Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread - Part the Second [Now With Added Platforms].

[fademist]

selfless.

i want the game to do really well.

i'm a console gamer who is suffering having to play ED on a laptop.

i cant wait for ED to be released on xbox one.
i can sit back in my chair and look at a 40 inch screen.
i'll be able to wing up with my mates and talk to them as we play.

but the way the game is at the moment....

i already know that they will play for a while and get bored.
or they'll get murdered once too often and stop playing.

i want open mode to be the buzzing thriving galaxy its described as
but there's no way it will happen if things stay the way they are now.

its a big thing to have elite on a console.
we've had to suffer childish 'fast food' gaming for years.
ED is a more mature and sophisticated experience.

if it does well on the xbox one, we'll get more games of better quality.

if it fails we'll be stuck with the same old crap and it will have been an opportunity missed.

as it stands now, there arent that many good games on xbox one.
if there were hundreds to choose from, ED would be competing for peoples money
but the space is there. more people will buy and play it because of the limited choice
but if it fails, the disquiet will be amplified for exactly the same reasons.

its good that console's open wont be among pc/mac then ..they only share the same universe

 

[fademist]

But that was a single player only game.. The issue isn't the game (that is another topic) but the fact FD are trying to scoop any potential players in buy telling them it is a MMO and a Single Player game.

Generally a game is either one or the other or primary one with the other tacked on.

i would said we just need to give it time and see what happens and in the mean time we enjoy it

 

[Jockey79]

i would hope that you dont see me as being a baby seal clubber.
thats just not the kinda person i am.

but if thats whats really behind all this.....

and if it is... i do understand....

would finding solutions to those problems make you feel more inclined to play in open?

(as it happens, even though my first impressions of you were not.... wholly positive,
you're alright when you're not in 'sparring mode' !)

i truly have no interest in spoiling anyones enjoyment, or taking anything away from anyone

Well, as I said earlier, Mobius has everything the Open mode does except the baby seal clubbing (and I have played Open twice, one is logged in this thread) so I tend to make the assumption those vigorously pursuing and pushing Open mode are indeed the baby seal clubbers.

As for what is behind all of this, most of the arguments brought forward to change the game revolve around only a few points. Clubbers wanting baby seals, people who didn't read up on the game (or misunderstood what it is) or people who just like to complain and use any excuse to do so.

For the defence we have, those who did read up on the game and bought it for what it is (and want it to remain that way), people with social anxiety disorders and don't want to be forced into social situations, people with poor hardware and/or poor internet and cannot play Open even if they want to and people who play the game to relax/ chill out in a non-confrontational way.

Now, from the attacking side - seal clubbers are their own worst enemy, as they will run out of targets sooner or later and FD have made it quite clear they are not changing the modes (so moaning here is their only outlet for the frustrations of not having anyone to club) so they will be in this thread for the foreseeable future. Those who didn't read up on the game or didn't understand, turn up and moan for a few pages - get bored (or fed up with my wall of info being thrown at them) and move on. The last group will never leave and use circular arguments to keep this topic alive as they live to moan (the numbers however "may" thin out when Star Citizen goes live).

As for the defense, well look at the post count for the thread, first three (3) people listed - Steve, Fade and myself (in this order) with TheSpaceTexan (Open Advocate) in fourth (4th). While I cannot speak for any them, I personally am one (1) part "person who researched the game", one (1) part "social anxiety" and a dash of "casual play to chill out" - so the idea of being forced into high octane action style of play with lots of random strangers, just out right gets my back up.

Right now, everyone is equal - we all have exactly the same options open to us - it does not get more equal than that. Now applying bonuses to Open only, by default excludes social anxiety folks and poor hardware/internet folks. Locking the modes or having more than one (1) BGS breaks with the advertised product and also digs up the Offline Debate due to part of the reason being, the BGS and FD not wanting multiple copies of it.

A PvP toggle/Flag/Switch was talked about, but then lots of PvP folk didn't like the idea of non attackable players in Open as it breaks their immersion. It was also suggested about NPCs and PCs being the same on the scanner, but that is futile as you can work around it anyway.

So there we have it. The dead lock. No real way out of it apart from FD pulling the MMO tag and refunding those who wanted a "typical" style MMO (not that I can see).

Oh, and I'm always in sparing mode lol

 

[TartanDragon]

FD need to work out what type of game this is

I think Fdev have already worked out what type of game this is. It is now up to those that choose to play it, to adapt or not as the case, and this thread show.

 

[Fire70]

its good that console's open wont be among pc/mac then ..they only share the same universe

This is one thing I can't really understand, a totally different platform not being interactive at all but being able to affect my game.....

i would said we just need to give it time and see what happens and in the mean time we enjoy it

I'm sure it will go either one of two ways.

Those expecting the MMO experience will play for a while either see nobody or get grief'd if they do see others then either leave or play solo then leaving after a little while because what there is to do won't keep the average gamer occupied for very long, especially if they were looking for a EVE type game.. Result FD have their money and nothing is lost..

For those expecting the solo experience it will come down to if the game meet's their expectations and if they get into PP, how they feel they are helping their power. Also if they perceive the game is pushing towards a MMO game they may leave if they feel like a poor cousin.. Again a win for FD because they have your money..

But again I play both so don't really care other then FD making the game feel less like a grind and more like a sandbox which I feel it is failing at now..

 

[WlLL0W]

I'll ask you what I asked Cryon: What is it exactly that you want Frontier to do?

here's what i want them to do.

firstly add a dueling mechanic.

target someone, fire a short birst at them, this opens up a duel dialog which can be accepted or refused.
after five seconds the request is automatically refused.
firing again within one minute of a refusal , or ramming will result in wanted status

other than that, all commanders are immune to attack, except those who are wanted.

second

pirates and traders

if a trader gets interdicted, he can CHOOSE to release some cargo.
if he refuses then the pirate will be able to blow the traders cargo hatch.
at which point 10% of the cargo will be released.
the remainder of the cargo, and the trading vessel will suffer no more damage
and the trader will be immune from further interdiction for two hours.

this will give the trader the comfort of knowing he wont lose his ship,
and will only lose a small amount of cargo.
it will also allow the trader to practice interdiction evasion and escape tactics.

also the pirate gets reward for his efforts. and wanted status

thirdly

i would like to see a galaxy wide task force staffed by actual commanders
maybe limited numbers though. 150 to start with.

becoming part of the task force requires a clean ish record
and successful completion of three tests

first one is a solo checkpoint race through a challenging envioronment.
this is to prove competence of piloting skills

second would be destroying a number of hostile targets which are flying amongst friendlies
this is to demonstrate the ability to avoid friendly fire

thirdly

the applicant must destroy a potentially overwhelming force.

this will demonstrate combat skills.

task force officers are the only pilots in the game who can engage criminals in the no fire zones
and stations tolerate accidental fire.

also give task force pilots a new ship which is to be feared by everyone else.

forthly

add to the game a dedicated PVP arena with various different PVP modes. max 16 players.

-----------------------------------------

this will give everyone a safe ish, consentual MMO galaxy to play in
pirates can still pirate
traders can trade in safety with minimal losses (and a bit of excitement every now and then)
people can fulfill there destructive appetites in the arena
explorers can do their thing no problems
and griefers will be dealt with by the task force.

there would need to be a few adjustments where community goals are concerned though.

 

[Roland2]

That is true, catering to both leaves a bitter taste in everyone's mouth, noone is left satisfied.

A lot if people are satisfied with E. I don't have a bitter taste in my mouth. Of course, if I was to vote for any changes related to the modes, it would be to get rid of PVP completely, so no help to you at all.

 

[cryon1cang3l]

I think Fdev have already worked out what type of game this is. It is now up to those that choose to play it, to adapt or not as the case, and this thread show.

If so, why is every tag on steam etc telling us something else?
This game has singleplayer affected by other people and a multiplayer where people can affect your world from 2 different modes and the only thing that you can do, is sit there and enjoy the pain in the bottom area
The idea is fresh and actually not bad, but this, combined with the current game mechanics is killing all the massive interaction that would be possible otherways.
Imagine your CG, a trading one, with 1 taget station and 5k people are active at the prime time. I want to see all of them, this is a part of the multiplayer expirience. Then i can decide what i want to do there.

And i have nothing against baby seals armed with railguns. Still better than empty space.
The normal space out there is pretty empty, but in a game it gets boring pretty fast. I just want the usual world that can be changed with some simple actions. You can outgrind your opponent or simply force him away. You can take control over a system by force, with politics or whatever else - right now its not possible.

I dont play it anymore, just like many still active games. And i wait till it will be what i want. But the point is - there are not so many games to switch to. If i get bored in DayZ, i fire up Rust, H1Z1 or a ton of other survival games.
So far i have to get my adrenaline part flying in Ace Combat: Assault Horizon, and everyone who knows how it works will know what i want.

 

[WlLL0W]

its good that console's open wont be among pc/mac then ..they only share the same universe

in a few years EVERYONE will be playing together regardless of format.

 

[fademist]

in a few years EVERYONE will be playing together regardless of format.

until that time though...

 

[Jockey79]

If so, why is every tag on steam etc telling us something else?
....... I want to see all of them, this is a part of the multiplayer expirience....

Just those two (2) points to address.

1) The Steam tags list this game as basicly - everything. A Single, a Multi, an MMO. So really, it is pointless to keep bringing them up as they do not serve a purpose anymore, apart from to confuse anyone who did not read the Kickstarter and DDA.

2) Two (2) people constitute a "multiplayer" experience. The absolute hard cap is 32, Roybe has already pointed out that during Lugh they only managed to get 12 together and that was a nightmare to do. So this game is never, ever, ever going to be what you want, period.

What really gets me, is you know that second point, yet you keep demanding large scale (EVE like) battles even though you know it is not possible within this P2P structure.

- - - Updated - - -

in a few years EVERYONE will be playing together regardless of format.

They can do it now, but then people won't buy 2 copies of the same game if they enable it (yes, I know folks who own various games twice, one (1) for PC and one (1) for XBox).

I've wondered who from the forums will buy ED on XBox when it comes out, even though they have it on PC.

 

[cryon1cang3l]

Just those two (2) points to address.

1) The Steam tags list this game as basicly - everything. A Single, a Multi, an MMO. So really, it is pointless to keep bringing them up as they do not serve a purpose anymore, apart from to confuse anyone who did not read the Kickstarter and DDA.

2) Two (2) people constitute a "multiplayer" experience. The absolute hard cap is 32, Roybe has already pointed out that during Lugh they only managed to get 12 together and that was a nightmare to do. So this game is never, ever, ever going to be what you want, period.

What really gets me, is you know that second point, yet you keep demanding large scale (EVE like) battles even though you know it is not possible within this P2P structure.

Like i already said, i expected the p2p to be a temporary solution for the sake of testing and a good launch (cause so many games in the last years had HUGE problems with it, even games with way more money spent on the infrastructure behind them).
If they dont change it, it will not be possible to see more than 10-15 people without problems like high ping, packet loss, lags, rubber banding and all other nice things that belong to p2p networks in realtime applications.
And the only way to get something is to actually ask for it. Nobody gives you something good, specially if they dont even know what you like.

 

[Fire70]

here's what i want them to do.

firstly add a dueling mechanic.

target someone, fire a short birst at them, this opens up a duel dialog which can be accepted or refused.
after five seconds the request is automatically refused.

other than that, all commanders are immune to attack, except those who are wanted.

second

pirates and traders

if a trader gets interdicted, he can CHOOSE to release some cargo.
if he refuses then the pirate will be able to blow the traders cargo hatch.
at which point 10% of the cargo will be released.
the remainder of the cargo, and the trading vessel will suffer no more damage
and the trader will be immune from further interdiction for two hours.

this will give the trader the comfort of knowing he wont lose his ship,
and will only lose a small amount of cargo.
it will also allow the trader to practice interdiction evasion and escape tactics.

also the pirate gets reward for his efforts. and wanted status

thirdly

i would like to see a galaxy wide task force staffed by actual commanders
maybe limited numbers though. 150 to start with.

becoming part of the task force requires a clean ish record
and successful completion of three tests

first one is a solo checkpoint race through a challenging envioronment.
this is to prove competence of piloting skills

second would be destroying a number of hostile targets which are flying amongst friendlies
this is to demonstrate the ability to avoid friendly fire

thirdly

the applicant must destroy a potentially overwhelming force.

this will demonstrate combat skills.

task force officers are the only pilots in the game who can engage criminals in the no fire zones
and stations tolerate accidental fire.

also give task force pilots a new ship which is to be feared by everyone else.

forthly

add to the game a dedicated PVP arena with various different PVP modes. max 16 players.

-----------------------------------------

this will give everyone a safe ish, consentual MMO galaxy to play in
pirates can still pirate
traders can trade in safety with minimal losses (and a bit of excitement every now and then)
people can fulfill there destructive aqppetites in the arena
explorers can do their thing no problems
and griefers will be dealt with by the task force.

there would need to be a few adjustments where community goals are concerned though.

Personally I would prefer something which if I am understanding correctly where Eve has different areas of safety (I haven't played it). If the area is deemed safe then anyone doing something naughty has the hand of god come down on them before they can do any real damage.

It goes to unsafe where if you go to that area then you get what you deserve.

Now they need to give players a reason to go to unsafe space and that would be more profitable exercises, i.e. huge trading profit.

This way you can interact in areas and know you will be safe and those who want a full PVP experience (i.e. fighting others) have an area as well (and hopefully many like minded players).

I fell this would be more immersive than what we have now (and realistic for a game about space!!)

Some of the problems with this is the fact the game is peer to peer as oppose to one big server but I think it woulds still work..

 

[fademist]

Personally I would prefer something which if I am understanding correctly where Eve has different areas of safety (I haven't played it). If the area is deemed safe then anyone doing something naughty has the hand of god come down on them before they can do any real damage.

It goes to unsafe where if you go to that area then you get what you deserve.

Now they need to give players a reason to go to unsafe space and that would be more profitable exercises, i.e. huge trading profit.

This way you can interact in areas and know you will be safe and those who want a full PVP experience (i.e. fighting others) have an area as well (and hopefully many like minded players).

I fell this would be more immersive than what we have now (and realistic for a game about space!!)

Some of the problems with this is the fact the game is peer to peer as oppose to one big server but I think it woulds still work..

then will have the same problem like EVE null aka pvpers moan again for ppl go to their space ....;p

 

[WlLL0W]

Personally I would prefer something which if I am understanding correctly where Eve has different areas of safety (I haven't played it). If the area is deemed safe then anyone doing something naughty has the hand of god come down on them before they can do any real damage.

It goes to unsafe where if you go to that area then you get what you deserve.

Now they need to give players a reason to go to unsafe space and that would be more profitable exercises, i.e. huge trading profit.

This way you can interact in areas and know you will be safe and those who want a full PVP experience (i.e. fighting others) have an area as well (and hopefully many like minded players).

I fell this would be more immersive than what we have now (and realistic for a game about space!!)

Some of the problems with this is the fact the game is peer to peer as oppose to one big server but I think it woulds still work..

i see what you're saying but i'm thinking in terms of tweaking this game without affecting it too much,
rather than having to set up a new system

 

[Jockey79]

Like i already said, i expected the p2p to be a temporary solution for the sake of testing and a good launch (cause so many games in the last years had HUGE problems with it, even games with way more money spent on the infrastructure behind them).
If they dont change it, it will not be possible to see more than 10-15 people without problems like high ping, packet loss, lags, rubber banding and all other nice things that belong to p2p networks in realtime applications.
And the only way to get something is to actually ask for it. Nobody gives you something good, specially if they dont even know what you like.

You actually think, by constantly asking - FD will change the network structure this late into development?

As I've never seen/ heard of or read a rumour of any game ever changing it's network solutions once they started coding the game, let alone after the release. If you know of one, please link me the information, as that will provide some fantastic reading.

Credit where credit is due however;

 

[TartanDragon]

If so, why is every tag on steam etc telling us something else?
This game has singleplayer affected by other people and a multiplayer where people can affect your world from 2 different modes and the only thing that you can do, is sit there and enjoy the pain in the bottom area
The idea is fresh and actually not bad, but this, combined with the current game mechanics is killing all the massive interaction that would be possible otherways.
Imagine your CG, a trading one, with 1 taget station and 5k people are active at the prime time. I want to see all of them, this is a part of the multiplayer expirience. Then i can decide what i want to do there.

And i have nothing against baby seals armed with railguns. Still better than empty space.
The normal space out there is pretty empty, but in a game it gets boring pretty fast. I just want the usual world that can be changed with some simple actions. You can outgrind your opponent or simply force him away. You can take control over a system by force, with politics or whatever else - right now its not possible.

I dont play it anymore, just like many still active games. And i wait till it will be what i want. But the point is - there are not so many games to switch to. If i get bored in DayZ, i fire up Rust, H1Z1 or a ton of other survival games.
So far i have to get my adrenaline part flying in Ace Combat: Assault Horizon, and everyone who knows how it works will know what i want.

Rant and rail at me all you want but it will not change what the FDev have made and will continue to make. Weather I agree or disagree with them will also not make a jot of difference.

From what I have read of your posts I get the impression that you are looking for an action/multi-player shoot-em up so that you can draw in viewers to some online channel. To that effect what I have read from FDev from the very beginning of the KS to present day does not point to that type of game, from their replies to the question about modes, the answer has been the same for over two years now, they are staying as they are. We have been told over the same amount of time that the game was to be "instanced" so your hope to see your 5000 at one time was never going to happen.

In fact I have no idea why from your desired aims and all the information out there about this game why you bought it. I can't reply to your why is it show on Steam with those tags, I don't do Steam.

What my quote above means to me is that the devs have got what they want. Players in open, solo and group interacting and adding to the BGS so that others in different modes appear to be part of that BGS. As I said if we choose to play their game we must adapt to it or not.

Oh and not once have I said anything about seal-clubbing, if players wish to go around destroying other players that is their choice, if others wish to avoid that situation that is their choice. Choice is the other thing I believe the devs were after, a bold and somewhat idealist design in today's game market but one they seem to be doing well.

 

[Jockey79]

Personally I would prefer something which if I am understanding correctly where Eve has different areas of safety (I haven't played it). If the area is deemed safe then anyone doing something naughty has the hand of god come down on them before they can do any real damage.

I have played EVE (same name, for 2+ yrs) and I can safely say - that didn't work out so well.

PvPers whine that "carebears" won't go out to their space (again, people wanting baby seals to club) and when they get fed up of being ignored, they equip disposable ships and suicide gank players in "safe space".

Back when I played, it was possible to outrun CONCORD (aka hand of God, the Police service) and get away. I'm told this was fixed, hence now they just fit out cheap ships and kill low level players with ease, then respawn, fit another ship and go again.

People like that were either connected to BOB or.....

/drum roll......

GOONS !!!

 

[Fire70]

then will have the same problem like EVE null aka pvpers moan again for ppl go to their space ....;p

Do they? lol so sounds a bit like here then. I suppose players would go to unsafe space for the potential rewards.

Say for example a rare good which results in a huge profit. I could see a trader looking for support so asking to set up a wing with some Vultures or FDL's and setting off. The wing protects the trader while in unsafe space and they all share in the profits when they return.

This is the sort of immersive type of thing I would be interested in. Hopefully we would bump into any pirates and I am bad@pvp though. (see earlier post).

i see what you're saying but i'm thinking in terms of tweaking this game without affecting it too much,
rather than having to set up a new system

Yer fair enough, it was that I didn't like your idea but I have always wondered why FD didn't set something up similar. I know EVE isn't too popular here but it must have some good ideas as it has been around for a while.

- - - Updated - - -

I have played EVE (same name, for 2+ yrs) and I can safely say - that didn't work out so well.

PvPers whine that "carebears" won't go out to their space (again, people wanting baby seals to club) and when they get fed up of being ignored, they equip disposable ships and suicide gank players in "safe space".

Back when I played, it was possible to outrun CONCORD (aka hand of God, the Police service) and get away. I'm told this was fixed, hence now they just fit out cheap ships and kill low level players with ease, then respawn, fit another ship and go again.

People like that were either connected to BOB or.....

/drum roll......

GOONS !!!

I suppose nothing is perfect but when I talk about interaction I mean players working together to achieve a goal and I though this could be a way..

 

[Roybe]

If so, why is every tag on steam etc telling us something else?
This game has singleplayer affected by other people and a multiplayer where people can affect your world from 2 different modes and the only thing that you can do, is sit there and enjoy the pain in the bottom area
The idea is fresh and actually not bad, but this, combined with the current game mechanics is killing all the massive interaction that would be possible otherways.
Imagine your CG, a trading one, with 1 taget station and 5k people are active at the prime time. I want to see all of them, this is a part of the multiplayer expirience. Then i can decide what i want to do there.

Many have...and then, when they realize that it can never happen...meh!

Even SC will never have 5k players doing something together!