 2 - Eve Online. If you want dynamic economy you have to deliver the leashes of the economy (%80) to the players (%20 for basic items that is coming from the planets (medicine, grain etc etc) , you can deliver that %10 of that %20 to players when you implement Planetary Landing and the Living Cities to the game)

4 - Combat : At last we have come to most exciting and fragile system of the game. The combat is mostly predictable , what i mean;lets have an example of a Viper NPC Pirate and you have a Cobra. As players we know that Viper can out manuver the Cobra, but out gunned against Cobra, if Cobra catch the Viper from the back then its over, realy?, no! , because Viper and all of the ships, i mean ALL ,counting Anaconda, doing this manuver;

• As soon as all ships which has lost its shield starts to turn around you in circles, no matter the size, no matter the guns it has, doing maniacly this move. Have you ever seen an Elite Anaconda from up close, no?, when it choose to attack you it fires 2 x Plasma Cannons (if it gets you 90 Degree of its Crosshair), 2 x Plasma Cannon can take down ASP, Cobra , Viper ......small size of everything and the rest of his Beams and Pulses and Multicannons, it is a one hell of a Flying Castle, but.......... with all this fire power what is it doing when shields down?..........Guesses?.. no? It starts to Circleeeeeeeeee, the god damn Circleeeeeeeeeeee, it can kill with all his weapons in 10 sec but it chooses to Circleeeeeee. This stupid combat behaviour has to change, there is tons of combat moves you can give to that Anaconda or to any ship in the game but you have given one Script and that is "If shields down, do Circle" command. I suggest to good ED Developers to play the "Wing Commander" game series, you'll see what i mean by manuvers + NPC Wing Play (one busying you with manuvers and other one hunting you from the back, by busying i mean intentionaly doing it not escaping from you)

5- Items: Why you hate us, seriously, I am sure you have intentionaly created most of the items for to make us paranoid. What am i talking about? This;

1. All weapons "Weapon System Capacitor Usage" "BARSSSSSSSSSS" / "BLOCKSSSSSSS" some has 2 bars, some has 3 , 4 , 5 .................., "BARS" / "BLOCKS" arent a measure!!! kWh and Jule is a measure for energy usage and those measures needs numbers , not blocks. Why i'm saying ;because right now my Pulse Laser E3 Describtion saying 4 BARS and i dont know how much of that A7 Class Power Distribution (61.000 kWh) (Recharge 6.100 kWh) compansate that 4 BARRRRRRRRSSSS. So what we players do we buy highest Power Distributor, then we buy weapons and go out the station , leave the firing range 10km, then start activating weapons by group, 2x Pulse Shooot Shoooott Shoott , ok Stable, now 3x Pulse shoot shoot , hmm going down in 20 sec. Why are we doing this, because 6.100 kWh / 4 BARS means nothing, gives you nothing. But you are definitely know what that 4 BARS means, because you have created them, so my question is why dont you give the exact numbers instead of BARS / BLOCKS to us.

Note : If you have done this for 14 year old Play Station / Xbox Kids , then tell their families to teach their children basic maths forexp: 1 Block + 1 Block = 2 Blocks

These are my thoughts about the game as a fan of the game. I'll edit if i come up with things i want to share with you.

Have a nice day.

Couldn't be bothered to trawl through all this nonsense but i did stop to laugh at the planetary landing bit, and you expecting it from day one.

You do realise the scale of what needs to be done to get this to work right? It will essentially be a whole new game yet you expect it from straight off.

Are you actually capable of grasping the reality here and the scale and complexity? You might like to think things through a bit before you come on here whining away!

 

[Obtuse]

So, OP complains about things clearly stated in the kick starter, Upcoming patch notes, forum threads, ect. Other commanders post TLDR then indulge in personal opinions about the OP, commanders going off topic, the thread is just asking for a mod to close it.

(I do apologize to the 1 or 2 people trying to have an honest discussion on the topic.)

 

[Snakebite]

<snip>
No dev team could have done what you are asking for and to date I am still amazed at just how much FD did actually deliver. <snip>

I Think in some ways they have done well, I personally can accept that it is a WIP and more will be added later (some of it paid content) and that is perfectluy OK with me, but what is annoying is that we expected the new paid addons be be actually NEW stuff, not stuff that was expected from the previous games such as the seamless atmospheric flight that was in FE2 and FFE, Or Thargoids that existed in the very first game.

The Game HAS been released with some the most basic expected components missing.

Let me give a real world example, I bought a new van a while ago and after a few months I decided that I wanted crew cab seats and windows in the rear so I took it to the dealer who organised the work to be carried out and I was happy to pay for those addons. What would not have been right would be that if after buying the van I had to go back and buy a set of wheels and a windscreen.

 

[ocflyer]

Given the quality of the initial release and the several FREE updates, I'm quite happy with the $60 price. It was a great deal. I spent $630 on the gamer headset, TrackIR Pro, and X-52 Pro, so $60 for the game was nothing (the gamer headset was tax deductible!). And I'd gladly pay for expansion packs that have notable content because it will keep FD and their game servers in business so that I can continue to play. I like some of the OPs ideas but for him to expect all of that in the first release is wildly unrealistic and would have meant a release after the first commercial release of competitors (e.g. Star Citizen). I know that it is wildly unrealistic because I've been a professional software engineer for the last 33 years producing successful mission critical software for several products. For an understaffed team to have delivered the content in their first release when they did, they deserve my applause, not criticism.

 

[babelfisch]

I Think in some ways they have done well, I personally can accept that it is a WIP and more will be added later (some of it paid content) and that is perfectluy OK with me, but what is annoying is that we expected the new paid addons be be actually NEW stuff, not stuff that was expected from the previous games such as the seamless atmospheric flight that was in FE2 and FFE, Or Thargoids that existed in the very first game.

The Game HAS been released with some the most basic expected components missing.

Let me give a real world example, I bought a new van a while ago and after a few months I decided that I wanted crew cab seats and windows in the rear so I took it to the dealer who organised the work to be carried out and I was happy to pay for those addons. What would not have been right would be that if after buying the van I had to go back and buy a set of wheels and a windscreen.

I totally fail to understand your real world example. However, Thargoids are not part of a paid expansion.

 

[nicomak]

Well i dont know if you're right or not but they did use the word expansion for thargoids in the past. but maybe they meant 'free update'. They didnt say paid expansion afaik.

 

[Jaeger]

TLDR: I am detecting a high pitched whining sound though.

rotflmao

 

[Ancipital]

I didn't expect planetary landings.

Especially the part where they said planetary landings wouldn't be in the game and would be a paid expansion was a give-away.

More importantly, will the Spanish Inquisition be a free expansion? I know that we all expect that.

 

[Komemiute]

More importantly, will the Spanish Inquisition be a free expansion? I know that we all expect that.

Well, No one expect... oh wait...

 

[kilvenny]

I have sat musing on this thread for several hours and particular the OP's post. I am going to limit myself to reflecting on the initial premise.

This game would not have been made without the Kickstarter validating that there was interest. FD did not have the money to invest to make the game they wanted to make and nor could they attract the funding to make it. Even with the Kickstarter money, a stock market launch and revolving credit with the bank they did not have enough money. Instead FD went back to their roots and made a remake of Elite - the first game with no planet landings and a similar flight model, but adding multiplayer. Even limiting themselves to that there was still not enough funds to do the necessary development, so they looked at what the core elements were that needed to be there and focused on those.

1. Flight and combat
2. A Galaxy
3. UI - Including controller and VR support
4. Networking for some form of multi player (p2p forced because of cost).

Other elements could be fleshed out later if the game was successful but those 4 elements are essential for a space game.

Lots of elements could be added in a basic form and supplemented over time. Ships, station types/variety, ship equipment, trading and better multiplayer could be added later.

If they had a basic game to release then it could be sold and the revenue stream would fund the game going forward allowing them to add content over time and look at expansions.

If the size of the game is mind boggling now, the concept that a considerable number of those planets would have something to fly over and something to do on them is a staggering development to contemplate. I really struggle with the concept that a development like that should not be considered a chargeable expansion.

 

[SteveLaw]

Well i dont know if you're right or not but they did use the word expansion for thargoids in the past. but maybe they meant 'free update'. They didnt say paid expansion afaik.

Thargoids are expanding you say?