Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread - Part the Second [Now With Added Platforms].

[relayer]

@koma

This is what I also don't get. The assumption here (and other threads) is that all solo/group/xbone players will be fighting against you, hindering you, unfairly gaining advantage over you.

What the...?!? The odds are that just as many players on those modes will be working for your selected power as they will be being against you. Why does it always come down to "solo players are cheats because they are invisible and all working against me (and my Power)". It's neither logical nor evidential. It does smack of a wee bit of paranoia; the same paranoia we solo players get pinned to every time.

Stop being so frightened of invisible people. You have just as many chances as they have of someone working for or against your chosen Power. That's why you read Galnet, the Forums and the specific CG information. Everone has access to the same information in any of the modes.

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

It's not an oversight. Giving PvP any sort of bonus would be a slap in the face of Solo players who would not get it.

You can PvP for role-play (pirate/ defenders of a power/ bounty hunter), you can PvP for kicks (challenge yourself against others or spar for fun), you can PvP just to annoy people (mindless murder) - there is always a reason and a point to PvP.
You keep on you're a "pirate", so there is your reason for using your guns on another player. You have a "point" when you PvP.

I'm not talking about a bonus, im talking about as much as an NPC.

 

[SteveLaw]

Trading in Solo isn't wrong. Hunting Solo in RES isn't wrong. These effect no one so I think it is ok. BUT opposing and undermining my Power in Solo you are attacking my base, don't u think something wrong here?

According to the rules of Power Play you cancel an Undermine by Fortifying. It is irrelevant which mode you are in. If you successfully Fortify the system it cannot be Undermined.

 

[Robert Maynard]

As for the second thing, if it's a bug, it should be fixed, if it's intended, it should be fixed. It makes pvp pointless which isn't a good thing, at least imo.

The PvP would not be pointless, it would just be unrewarded - if there is a reason to engage in it then players will engage in it for that reason. A reward is simply an encouragement to do something.

 

[Araviel]

The PvP would not be pointless, it would just be unrewarded - if there is a reason to engage in it then players will engage in it for that reason. A reward is simply an encouragement to do something.

edit nm,,, im saying stuff whitout head attached again.

 

[relayer]

Open play= hard and risky. Solo=ez lyfe ez money... But the devs don't seem to see this, EVER. <snip>

" Yay a MMO i can do everything I want in it yes!

Second point first: ED was not marketed as an MMO. I don't understand players who didn't research this game and bought it. The reasons are strewn across the length of this & the previous megathread.


First point: "Solo=ez lyfe ez money" seems to be the position held by many open players. But that rationale comes from a combat perspective. Many of us like the exploring, mapping & yes, trade as a relaxing game. This has nothing to do with undermining a Power and nothing to do with undermining combat-oriented players or CG goals. My particular path is to visit many famous stellar bodies and stars & places famous in science fiction. Nothing combative about it.


Thankfully, FD realized people would play variously-different games in this beautifully-rendered galaxy and made mode switching the core of gameplay.

I'm not working for or against you. I don't even really want to see you. And please don't tell me I'm playing wrong.

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

if there is a reason to engage in it then players will engage in it for that reason.

Is that a bad thing? We are already encouraged in other areas, why not this one? You can collect player bounties and cargo, why are merits for undermining suddenly where fd draws the line?

 

[TheSpaceTexan]

The PvP would not be pointless, it would just be unrewarded - if there is a reason to engage in it then players will engage in it for that reason. A reward is simply an encouragement to do something.

There's a delicate balance that needs to be done for this. Let's hope it goes well.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Is that a bad thing? We are already encouraged in other areas, why not this one? You can collect player bounties and cargo, why are merits for undermining suddenly where fd draws the line?

If would depend very much on whether Frontier want to specifically reward PvP as part of Powerplay.

If it encouraged too much then we simply get back into the rut of taking out the hollow markers first in preference over other, possibly more rational, targets.

We will see if it is changed, or not, as the case may be.

 

[Robert Maynard]

There's a delicate balance that needs to be done for this. Let's hope it goes well.

Indeed - for everyone involved.

 

[TheSpaceTexan]

If would depend very much on whether Frontier want to specifically reward PvP as part of Powerplay.

If it encouraged too much then we simply get back into the rut of taking out the hollow markers first in preference over other, possibly more rational, targets.

We will see if it is changed, or not, as the case may be.

Isn't it more a case of diversity and what compliments it gives to certain play-styles for Power Play? After all, the biggest complaint is that it feels like a weekly CG more than anything, and its vocal throughout the modes. Alongside its poor rewards.

The PVP element is just one of the issues about it. It doesn't necessarily cover it entirely. I think the bigger issue is that it lacks diversity and doesn't reward certain playstyles efficiently, like certain elements to power play are suited to be done in other modes, because of either difficulty or annoyance.

 

[Cmdr Cunomaglus]

If you enjoy playing in open for the risk, the thrill, the interaction, the whatever it is you get out of it, that enjoyment is your reward for doing it and to expect greater reward than is available to group or solo players for your 'bravery' smacks of entitlement.

Is that a bad thing? We are already encouraged in other areas, why not this one? You can collect player bounties and cargo, why are merits for undermining suddenly where fd draws the line?

I quite agree that killing players for your faction should return the same reward as killing NPCs for your faction, but that's as far as it should go; frankly though, that's a powerplay issue, not a solo / group vs open issue.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Isn't it more a case of diversity and what compliments it gives to certain play-styles for Power Play? After all, the biggest complaint is that it feels like a weekly CG more than anything, and its vocal throughout the modes. Alongside its poor rewards.

The PVP element is just one of the issues about it. It doesn't necessarily cover it entirely.

Whether PvP in Powerplay is rewarded or not does not change diversity - it just changes motivation of some of the participants.

Given the nature of the tasks of Powerplay, it does seem to be a grand, perpetual, weekly periodic, CG with systems as prizes for the successful Powers.

 

[TheSpaceTexan]

Whether PvP in Powerplay is rewarded or not does not change diversity - it just changes motivation of some of the participants.

Given the nature of the tasks of Powerplay, it does seem to be a grand, perpetual, weekly periodic, CG with systems as prizes for the successful Powers.

Well, that's just the competitive nature to it, I was a bit confused as to why they wouldn't encourage it more. It only seems natural, but hey, let's see. I have a feeling that the Bounty Hunter fiasco, may have contributed to why it is as it is.

But the PVP element is a semi-important bit of it should be another alternative in my opinion, to the grinding. Grinding merits isn't fun and it's always fun to have options, PVP is one of the many I can potentially list.

 

[relayer]

I've long thought that open should offer enhanced rewards to counterbalance it's far greater risk.

This point comes up over and over. The risk of open play is the reward. Risky types (including pvpers) will often take the harder route because it's satisfying for them. But you can't penalize solo/group players because they play a different game than you. You're asking for "xtra-speshul rewardz" because of a mode you chose to play.

 

[Jockey79]

Second point first: ED was not marketed as an MMO. I don't understand players who didn't research this game and bought it. The reasons are strewn across the length of this & the previous megathread.

Alas, it has been sold as an MMO since launch. The term popped up on the ED website, then after some arguments over it in the first mega - it was removed for a few days, then put back.
It is also listed as an MMO on Steam.

While my personal belief is, ED is not an "MMO". Under the technical definition it does meet the criteria (as shown in my large wall of information).
A lot of the confusion over the game would be sold (in my opinion) if that tag/term was removed from the game.

I'm not talking about a bonus, im talking about as much as an NPC.

Sorry, I didn't explain myself right.

First off, for the record (I did state this before, but I'm not sure how close you are following the thread), I actually did think PCs counted the 15 merits towards Power Play. I found out otherwise in the thread.
I also didn't have a problem with that, still don't really.

However, apart from what could be a clear abuse of it (have a friend in an enemy faction meet up with you, to kill them over and over to pad out your merits), it could also be seen as a bonus payment to PvPers.
Statements for example: "if they we not encouraging PvP, why pay people merits for it" and such like stances would flood the thread.
So by not "encouraging" PvP as a way to earn merits and leaving it for the reasons I listed before - PvP is still meaningful for those involved if they want it to be.

Now, in principle I'm quite happy for PCs to count as NPCs for the sake of PP rewards.
But after seeing how people already used PP to push the non-consensual PvP agenda and removing the modes, I'm leaning more towards leaving the system as it so it can not be used as an arguing point to mess with the core game mechanics.

 

[relayer]

Quick pre read material to get you up to speed (this is on page 1, post 3 for reference);

rep+1 awesome info post with much chewy!

 

[Mouse]

Sorry, but the main argument from Solo players, saying they don't want to interact with other players ever, is quite ironic considering that many of them post quite a bit on these forums. Hey, if you don't ever want to interact with others, then you'd better not ever go outside, ever go the the store, or ever get a job. Guess what? They are PEOPLE there that will try to interact with you regardless of if you want to return the favor. Also, there is a small risk you might be robbed too, or someone might rear end your car while driving. Does this stop any sane person from leaving their house? No, of course not. If your answer is yes, then go please seek a psychiatrist, because that's not normal and you need help ASAP. Before someone tries to make the silly real life != game argument, this is a SIM, and I want it to play that way.


A game that allows players to play in essentially the same server but allows then not interact with one another is not an MMO, period. If you are able to play the game without interacting with others players ever, you are not playing a multiplayer game, period. You want to play in Solo mode to learn how to play the game, or try certain things without the risk of doing it in 'live'? Fine, but any achievements/money/ships you obtain should not carry over to 'live.' The fact that the game is the way it is now due to this whole catering to everybody mentality is what is keeping most good games these days from becoming great games, and this is one of those situations.



Normally, I always play in Open mode. But recently I wanted to try trading, and that's when I learned the ridiculousness that is Solo mode since I could trade with less risk in Solo mode (and hence gain more money). So that's what I did, so I could gain as much money as possible to buy the ship I wanted without interruption (pirate NPCs are a slight annoyance, nothing more). But I wish I didn't have that choice, because it made the game more dull and uninteresting. Yes, I could have done this in Open mode and not have ever been attacked by another player, but the small chance was there and that makes the game more exciting. People will always go with the path of least resistance if given the opportunity. Why would anyone study hard for a test if everyone was guaranteed an A? That is an extreme example, but the point still stands. Maybe the risk in Open mode is only slightly more than in Solo mode. Doesn't matter what the metric is, just that fact that one has less risk is all that matters.



But the worst reason for these modes is it splits the community up further in the game. It's bad enough that this "MMO" is instanced, because that splits up the player base. But now you want to split it further into those who want to play Solo and those that don't? If you are a trader, you would have to be an idiot to play in Open, because it adds risk with no real benefit. This now ensures that being a pirate is no longer a realistic option as a player that wants to play a multiplayer game. This in turn makes it no longer a realistic option for someone who wants to be a bounty hunter in a multiplayer game. This in turn makes this supposedly multiplayer game into a game where each player is playing solo among other solo players. This kills the game.

That is as ridiculous a line of reasoning as an extrovert telling an introvert they are just that way because they don't go outside much. (I have heard that actually said before). Who are you to tell someone they need a psychiatrist because they do not like to go out and socialize with people or because they fear things happening? How do you know if people who have been dealing with issues and DO see psychiatrists to help them play the game. There are people in the world who fear leaving their house because of violence that is near them, to you they are not right in the head, who in the world do you think you are? What magical unicorn bathed you in the brilliance of it's rainbow fart to decide the proper mental status of people and how they want to play a GAME?


And in game, there are people who PLAY THE WAY THEY WANT TO PLAY IT. SOLO/PRIVATE/OPEN Of all the crap said on this thread, YOUR comment about solo players is about the one thing that has really been out of line and offensive.


You want to know about me...I AM one of those who see a therapist. I can't play COD, Modern Warfare, Battlefield or any of these modern combat first person shooters. You want to know why? Because EVERY TIME a teammate dies, in my head I re live escorting coffins out of aircraft, then folding the flags draped over those coffins and burying people I know with full military honors. I've been playing online games since they first came out. I played in the original Ultima Online and the PK horrors, I dealt with EVE and the gank squads, I dealt with PVP advocates in many games and I'm sick and tired of the arrogant little PVP jerks like you who think your way of playing is how everyone should play. Solo players do not advocate that Open players be forced to play solo, Private group players do not advocate that Open players be forced to play in Private group. ONLY some open players seem to feel they have the bloody right to advocate forcing others to play THEIR way. YOU SIR are the problem here, NOT the modes of play in Elite Dangerous, NOT the Solo players, NOT the Private Group players, NOT most of the Open players, and NOT most of the PVPers.

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

However, apart from what could be a clear abuse of it (have a friend in an enemy faction meet up with you, to kill them over and over to pad out your merits), it could also be seen as a bonus payment to PvPers.

I don't see how even with two or more working together, it would match if those people just played legally and killed npcs instead. It's pretty easy to undermine, and if you're in solo, all the npcs are yours to kill. You'll always have a constant supply for yourself.

But if that really is the issue, there are pretty easy ways to balance it. it could be balanced around ship size, 1 for a sidewinder, 15 for an anaconda, which tbh is what they should have done to begin with, for both npc and cmdr. If a player wants to lose dozens of condas and waste all that money, he's welcome to do so. If he's using free sidewinders, it will be a lot less than possible just killing npcs.

It could also be 10-20% of the merits the cmdr is carrying on him for combat expansion or however much cargo is being carried npc or cmdr for trade expansion. It wouldn't be open to abuse in those cases.

 

[Dave1235]

Right, lets add some source martial on the current info;

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2015/...-e3-xbox-exclusives-and-qa-with-david-braben/

<Snip>

I owe you an apology Jockey, I should not have posted the following:

You have no heart Jockey, I only just read this one https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=8368&page=268

Oh well, early night for me then.

I naively thought that you posting dev quotes that were only hours old, that reiterated previous dev quotes might harm this thread, glad to be proven wrong.