Priority choices of ED development

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

And I am genuinely shocked.

You've been defending FDev to the hilt over the past few weeks Pecisk. That's fair enough - if you feel things are going well that's the right thing to do. But... wow. Even the most steadfast and forgiven of FDev fans are somewhat taken aback at developments it seems.

I enjoy 1.3, it fixed so many things. I am thankful.

But I am getting tired of not knowing and lacking clarity about direction we move on in next months of this year.

 

[Avago Earo]

Growth management is indeed a serious and difficult challenge. Lots of design features originally intended will be eliminated, and others, new ones, will also possibly make it in. That is the essence of the risk involved in a crowdfunded project, and we need to embrace it.

The question is, are you actually having fun with the game as it is and as it is evolving, all things considered?

No. I install the updates and then... nah. I joined at Pemium Beta last May and played it a lot looking forward to the 'vision' described in the 'Dev Diaries' on Frontier's YouTube page. When it was released in December I thought, 'It's not ready' and I think I was right. Since then I reckon I've played 20 hours max. I just can't be done with rinse and repeat.

I will be playing later though as I've rigged up my Nexus 7 with Trinus Gyre and will see how it is now I've got my make shift VR working. It's a shame if that's [VR] what it takes though, after all, remember the crap films people bought from the supermarket when Blu Ray was a new thing just because they were the only ones you could get on that format? Wow the quality... Still an awful film though!

 

[rootsrat]

I don't understand the decision making at Frontier in the slightest. Remember way back a lovely pilot called Isonona posted an amazing video of docking with FAoff at high speed to smuggle goods into a space station. It was epic and inspired loads of people to try the same thing (I myself recreated it perfectly...right up until I smashed into the space station!). The video was created when we didn't have the "bleed off" of speed in the FA off mode. What did Frontier do with this video? They put it in the newsletter, brilliant advertising, exciting gameplay and it really got peoples attention. Then Frontier nerfed the FAoff, introduced the speed bleed off and now we have speed limits at the docking slot. They took a beautiful piece of gameplay and tossed it in the bin. I couldn't for the life of me understand the decision making behind that at all.

The speed limit was introduced to combat players practising ship ramming at the stations. The limitation doesn't stop you in the slightest of doing "Isinona entry" again, does it though? It does not actually limit your speed, it fines you for hitting another ship while over the limit.

So in this case I'd say they've actually added more flavour to this particular part of the game. Now you also need to watch for other ships when trying to hit the letterbox at the same time

 

[xyphic]

I don't understand the decision making at Frontier in the slightest. Remember way back a lovely pilot called Isonona posted an amazing video of docking with FAoff at high speed to smuggle goods into a space station. It was epic and inspired loads of people to try the same thing (I myself recreated it perfectly...right up until I smashed into the space station!). The video was created when we didn't have the "bleed off" of speed in the FA off mode. What did Frontier do with this video? They put it in the newsletter, brilliant advertising, exciting gameplay and it really got peoples attention. Then Frontier nerfed the FAoff, introduced the speed bleed off and now we have speed limits at the docking slot. They took a beautiful piece of gameplay and tossed it in the bin. I couldn't for the life of me understand the decision making behind that at all.

You can still do that, excluding the bleed-off. The speed limit isn't a speed limit; you can still dock as fast as you like, just that if you crash into another ship you'll be liable for fines or bounty depending on the level of damage. The bleed-off was introduced to remove an exploit that allowed players to retain their boost speed indefinitely, which was never the intent.

 

[Erimus Kamzel]

I don't understand the decision making at Frontier in the slightest. Remember way back a lovely pilot called Isonona posted an amazing video of docking with FAoff at high speed to smuggle goods into a space station. It was epic and inspired loads of people to try the same thing (I myself recreated it perfectly...right up until I smashed into the space station!). The video was created when we didn't have the "bleed off" of speed in the FA off mode. What did Frontier do with this video? They put it in the newsletter, brilliant advertising, exciting gameplay and it really got peoples attention. Then Frontier nerfed the FAoff, introduced the speed bleed off and now we have speed limits at the docking slot. They took a beautiful piece of gameplay and tossed it in the bin. I couldn't for the life of me understand the decision making behind that at all.

Yeah, its almost as if the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing at times.

I think it was Mike Evans who once mentioned decision making isn't a democracy at FD. I'd like to know who has the final say. At this moment in time I find it hard to believe its David Braben.

 

[Philip Coutts]

You can still do that, excluding the bleed-off. The speed limit isn't a speed limit; you can still dock as fast as you like, just that if you crash into another ship you'll be liable for fines or bounty depending on the level of damage. The bleed-off was introduced to remove an exploit that allowed players to retain their boost speed indefinitely, which was never the intent.

Not really though, Isonona lined up KM's away from the station hit boost, FAoff and then used thrusters to line himself up whilst managing his heat build up. You really can't do this anymore because the heat mechanics also got nerfed! Add the heat mechanic to the FAoff bleed and it doesn't work.

 

[B33 ENN]

...The bleed-off was introduced to remove an exploit that allowed players to retain their boost speed indefinitely, which was never the intent.

...You really can't do this anymore because the heat mechanics also got nerfed! Add the heat mechanic to the FAoff bleed and it doesn't work.

Interesting. I always wondered about why there is this drag effect on a spaceship which should be able to maintain its velocity. Shame, very arcade game design, particularly for F/A OFF mode. (Off topic so I won't say anymore on that.)

 

[Titus Balls]

Ironically this is the sort of answer I was looking for in my own thread. People seemed to assume I was after Frontier's blood, whereas I was actually looking for solutions. It's easy to blame angry people but with it being so consistent and I've noticed even a lot of the die hard fans getting upset over time. We all know FD have made a couple of really big blunders PR-wise over the last couple of years.

I'm still not sure what the right way is, I do know Stardock has a decent rapport with it's playerbase and they're a small company as well.

I feel the same - there is a crowd here that cannot and do not allow critical views of Frontier, when that's exactly what it needed. Very few of us I suspect really want Frontier of the game to fail (except for those that threatened to sue them over offlinegate). Certainly for me and I believe yourself too, nothing I am saying here is to attack anyone at the company or the game, but my frustrations do come through and I can understand why they are perceived as that.

Disclaimer: As well as a PB backer, I am also a shareholder.

 

[rootsrat]

Not really though, Isonona lined up KM's away from the station hit boost, FAoff and then used thrusters to line himself up whilst managing his heat build up. You really can't do this anymore because the heat mechanics also got nerfed! Add the heat mechanic to the FAoff bleed and it doesn't work.

The only difference is that you'll be going a tad slower, no?

 

[AnnuverScotinExile]

DB hated the idea of a subscription model and so did what seems to have been a majority of the backers.

The problem with that though is that revenue is needed to continue development.

It is. And the further problem is that if there is a subscription model, then I'm not going to subscribe until what I see is 'good enough'. Now, my 'good enough' and your 'good enough' will be different, of course. But at the moment the game is NOT 'good enough' for me to be paying a subscription. If all I wanted was Elite with prettier graphics, I would go back to playing Oolite: which is free. So, would there have been enough people willing to subscribe to keep the lights on? I suspect FD would have had to have sunk more money into the game than they have so far to get up to a self-fulfilling critical mass.

 

[Titus Balls]

Yeah, its almost as if the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing at times.

I think it was Mike Evans who once mentioned decision making isn't a democracy at FD. I'd like to know who has the final say. At this moment in time I find it hard to believe its David Braben.

Yes and that person, quite rightly, is more focused on the bottom line than the game. However the perception I think is they don't have the balance right and it's TOO MUCH to one side and pee'ing paying customers off (and advocates who bring in more customer). They need to return to a better balance - or their going to find that having no customers is the ultimate end and it doesn't matter anymore.

I'm hoping to see more from the community site, we need more information on what the future holds - not all the secrets, but enough to know were not wasting out time.

 

[xyphic]

Interesting. I always wondered about why there is this drag effect on a spaceship which should be able to maintain its velocity. Shame, very arcade game design, particularly for F/A OFF mode. (Off topic so I won't say anymore on that.)

ED takes liberties for gameplay when it comes to its flight model. Always has, always will. When the FA-Off/boost exploit became known it basically meant that people with fast enough ships could boost, turn FA off and not be caught. Removing the exploit was absolutely the right thing to do for the game. As Philip Coutts points out, changing the heat mechanic might have nerfed the Isinona manoeuvre, but it wasn't the FA off exploit fix that did it.

 

[Rubbernuke]

So will there be any other announcements re ED in E3 now?

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

It is. And the further problem is that if there is a subscription model, then I'm not going to subscribe until what I see is 'good enough'. Now, my 'good enough' and your 'good enough' will be different, of course. But at the moment the game is NOT 'good enough' for me to be paying a subscription. If all I wanted was Elite with prettier graphics, I would go back to playing Oolite: which is free. So, would there have been enough people willing to subscribe to keep the lights on? I suspect FD would have had to have sunk more money into the game than they have so far to get up to a self-fulfilling critical mass.

...and thus it would be impossible to do so.

Reality sucks. ED is still awesome game, and yes, I hope and believe lot of DDF elements (not all of them, mind you) will come to game. Yes, there are things should have done differently, and there are things they *need* to improve. However, I believe way they do it - if they keep adding things from DDF - is right one.

Anyway, reality calls. I guess I am out for today. Fly safe.

- - - Updated - - -

So will there be any other announcements re ED in E3 now?

Doubt that. David's post indicate news post E3. I will be happy surprised that they will drop some ED news during Coaster presser.

 

[B33 ENN]

...So, would there have been enough people willing to subscribe to keep the lights on?

I think actually yes. The loyalty of fans of the IP and David Braben is what got this project off the ground, with many of them spending a lot on the KS and Alph/Beta version, as well as the merchandise store. Had Frontier put the idea forward to the community and honestly said this could be a better way to make the DDA/F version they wanted, I think they'd have got it. Let's not forget, most of these people are older and can afford a small regular monthly expense for something they love as much as I've seen this community loves Elite.

 

[Luponator]

The speed limit was introduced to combat players practising ship ramming at the stations. The limitation doesn't stop you in the slightest of doing "Isinona entry" again, does it though? It does not actually limit your speed, it fines you for hitting another ship while over the limit.

So in this case I'd say they've actually added more flavour to this particular part of the game. Now you also need to watch for other ships when trying to hit the letterbox at the same time

With all due respect, that's not what the reply was about. The comment stated that 'The video was created when we didn't have the "bleed off" of speed in the FA off mode. What did Frontier do with this video? They put it in the newsletter, brilliant advertising, exciting gameplay and it really got peoples attention. Then Frontier nerfed the FAoff, introduced the speed bleed off and now we have speed limits at the docking slot. They took a beautiful piece of gameplay and tossed it in the bin.'
Adding of a speed limit doesn't in any way shape or form compensate for the things the poster considered being removed, nerfed, or otherwise made less appealing.

Yes I'm arguing semantics and nitpicking on details. But a game that can't even get the basics of repair costs straight between a set of updates apparently desires extreme attention to detail, in a negative way.

- - - Updated - - -

It is. And the further problem is that if there is a subscription model, then I'm not going to subscribe until what I see is 'good enough'. Now, my 'good enough' and your 'good enough' will be different, of course. But at the moment the game is NOT 'good enough' for me to be paying a subscription. If all I wanted was Elite with prettier graphics, I would go back to playing Oolite: which is free. So, would there have been enough people willing to subscribe to keep the lights on? I suspect FD would have had to have sunk more money into the game than they have so far to get up to a self-fulfilling critical mass.

Funny enough, this is one of the arguments I remember having posted on the forum in December- that without a steady revenue stream depending on player satisfaction, ie. a subscription-model, the game decision making process will gear towards what's most sensible to sell new copies instead of keeping sold copy owner happy. It's just logical. I guess as a player base we can't have the cake and eat it.

And OOlite could teach E a thing or two.

 

[rootsrat]

With all due respect, that's not what the reply was about. The comment stated that 'The video was created when we didn't have the "bleed off" of speed in the FA off mode. What did Frontier do with this video? They put it in the newsletter, brilliant advertising, exciting gameplay and it really got peoples attention. Then Frontier nerfed the FAoff, introduced the speed bleed off and now we have speed limits at the docking slot. They took a beautiful piece of gameplay and tossed it in the bin.'
Adding of a speed limit doesn't in any way shape or form compensate for the things the poster considered being removed, nerfed, or otherwise made less appealing.

Yes I'm arguing semantics and nitpicking on details. But a game that can't even get the basics of repair costs straight between a set of updates apparently desires extreme attention to detail, in a negative way.

It's very subjective though and what is a nerf to some may be an improvement to others.

I do agree about attention to details though.

 

[Luponator]

It's very subjective though and what is a nerf to some may be an improvement to others.

I do agree about attention to details though.

Fair point, let's leave it at that. I guess there's bigger fish to discuss, eh, fry at the moment than the FA off mechanics of speed retention.

 

[Lucifer Hate]

I think actually yes. The loyalty of fans of the IP and David Braben is what got this project off the ground, with many of them spending a lot on the KS and Alph/Beta version, as well as the merchandise store. Had Frontier put the idea forward to the community and honestly said this could be a better way to make the DDA/F version they wanted, I think they'd have got it. Let's not forget, most of these people are older and can afford a small regular monthly expense for something they love as much as I've seen this community loves Elite.

I would have to disagree. I think to many have lost faith in this and going subscription now would be the stake through the heart of Elite. There are alot just playing it now till SC comes out and if it delivers the way the videos appear it will this game will be a ghost town for the most part. That would be a shame too as there was so much potential here. I think FD has burned to many bridges of trust at this point

 

[B33 ENN]

ED takes liberties for gameplay when it comes to its flight model. Always has, always will. When the FA-Off/boost exploit became known it basically meant that people with fast enough ships could boost, turn FA off and not be caught. Removing the exploit was absolutely the right thing to do for the game...

Fair enough, I mean I know the original game was no accurate space flight model either. It just bugs me because it's one of the most noticeable differences about being in a spacecraft versus an aircraft.

- - - Updated - - -

I would have to disagree. I think to many have lost faith in this and going subscription now would be the stake through the heart of Elite...

I agree, now wouldn't work. My reply was a reference to the early development phase period.