Unknown Artefact (or artifact) Community Thread - The Canonn

[Han_Zen]

Odd, when I look at Legees in the Galaxy Map, I see no mention of "Large Bug-Eyed Lizards", in the info pane or on any of the detail pane for each body/station in the system. And I don't find Legis at all?

In the original Elite all systems had a short description and a type of inhabitants. These were procedurally generated and often humors. A few of these "Old worlds" exist in ED. Most of them in the Lave cluster where all the systems are on Y coordinate 49.

Legees is the exception to this rule. It is almost exactly on the same X and Z as Lave, but it is on a higher Y.
Legees was the home to the "Large Bug-Eyed Lizards" and was described as "famous for it's exotic night life but ravaged by frequent earthquakes."
It was located in the bottom left corner of galaxy map 1.

That's all there is to this. I told you it was silly

P.S. Legis was a typo.

 

[PsychoFish]

Large bug-eyes lizards, exotic night life and frequent earthquakes. ... What could possibly go wrong in a system like this?!

 

[mrtree]

Thanks for the sheet Wishblend, I took a copy and I'm using that to do a few basic stats on the sets of data.


No, they're not. To the eye, then yes it *looks* random.
If you take a ratio for the purple flashes vs total, and green flashes vs total, you get 2 sets of reciprocal data. Finding the mean and standard deviation (SD) for each data set shows that the figures are actually constrained. The data sets for Segnir show some drift either side of the mean, but 5 of the 7 points are within +/-1SD of the mean, with 1 high and 1 low outlier.
The statistics for Farorar are even better. The small SD shows the data set is constrained within a tight range.

Segnir
Purple    Average   0.566    Green   Average   0.434
             SD     0.144              SD      0.144
            +1SD    0.710             +1SD     0.578
            -1SD    0.422             -1SD     0.290

Farorar
Purple    Average   0.648    Green   Average   0.352
             SD     0.077              SD      0.077
             +1SD   0.725             +1SD     0.428
             -1SD   0.572             -1SD     0.275

What this tells us is that we should continue to get multiple readings from each system. 7 times is a sweet spot because it's enough data to be meaningful, but not so much that you're wasting all your free time watching things flash on your screen.
I think we should also use the "mean of the ratios" from each set of readings so it smooths out any peculiar or outlier data points.
This is the copied sheet I've been using...
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dKwhwlTK56SBSWdliwaXkwl2KY1p058x6KR9raAJJPk/edit?usp=sharing

The fluctuation you talk about gets smoothed out when you take the means of the flash ratios for multiple readings.
High school statistical maths can help you determine if a set of data is random, or is a defined value with a spread either side.


Now that sounds interesting Grumbleweed. I don't have a copy of the book, so can you summarise what the "Federation Blink Code" is please?

You haven't let anyone down. You've been the primary mover behind testing hypotheses for UAs. And it's not like they've all been destroyed, we still have RedWizard's and mrtree's don't we?

I've taken to working with both purple and green because we don't know which colour means what. It might be that more purple is closer to the source instead of green for all we know. We've all *assumed* the green is the right one because "green is go". I'm not saying Wishblend or anyone else is wrong, but I am saying we need to consider both possibilities equally.

Recorded results from the Faroras drops - http://youtu.be/15G_NqIHURo. I count 15 purple, 13 green the first drop. Then 15 purple, 12 green second drop. I only watched once though, so I could be wrong on those counts.

EDIT: I went back & compared my results to https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=162998&page=38&p=2510274&viewfull=1#post2510274. Doesn't seem close to the counts there, but seems to match the rough percentages above? I'll try Segnir tomorrow evening.

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You can't chat to it directly, and it doesn't respond to local chat. There certainly hasn't been any obvious change in sounds/colours after local chat, though I'm not sure anyone has done any systematic testing (that'd be hard though since we'd presumably have to say the right thing to get a response).

I yelled at it in local chat, demanding it to give me answers or get off my lawn. It just hung out in space & did its honk/chitter thing.

 

[Ian Phillips]

.....we'd presumably have to say the right thing to get a response....

Could start with the time honoured "We come in peace"

 

[Jacob Marshall]

I have the day off today, so will read the wiki and get cross-check which of my hare-brained ideas have been crossed off. One last mad throw of the dice before I bone up on the history of this thing.

This has probably been tried at least 5000 times but I don't remember seeing it - has anyone tried communicating with a UA? and if so, do its sounds/colors change?

Ok this, and also not wishing to give up on Wishblend's findings/idea. Between the honking, and the chittering and the changing colours could the case be that we* are correct in thinking that it's scanning and communicating but incorrect in the assumption that it's looking for a fixed point in space?

The UAs have no independent means of travel but are being carried in convoys? Could the changing colours still be hotter/colder but in relation to (an) other UAs?

I caught a mention earlier of space whales; could they be singing to each other; are they seeding-ships?

Again, sorry for re-hashing old ideas but this actually woke me up...

*Not really including me in this, the work you guys have done is spellbinding.

EDIT:

Could start with the time honoured "We come in peace"

Welcome and congratulations Human, you have solved the Cosmic Mystery. Please find attached the answer to The Meaning of Everything:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ

 

[QorbeQ]

No, they're not. To the eye, then yes it *looks* random.
If you take a ratio for the purple flashes vs total, and green flashes vs total, you get 2 sets of reciprocal data. Finding the mean and standard deviation (SD) for each data set shows that the figures are actually constrained. The data sets for Segnir show some drift either side of the mean, but 5 of the 7 points are within +/-1SD of the mean, with 1 high and 1 low outlier.
The statistics for Farorar are even better. The small SD shows the data set is constrained within a tight range.

Ok, so now we're theorising that the creators built in a direction-finding homing-beacon marco-polo kind of thing, but only if you a) notice that it's there and b) do it multiple times in any given system and c) take the average of that data and d) then discover that, within 1SD the data is actually constrained and e) then repeat the same for multiple systems and f) plot that data in an attempt to work out a "direction" and g) ...

Sorry, but I'm really not convinced that they would bother to code a direction-finder into the UA but then make it so difficult to use. Can you imagine an alien/Thargoid/Fed scientist "design meeting" where they planned all of the above? Happy to be persuaded otherwise, but it's already an exceptionally rare device to find - adding in all of those convoluted steps just seems really unlikely.

 

[Cymek]

Has anyone tried carrying all the different types of cargo with the UA to see if anything happens including another UA.

 

[LordZoltan]

You can't chat to it directly, and it doesn't respond to local chat. There certainly hasn't been any obvious change in sounds/colours after local chat, though I'm not sure anyone has done any systematic testing (that'd be hard though since we'd presumably have to say the right thing to get a response).

How about flashing Morse at it with the ship's lights?

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Ok, so now we're theorising that the creators built in a direction-finding homing-beacon marco-polo kind of thing, but only if you a) notice that it's there and b) do it multiple times in any given system and c) take the average of that data and d) then discover that, within 1SD the data is actually constrained and e) then repeat the same for multiple systems and f) plot that data in an attempt to work out a "direction" and g) ...

Sorry, but I'm really not convinced that they would bother to code a direction-finder into the UA but then make it so difficult to use. Can you imagine an alien/Thargoid/Fed scientist "design meeting" where they planned all of the above? Happy to be persuaded otherwise, but it's already an exceptionally rare device to find - adding in all of those convoluted steps just seems really unlikely.

I gotta say I'm in this camp on this one. As I said yesterday, I agree that if we see all-green/all-purple behaviour from it, then that could be significant - and likely location-related since the other 'information' emitted by the UA is location-dependent (the Morse).

But I think if we do see that, though, then it's also likely that the location itself will already be of significance and we won't have to guess as to the meaning of the green/purple.

 

[LordZoltan]

So I've been wondering whether our analysis of the UA is limited by its short lifespan out in the black. Instead of trying to get it to do something - what if there were a way to keep it alive longer and give it more time to do what it wants to do?

We know it survives inside a ship's hold, so does it still make its noise while it's in there?

Perhaps if one CMDR could target another whose ship has the UA in its hold, you might hear the UA coming through? Or does it appear as a subsystem that can be targeted directly?

Just a thought... I can't find reference on the wiki to it having been done, and don't remember anyone talking about it having been done either.

 

[Han_Zen]

Ok, so now we're theorising that the creators built in a direction-finding homing-beacon marco-polo kind of thing, but only if you a) notice that it's there and b) do it multiple times in any given system and c) take the average of that data and d) then discover that, within 1SD the data is actually constrained and e) then repeat the same for multiple systems and f) plot that data in an attempt to work out a "direction" and g) ...

Sorry, but I'm really not convinced that they would bother to code a direction-finder into the UA but then make it so difficult to use. Can you imagine an alien/Thargoid/Fed scientist "design meeting" where they planned all of the above? Happy to be persuaded otherwise, but it's already an exceptionally rare device to find - adding in all of those convoluted steps just seems really unlikely.

It seems unlikely doesn't it ?
The only thing that doesn't look random is the fact that Purple pulses are dominant.

However I see no harm in doing data collection. We get a lot of UA videos in different locations and we might learn something else (good job Mrtree).
I do think it a bit of time wasting to collect large amounts of data in the same region, when we know the ratios are fluctuating.
I would spread out more to see if there are areas with Green pulse dominance.
From the data we have now, I think somewhere around 120:40:90 would be a god start.

 

[bartmoss]

Ok, so now we're theorising that the creators built in a direction-finding homing-beacon marco-polo kind of thing, but only if you a) notice that it's there and b) do it multiple times in any given system and c) take the average of that data and d) then discover that, within 1SD the data is actually constrained and e) then repeat the same for multiple systems and f) plot that data in an attempt to work out a "direction" and g) ...

Sorry, but I'm really not convinced that they would bother to code a direction-finder into the UA but then make it so difficult to use. Can you imagine an alien/Thargoid/Fed scientist "design meeting" where they planned all of the above? Happy to be persuaded otherwise, but it's already an exceptionally rare device to find - adding in all of those convoluted steps just seems really unlikely.

Actually, yes. Pioneer and Voyager probes carried plagues and disks, respectively, which, among other things, included a diagram on how to locate Earth. This might easily be an alien's version of that.

It could also simply be an unintentional side-ffect, a bug, if you will, that we are now exploiting, but I find that less persuasive than intent.

And yes, it could very well be a trap.

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Could start with the time honoured "We come in peace"

Or the slightly more scary, "take me to your leaders".

 

[Ryder35]

Sorry, but I'm really not convinced that they would bother to code a direction-finder into the UA but then make it so difficult to use. Can you imagine an alien/Thargoid/Fed scientist "design meeting" where they planned all of the above?

Sounds like I imagine the PowerPlay design meeting must have gone

Sorry couldn't resist

 

[Grumbleweed]

I'm also not sold on the statistical approach, but then I wasn't sold on the Morse either at first, so what do I know?

Given the lack of any leads I do think any avenue is worth a peek until we get a LITTLE STEER FROM FD.

Oh oops did I have my caps lock on?

 

[RedWizzard]

How about flashing Morse at it with the ship's lights?

I thought of that after writing that post too! But still, what to say?

 

[LordZoltan]

I thought of that after writing that post too! But still, what to say?

Yeah, quite the responsibility, first(ish) contact!

How about 'can has cheezburgr?'

 

[Han_Zen]

I thought of that after writing that post too! But still, what to say?

" Hello Bug-Eyed, Lizardy creature of approximately one standard galactic ton size. Please tell me your home system, so I can take you there and receive richness, fame and glory"

 

[CMDR Boozeman]

Silly idea, but..

Has anyone tested, what happen when you blink your ship lights on UA?

Maybe blinking the system name or "Alien Go Home" with morse code will cause "Independence Day" -effect

Edit: Ship lights tested, but the system name with morse code can still be tested.

 

[Kulin]

That is some really nice work you did there. Must have cost you dozens of hours. Thanks for your effort.

Nonetheless the result seems to be that this pulses could be random:
1. The pulses are not changing only when you go in a certain direction - something that would be essential for a "hot-hotter-cold-freezing..." game - but they change every time.
2. The pulses are sometimes too different, even when the systems are pretty close to each other. For example Viroman and Erisha.
3. Even within the same system, looking in the same direction, the amount of signals fluctuate heavily. You shouldn't get different result when testing at the same position.

Or did i miss something?

The fluctuation you talk about gets smoothed out when you take the means of the flash ratios for multiple readings.
High school statistical maths can help you determine if a set of data is random, or is a defined value with a spread either side.

Sorry, but this is just polemic and that does not help the case at all. Saying its based on a random number generator does not mean the RNG HAS to put out 50% purple and 50% green pulses. But to react in a equally polemic way: Every child should be able to determine a tendency. Especially when every dataset contains only about 7-8 numbers. You don't even need highschool math if the outcome points into a certain direction. We are also very far away from a statistical relevant amount, which would be atleast 50-100 tests per system.

In my opinion its pretty clear that Frontier does not want us to gather so MUCH data to get the amount we'd need. Im 99,8% ( ) sure that they would never design a cipher in this style. This would be just not fun and nothing than annoying. And it would be extremely contradictory to the implication of the statement "you are overthinking the problem". I think that if they would have put a message in this emission they wouldn't hide it behind so much fluctuation.

In one thing i agree nonetheless. The tendency to purple is strange and something we need to think about. But all tests up to now are not the slightest proof that this tendency can be influenced. STATISTICALLY(with the very low amount of data we have) the chance for a green light is currently at about 8 to 13 especially the tests in the same star systems do not differ enough from this number to speak from significant or relevant. Based on the current data i think we have a random generator that has a ~40% chance to put out a green light and a ~60% chance to give out a purple light, clearly incfluenced by the length of the chitter-sequence.

I also think we should consider that we have 400 billion solar systems at our hand. Hiding a "cold-colder-hot-hotter" game for such a region behind so few numbers seems to be very implausible. How far to you have to fly to change this chance from 40 to 60 to about 41 to 59 in such a HUGE galaxy? And how hard would it be to determine this difference statistically?

Yes, i think its a plausible proposal that we should find out if it is possible to influence this chance somehow. But we also should not forget: When you hear hoofbeats, think of horses, not zebras. Probably its just a bug. Think about it: RGB (255,0,255) = Purple. RGB (0,255,0) = Green. That would mean that he wanted to give out three colors but in cause of a bug he gives out only two, one of them a mix of red and blue(which is purple), explaining why the chance is so close to 66% for purple and 33% for green.

 

[Wishblend]

So I've been wondering whether our analysis of the UA is limited by its short lifespan out in the black. Instead of trying to get it to do something - what if there were a way to keep it alive longer and give it more time to do what it wants to do?

We know it survives inside a ship's hold, so does it still make its noise while it's in there?

Perhaps if one CMDR could target another whose ship has the UA in its hold, you might hear the UA coming through? Or does it appear as a subsystem that can be targeted directly?

Just a thought... I can't find reference on the wiki to it having been done, and don't remember anyone talking about it having been done either.

Cargo scanning a ship with it being carried, I only know of scanning he type 9 when you first get it, I don't think that it has been friendly cargo scanned and listened to.

 

[Han_Zen]

When you hear hoofbeats, think of horses, not zebras.

What, not unicorns and centaurs?