Lessons in anti griefing.

[aws357]

We are pilots in a cut throat galaxy full of consequence.

*lift carpet corner looking for consequences*

 

[bitstorm]

CCP included some very expensive implants to adorn and improve your pilot. These vanish upon death. It doesn't matter what ship you fly, if you spent enough on implants its not worth dying over to clear a bounty, and the system is surprisingly effective at stopping bounty exploiting. A 10M bounty isn't worth loosing 20M in implants kind of thing. This makes the criminals persistent and keeps them out of civilized space. Elite doesn't need implants, but this idea could be adopted and *something* could be done that would simulate the effect.

I really like this, "something you lose upon death" idea. In a way it's already in the game for traders, but people pursuing combat have no such penalty.

 

[Julissa Silver]

Do you feel ED is going to be like SAO? There's a reason SAO exists only in an anime - because it can't exist as a game, not to that effect, not with today's gamers, and not with today's resources.

I have literally no idea what SAO is, other than a misspelled moon orbiting Neptune. Without that, I feel like I'm missing some important reference to your post, because it doesn't seem to make much of a point I'm afraid.


You continue to assert that you know who the target audience is - on this we have to fundamentally disagree. I don't think FD even has a narrow target audience as you are implying. That they support multiple avenues and methods to play rather makes the idea of an always-open, always-anarchy free for all as you appear to claim break down. I'd also really love to know exactly what I've written that even reference "match three" or "block building" elements, or somehow turning the game into an "everybody wins" theme park. Please don't tangentally assume I want to somehow fundamentally change what Elite already is.

Elite is, by absolute definition, a very broad game because there are dozens of different ways to play it. We all fly about, we all sit inside of our ships, but those ships and the things we can do with them are immensely different in theme. Trade (which has it's subset of motive and goal), exploration (which has it's own self-defined goals), PvP (with multiple methods and self-imposed rules), power play (which arguably is a motive rather than a game style) or PvE (and there's plenty of ways to do that, too). There's nothing wrong with any of those options, but absolutely nowhere should it ever be required that one player should sacrifice his fun for the entertainment of another without having given informed consent, and all of these can exist -without- forcing players into things they don't want to do.

 

[Parmo]

Griefers can be so much fun though.

Griefer: "Oi! You! Am gonna pew-pew u 4eva coz I is best anniwanz u 2 f34r me! I sh00tu 4 de lulz!"

Network guy: <click>

Griefer: "Oi u scummy wombat cogger! u d33dnt let m3 k33lz u 4 lulz - gonna r33purt u 4 cheetz!"

Network guy: <lulz>

Griefer: "Oi! You! Am gonna pew-pew u 4eva coz I is best anniwanz u 2 f34r me! I sh00tu 4 de lulz!"

Me: "F7 off!"

 

[Psycho Romeo]

It's unfortunate that you don't recognize the SAO reference. If you have the intestinal fortitude, it's an excellent game design thought experiment. I found it painful.
[opinion]

That they support multiple avenues and methods to play rather makes the idea of an always-open, always-anarchy free for all as you appear to claim break down.

I'm not sure why you feel I'm appearing to claim this. Was it the smash a cobra against the station comment?

I'd also really love to know exactly what I've written that even reference "match three" or "block building" elements, or somehow turning the game into an "everybody wins" theme park. Please don't tangentally assume I want to somehow fundamentally change what Elite already is.

I haven't made any comment to you having referenced these things. I brought up the reference on my own, to illustrate elements that would not be aligned to EDs mission and audience (another point I brought up on my own). Please don't tangentally assume I'm tangentally assuming things.

Elite is, by absolute definition, a very broad game because there are dozens of different ways to play it. We all fly about, we all sit inside of our ships, but those ships and the things we can do with them are immensely different in theme. Trade (which has it's subset of motive and goal), exploration (which has it's own self-defined goals), PvP (with multiple methods and self-imposed rules), power play (which arguably is a motive rather than a game style) or PvE (and there's plenty of ways to do that, too). There's nothing wrong with any of those options, but absolutely nowhere should it ever be required that one player should sacrifice his fun for the entertainment of another without having given informed consent, and all of these can exist -without- forcing players into things they don't want to do.

These kind of comments make my stomach turn. You are not entitled to have exclusively positive experiences. This is not your right to have.

You opened up ED, a multiplayer game. There are other players. They can interact with you however they please. You gave your consent to let someone else have fun at your expense with the first sentence of this paragraph.

Nobody forces you to do something you DON'T want to do. But you absolutely have to understand that to be able to do some of the things that you DO want to do, you must be willing to accept the risks involved. It's a package deal, you absolutely cannot and should not get the good without the bad. You may want to take that vulture for a spin, but you must be willing to accept the risk of getting destroyed. You may want to fill up with high value commodities and take bare minimum defenses, but you must be willing to accept the financial risk of losing it all. Anyone involved in the UO community as anything greater than a bikini mascot has a very clear understanding of this, I'm sure I don't need to preach this to you.

If the game was not meant to be a cut throat galaxy full of consequence and other pilots, there would not be cut throat mechanics, consequence, and other pilots in it. Anyone who wants to play in may! But you get the whole deal, not just the enjoyable parts (exception: other players). There is no reason short of cheating or exploit abuse for anyone to claim someone else robbed them of their fun. What happens with their fun is not their decision to make - it's the game's. And the game's inderdiction mechanic says "Go for it random noob murderer, enjoy the game!".

We are pilots in a cut throat galaxy full of consequence and other players. These aspects are global - it doesn't matter what's available for other player types to enjoy, there is no escaping this (exception: other players). These global aspects scream "I AM A PRETTY INTENSE GAME". Not "everyone can come and have fun". You certainly can try, and you may succeed sometimes, but other times you will have your ass handed to you. Welcome to ED.
[/opinion]

 

[micky1984]

i dissagree players are mistaking legitimate game play as griefing you require no reason nor are you required to give a reason to attack anyone in open its a do as you will game aslong as the JUSTICE system is robust all will be fine i think that FD should define what is Greifing and what isnt so people can have a reference point

 

[Jockey79]

CCP made a remarkable game some years back, and they learned many things about the players and how to make a good game. Some would say its not, but face it, it is featured in the Museum of Modern Art and made the cover of a few prestigious periodicals more than once. We can say it is a remarkable game and leave it there. I'm not saying they got everything right for every player, lord knows as many didn't play as did, but the important thing is to find wisdom.
In CCP's game you have players killing other players. That can end badly, I'm sure some people take it very hard and get upset, which is never something that motivates a player to play. You don't sit down and say 'I think I'll play because I want to be upset'. You play to have fun, and that can be difficult when others want to have fun by killing you. Huge mess. In response to this CCP did two important things; They created Concord, a ruthless police force, who guarantees destruction of lawbreakers in Secure space. This doesn't mean they stop bad guys from doing bad things, but after the crime has been committed they appear and the transgressor is promptly vaporized. This means most of the PVP in secure space is voluntary, mutual or sanctioned allowing players freedom from most griefing. It doesn't stop suicidal maniacs, but then what does?
Elite could use some 'secure' spaces with similar 'security'. This should definitely extend to starter areas.
The second thing CCP did is introduce a bounty system and implants. A bounty is no big deal if you can grab a cheap ship and loose it, so CCP included some very expensive implants to adorn and improve your pilot. These vanish upon death. It doesn't matter what ship you fly, if you spent enough on implants its not worth dying over to clear a bounty, and the system is surprisingly effective at stopping bounty exploiting. A 10M bounty isn't worth loosing 20M in implants kind of thing. This makes the criminals persistent and keeps them out of civilized space. Elite doesn't need implants, but this idea could be adopted and *something* could be done that would simulate the effect.
There is plenty that can be learned from other games. When the problems are a blanket problem, like griefing, its good to borrow solutions and find ways to fit them in. These are not 'new' problems to any game, but the solutions CCP discovered fit very well into sci-fi and I think Elite Dangerous would benefit from similar mechanics. At best we may see less QQ shot me threads.

FD answer - swap to another mode of play and carry your enjoyment of ED without griefers.

Requires no time or effort.
No extra programming
No balance checks needed

Also, Concord is not infallible. Seen people tank or out run it in the 2 years I played.
EVE is a bad benchmark, as it is a fundamentally different game to ED and thus pointless to compare to.

It kind of like me saying Stay Bright is better than Microsoft, so Microsoft should learn how to make Windows from their years of experience.
2 Different types of "Windows".

Just like EVE and ED are set in space, they are different types of space games.

 

[Ghostickles]

1. Museum of modern art WOW.
2, Prestigious periodicals? name them and let us judge if we should 'leave it there'
3. Define griefing. Wisdom? I am laughing now
4. So the basis of your post may be flawed.
5.The rest of the post is valid, please do not wrap it up in rubbish.

http://venturebeat.com/2015/05/12/e...nt-fixture-at-new-yorks-museum-of-modern-art/
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=1341004
uh huh, im out, don't have time to research all this more for you, feel free, the next question was answered by me already and the next two are, inane.

 

[excalibus]

Griefing is griefing.
Shooting out someone's engines and leaving them to self destruct is griefing.
I don't think anyone here has much trouble with the definition of griefing.

That is not 'griefing', if the same person was targetting the same player every time they launched and did this THEN it could be viewed as 'griefing'

That's not even possible. But yes, most people that complain and whine on forums (not only regarding to greifing) are people that have no idea how to play the game and use all that it has to offer.

Indeed since the reboot engines update it is not possible anymore to do this... It was possible once but it isn't anymore...

I'm fairly certain it is.
I know where you're coming from, but a lot of people play ED specifically because it isn't the same kind of dog-eat-dog game that EVE is.

no its not...

Thing is Robert - PvP-Pro's preying on completely new players who have absolutely no idea about rebooting, it is indeed still very much a problem

Then perhaps they should have read the manual ... or in the very least read the screen they accessed to initiate self destruction because reboot ship systems is also on that tab if I am not mistaken...

True, it happened to me too once and I self-destructed because I didn't know how to react. Duh.

See my statement for the previous quote

someone kept ramming me everytime I left the station untill I had to pretty much start from afresh, makes grinding pointless, I can understand players having a really unhappy experience playing this game and legitametly not liking it for that reason but people arent sympathetic..

game or not it feels terrible for some people.

If it was the same person doing it to you over and over then that IS griefing, there are options available such as going into solo to get out away from that player then adding them to your block list etc, you could also add them to your block list, logout to main and log back in and you possibly might not be instanced with them again but that is not 100% guaranteed compared to going into either SOLO or Private group mode...

Doesn't this thread show us perfectly how difficult it is for FD to tackle griefing? If you ask every person who has posted on this thread to define "griefing" I bet you wouldn't get more than two agreeing, what's griefing to one is "pvp fun" to another, even people on the wrong end of what some call griefing can't agree on what it actually is. The OP was asked what his definition of it is but didn't reply, I have no idea what it actually is but I don't play in Open, mainly due to when I've tried the performance is really poor, it becomes unplayable in busy systems. So how can FD tackle griefing when no one knows what it actually is?

Indeed, although I do believe most people and this includes FDev staff, would agree that griefing in a gaming sense IS the repeated abuse, harrassment or destruction of another individual players game enjoyment, not a single instance of such destruction but repeated actions done by one individual to cause distress time and time again to another individual. To that extent FDev have both given us the so called tools to deal with it in the form of solo mode and with the blocking mechanism although the blocking mechanism is not 100% even though I feel that they should make it so if you are on a blocked list you cannot ever be instances with someone on your list regardless of the friends list standings.

ED has play styles available for all sorts of players. weather its people who want PVP, PVE or a mixture of both...

 

[Ghostickles]

Are you sure you played EVE and understand the game mechanics?
Let me clarify some for you:
- PVP in the "secure" space (secure i asssume is hisec) most of the time it's not voluntary, most of the time is the direct result of suicide ganks (for reference please consult eve-kill and see for yourself the alliance with most kills these months; most of the time is The Code with suicide ganks in hisec way more than wars in nullsec)
- when you lost a ship in EVE it's not mandatory to lose the escape capsule (pod in the EVE terms); the capsule hold your implants and in hisec (and lowsec by extension but in lowsec you can encounter a smartbombs camp) is almost impossible to be poded (lost the escape capsule), so losing implants is very improbable
- you say criminals are banished from "civilised" space; i assume to refer to hisec if that is your opinion, please read the river of tears caused by The Code alliance in hisec and James 315 the named saviour of hisec (disclaimer: i am big fan of this guy)

Last one: please define griefing and don't tell me shooting other players ships is griefing because it isn't in a game designed around ships with lazors, cannons etc (another disclaimer personally i don't shoot players starter ships like freewinders but anything up is fine).

You read too deep. I believe I covered suicide gankers, and intentionally chose not to Delve into the deeper mechanics of the game because of the response you get. I am not saying 'import EvE'. I am saying; this is a video game, these things happen in games, one very successful game does these things because... Im not writing a 'how to are play EvE, kk, and please remember to 'have a nice day'.

EDIT: I just learned about the reboot, just now, this thread. mind asplodes.

 

[I and I Redeye]

There is very little griefing in this game and compared to other open games this one is very tame.

I've wiped my save a few times and don't see anything of the sort happening.
It happens but not anywhere near as is reported on these forums.

It's all hysteria and the anti pvp brigade constant sniping at open players on these forums.

 

[micky1984]

Doesn't this thread show us perfectly how difficult it is for FD to tackle griefing? If you ask every person who has posted on this thread to define "griefing" I bet you wouldn't get more than two agreeing, what's griefing to one is "pvp fun" to another, even people on the wrong end of what some call griefing can't agree on what it actually is. The OP was asked what his definition of it is but didn't reply, I have no idea what it actually is but I don't play in Open, mainly due to when I've tried the performance is really poor, it becomes unplayable in busy systems. So how can FD tackle griefing when no one knows what it actually is?

I agree with you but its obvious that human nature is kicking in an players than have something bad happen to them look to a convienient scapegoat to absolve themselves of any blame or responsibility " i died it must be griefing " which is sad when in reality it damn easy to escape interdictions

 

[Arubeto]

Even though I agree with your main statement that the bounty and security system in Eve could teach ED some lessons, this last sentence of yours will likely not hold true:

At best we may see less QQ shot me threads.

We already got plenty of whining about the new bounty system where people can't just wash their hands clean anymore by paying of their own bounties. I think it's absolutely appropriate but it caused QQing nonetheless. I would welcome even harsher bounty mechanics, but predicting less whining due to it is - sorry - naive.

 

[Hurricane Moon]

why dont we get fines no more? straight to bounty it seems?

used to be you get a fine and 24hrslater that fine turned to bounty...you could pay it off....or someone could collect.

i just get pain old bounty straight away...with a waiting time attatched.

 

[lftt205]

Well on this subject i have been a victim of Griefing! No bounty on me, interdicted from Hypercruise, ran away and interdicted from hypercruise three times more until he got me!!! Other players around and with ships bigger than mine, What do you call that then? Hmmm!!!

 

[kazana]

Well on this subject i have been a victim of Griefing! No bounty on me, interdicted from Hypercruise, ran away and interdicted from hypercruise three times more until he got me!!! Other players around and with ships bigger than mine, What do you call that then? Hmmm!!!

With all the exclamation marks, I am inclined to believe this is a sarcasm/troll attempt.

If it is not:
I call that a failed escape attempt.
Search the forums for "high waking" to get a potential strategy to add to your arsenal.

 

[lftt205]

Many thanks Kazana for the advice I see the light now! LOL!!! Don't worry about the exclamation marks its an old habit of mine!! No Sarcasm/troll attempt!! But that player not NPC was relentless LOL!! But again, then i had the Cobra which was not fully decked out and against a Python not much of chance in an open battle at my skill level. Great stuff!!

 

[micky1984]

Well on this subject i have been a victim of Griefing! No bounty on me, interdicted from Hypercruise, ran away and interdicted from hypercruise three times more until he got me!!! Other players around and with ships bigger than mine, What do you call that then? Hmmm!!!

as per the idea of the game you can do anything you want its legitimate game play your failure to get away remians your failure what were you flying and what was after you? if your flying a cobra and you failed to get away in the fastest ship in the game then i question your intelligence i have been interdicted in a cobra by nearly every larger ship in the game and have never been killed in it i suggest you tube videos on how to escape. As for even trying to battle a python in a cobra that says it all all you need to do is fly away top speed 500m turn face python fly right past him hes is then forced to turn while you boost away thenback into SC or hyperspace its really that simple

 

[Cody]

... i question your intelligence...

<guffaws>

 

[lftt205]

THanks for the advice. And with regards to my intelligence which has nothing to do with knowing the capabilities of my ship and my combat awareness in this game or whether I should have known what to do, I think the comment was not required. If you are going to give advice be constructive with giving it and not destructive.

Just a thought!!! End of Discussion (by my part).