I am disheartened, my fellow commanders

I agree, many MMOs do have those stats. However, if your point is that ED should be more like those games I just have to politely disagree. I don't want ED to turn into a 'Everyone's a winner, you saved the galaxy as did everyone else! nobody can kill you in your happy place, unlimited experience points for only $9.99 (special price, just for YOU!), get your Laser of Uber Carnage + 1 for only 250 Origin Points!' nonsense.

Personally I'm much more interested in where the devs are taking this game than 'the general community'. Which is just IMHO and all those disclaimers, so if others disagree thats cool, too.

Who ever said a game needed to be like that to be fun to play? Eq was never like that, in fact you couldn't buy currency or anything else, and it took 6 hours per day of high end raid content to even see what high end items were available.

If you like this game in general, then you should be very concerned about how long it holds onto players attention, because without that, the game will eventually fail. I can give you dozens of examples, even of games with many times more players than this game currently has, and they still failed.
 
When people say 'this is meaningless, my actions don't matter', what do people expect their actions to result in, given they are a single individual amongst simulated trillions? In an open-ended game what are people ultimately expecting other than gaining more stuff, ranking up and occasionally getting a pat on the head from powers-that-be or the pilot's federation?
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1) The 'core' of Elite to me is the 'one man, one ship' thing, and the game should stick more rigidly to simulation of ship systems and personal interaction with NPC contacts involved in combat and trading, leaving the broad sweep of markets, events and politics as abstractions run in the background simulation, however...
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2) The range of scales over which the background simulation should (has to) work are pretty staggering. For a single commander to achieve local superiority (in trading, combat or whatever) in a backwater system should be feasible - destroying a handful of ships should have impact to local factions, or delivering 100 tonnes of goods should completely distort a market. But the system also has to scale to high pop worlds, with billions of inhabitants and production capabilities of thousands of ships or millions of tonnes of goods. Hence it's far easier to clamp local trade to fairly fixed min-max values, with constantly replenishing stocks, or spawn endless waves of AI ships to farm, so that everybody in the theme park gets a chance to ride.
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3) It would be nice for combat situations to generate a fixed number of assets, or key targets (defences, C3I intallations, depots and resource hubs, shipyards etc.) in a system and generate missions to counter or defend these assets. However, how do you balance this? You've got the instancing nightmare to contend with (aggregation of destroyed and active resources? How?), and if too few assets are generated and too many commanders show up, your war's over before its begun. See end of point 2 again. Best you can hope for is to somehow give AI ships generic missions and communicate what they are doing via comms to the player, I suppose.
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4) If Frontier can get some form of randomly generated story arcs of the ground, with enough archetypes to make them varied, and Tier 2 NPCs with decent comms for interaction, in, that would be a vast improvement on putting a personal face on the game. Again however, I'd be curious as to how you could make NPCs persist in the nightmare of p2p instancing, or across and amongst player 'histories' generally (e.g. can NPCs be shared between players? if you kill and NPC I need how is that handled? Is it easier to maintain a list of NPCs to interact with separately for each client account etc.?).
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5) At the end of the day, this is an update of Elite, Frontier and FFE. All of those games are regarded highly, and all were criticised for having huge, but sterile, empty and 'samey' universes. Levelling that criticism at E: D is therefore somewhat predictable. Personally, I can live with it, as it does make the game very easy to dip into for a couple of hours, or leave for a few months, then come back and carry on. It doesn't require much from the user once the base systems are learnt, which is both a blessing, and a curse if you are playing intensively, when you realise the man behind the curtain is an emperor with no clothes (sorry - having fun mixing metaphors these days... :D )
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6) Anyone who says 'it would be better with guilds, player-owned stations, or player crewed cap-ships', just consider that you've earned a 'Paddington hard stare' from me, OK? :D
 
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Lol! The 1 percent? Have you seen any of the player stats? This game has ground through tens of thousands of players that bought the game but no longer play. In fact about 2 in 10 that purchased the game still play the game after a month.

And in a business model where only new buyers are a money source, it couldn't be going any better for FD. Anyone who keeps playing is just a cost to support. As unliked as a subscription model is (and there's no way I'd pay one for this game in its current state), at least it makes sure the devs keep giving you reasons to play, rather than quit.

OP is spot on.
 
And in a business model where only new buyers are a money source, it couldn't be going any better for FD. Anyone who keeps playing is just a cost to support. As unliked as a subscription model is (and there's no way I'd pay one for this game in its current state), at least it makes sure the devs keep giving you reasons to play, rather than quit.

OP is spot on.

Indeed. Now the challenge comes when you try to sell DLC upgrades for revenue required to pay your staff. With a reputation across the major gaming sites and communities that it is fun to play for a couple weeks and not return. Now we have very few people to buy the new content, nor are they telling their friends to come over and buy the game or new content as it is released.

What do you do at that point? Go free to play with no client cost and a huge web store? Or go subscription based?

At that point you are running out of options to generate capitol to keep your business going............
 
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but I want to see my influence in the game world in some form,
:DIn other words you want and seek attention!
And you expect to get it? In a game that has, what, over 500,000 other players?
The only ways I can think of getting your name in the limelight is by:
1. being the first to discover a star or planet or such like
2. getting on the highest bounties list at a station
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There may be CGs where this can happen too, but as I have never done them or even looked at them I cannot say; same goes for PP.
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You're a nobody and you always will be.:D
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What I love about this game is getting in your ship, doing your business and trying just to survive! If I've got through a session without dying / claiming insurance then I'm chuffed.
Influence ain't on my mind.
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I've met Commanders whose ships I've watched and scanned. They've influenced my behaviour by just being there.
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So, what manifestation of form do you want to see your influence acknowledged in game? Bearing in mind that there are those 500,000 other players who also may want influence.:)
 
One of the "what matters" aspect can be the support of creativity.
There's no way we can CREATE anything in ED - something we can be attached to so that it "matters". "We are a pilot in a ship" - I hear this very often and I see this as the core of the problem. ED is a merry-go-round where we can absorb the environment but can not interact with it. A pilot in a ship looks lovely on a painting but without embedding it organically into the game world, it will not give a proper game.
This pilot in this ship does not matter at all. Whether I log in or not, whether I pledge to a power or not, whether I transport fish to a station or not, whether I kill 324 NPCs or not - none of them connects me to this huge and empty world in any ways.

There's no NEED in ED so I can't "help" nor "cross" nor "support" anyone or anything, I can't "cooperate", there's no way to "build" or "defend", it's not possible to "negotiate".
The only thing possible is to "work" for a higher credit number which can not be translated into any of the values above so credit means nothing after I have seen 2 or 3 cockpits.

I can pretend. That's what I can do. To pretend that I do all this above, I can even have friends who can pretend on the same level and fly together on this merry-go-round staring at the 2-dimensional poster passing by.
But nothing is happening really, ED's world has no "body" but it's like a ghost: transparent with promises of a body but when I want to touch it, my hand does not get any contact.
Now if I'm in need of the "Elite-feeling" I only have to take a look at a nice screenshot and it does the job. Logging in does not give any more.

So yes, some meaningful mass in this game would be fine. I mean the game itself. The packaging is top notch.
 
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Have to agree with this thread what the game does it currently does well but thats just shooting ships, grinding and making money. There isn't really any exploration, story or group stuff to keep me entertained! I play about 90% less than I use to literally just to maintain my rank 4 PP. I long for more to do that isn't aimmed at killing or shooting stuff. Trading doesn't even bring that much enjoyment as NPC interdiction are always just 1 crappy sidewinder or boring viper never a fleet or someone wanting you to join their crusade in deep space! If you don't check Galnet it makes no difference the story is lost in the grind!
 
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Just don't play the game if you don't like it.

How insightful... I doubt anyone has ever realized this. I'm pretty sure everyone playing every game ever can finally stop playing games they don't think, now that this advice has been passed along.

But why do you have to come on the forums to spread negativity, people read this before buying it, and reading your post doesn't help.

So that people that are considering buying it will know what the game may feel like in 2-3 months of gameplay. Much like it did after the first 2 weeks, except they'll have a larger ship and more credits.

I think it's becoming clear that this is a game for people with strong imaginations.

I have a strong imagination. Instead of flying a fake spaceship on a PC, I could also just sit in a decorated box in my bedroom and make Whooshing noises. Don't think anyone was support a Kickstart fundraising on that, though...

Or maybe come to the forums with ideas on what you would like to see in game that you think might make the game better..

The OP did. "Things need to move, stuff needs to go on, and I need to be able to influence this confluence of power, up or down. "

And he's not the first to offer ideas in the forum.

You know, some people love Exploring. They spend weeks doing it. At times when a player says "bored with everything, what now?" They'll suggest trying Exploration.

I tried it myself for a couple of nights.

- Jump to new system
- Fuel scoop
- Spend 2-15 mins flying up to a planet, moon, basketball, whatever's floating out there.
- Wait for the Scanner to give you that happy "got the data!" noise.
- Do this for every freaking planet, moon, whatever.
- Repeat, and pretend (using your imagination) that this is somehow more exciting than organizing your socks.
 
Just don't play the game if you don't like it. There are many others to choose from. But why do you have to come on the forums to spread negativity, people read this before buying it, and reading your post doesn't help. I like the game, it's empty enough for me to insert my own meaning onto everything I do. I think it's becoming clear that this is a game for people with strong imaginations. If you need a story line there are many other games out there. Or maybe come to the forums with ideas on what you would like to see in game that you think might make the game better, I think you will get a better response that way.

It could be that you have a superior imagination to those that find the ED universe to be an insipid experience. Then again it could be that you can't stomach any criticism of the game. I'm not interested in visiting an echo chamber that suppresses descenting opinions, especially when they are clearly expresses in a mild mannered fashion. Yours is a dangerous idea, Badben, and I would suggest that if ED ever took your advice and started shutting down negative threads on this forum it would not only be tremendously damaging to their public image, it would harmful to the development of the game. Use that superior imagination of yours and consider the possibility that if there are a number of people complaining about X it might just mean that X can be improved.
 
Use that superior imagination of yours and consider the possibility that if there are a number of people complaining about X it might just mean that X can be improved.

Or just imagine that we're all NPCs, and this is a variation of "Wedding Barge" or "Mineral Magpie" comm chatter. ;)
 
I've actually mostly stopped playing for this specific reason. I set myself a goal in game and spent many days flying resources around trying to see if anything would change, but there was no evidence of even a mild impact on the game world. I even travelled out to places that only saw 1 or 2 other ships travel through in days according to the travel logs so that it wouldn't be just wiped away by someone else doing the same kind of thing.

I understand that one person shouldn't be able to change the whole universe to their liking, but all I wanted to do was one specific thing in one system.

I would really like to see some grand sweeping things happening in the game that you can directly affect with your actions. For instance, if you sell a faction the results of system scans for a rich planet then I'd like to see missions come from that area to explore more of that system and systems around it. I'd like to see them establish missions to take a territory control satellite to the planet. Then to bring station framing or some sort of thing, and then resources to build the station. If people don't help maybe the process takes many many days, but if one person dedicates tons of time to it then I'd liek to see some type of progress showing that it's moving along faster with their help. For instance the missions could be to deliver 50000 of a resource, and if no one helps it just goes down by 1000 a day from the factions own actions, but if I deliver 500 myself and then I go look at the mission board and now they are asking for 49500 I know that something is going to happen and now I've found a new goal to hit.

There need to be things like that all over the game, things you just stumble on and suddenly you have a few goals. As of right now it just feels like they run a few scripts around an area and no matter what people do the narrative just continues along, which is the opposite but pretty much the same result as the "No child left behind" MMO games of late since everyone is the hero it ends up that nobody is a hero.

Keep in mind that 500000 people in 4 billion systems mean everyone has 8000 systems to play in without even overlapping goals.
 
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I am greatly amused every time someone trots out the 'just pretend' argument in defence of the complete lack of purpose in this game. Great, I don't even need to buy the game to do that. Or own a computer. I got the game and my HOTAS to do more than just imagine.

You have less possibility to have an effect on the world around you in the game than you do in real life. Not to mention its more repetitive. That is horribly broken.
 
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Or just imagine that we're all NPCs, and this is a variation of "Wedding Barge" or "Mineral Magpie" comm chatter. ;)

Sadly, I've considered attacking the wedding and funeral barges out of boredom. The thought passes, and realize it is time to move on, dock my ship and stop playing. I'm not in the game to play as a psychopath/sociopath, so I don't attack them.

This is going to be the closest I get to space exploration, or until a better, more immersive space game arrives, that I RP the experience. I want to be there. Unfortunately, too many things often break the immersion.
 
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As a new player myself, once I got over the jaw dropping vastness of the galaxy, you start to realize, as you said, it's an ocean with the depth of a puddle. Although I enjoy the game, and it makes other games like Destiny look like a half-ar$@ed attempt at a video game, what have I really been doing all of this time? Flying through lonely black, going from one identical copy-pasted station to the other, doing nameless trade jobs for voiceless copy-pasted people I don't care about to get more money to get a better ship, of which, when I do, will still continue to do exactly what I am now, only at a higher rate of pay, and with a bigger ship.
 
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One of the "what matters" aspect can be the support of creativity.
There's no way we can CREATE anything in ED - something we can be attached to so that it "matters". "We are a pilot in a ship" - I hear this very often and I see this as the core of the problem.

Hmmm. I've never been able to *create* anything in a flight sim (well other than destruction, or chaos with ATC) to make it "matter" to me. I don't necessarily see the need to *create* in this one. A pilot is not the aeronautical engineer who builds the ship, or the mechanic who fits the module to the ship. Having said that, at least in a flight sim you get terrain rolling by, and clouds to look at, (and the occasional SAM launch) whilst you travel. And the idea of finding NPCs to customise ships and modules is a good one.

Keep in mind that 500000 people in 4 billion systems mean everyone has 8000 systems to play in without even overlapping goals.

Also keep in mind that only 10,000 or so of those 400,000,000,000 are populated, and the vast majority of those 500,000 will be in those 10,000. But hey, according to Steam only 5,000 are playing so that's about 2 systems for each person. :)

You have less possibility to have an effect on the world around you in the game than you do in real life. Not to mention its more repetitive. That is horribly broken.

On this planet I'm one person in 7 billion. In Elite's universe I'm one in 100s of billions. In a game simulating the 'job' of being a day-to-day space pilot, I'd say both your lack of influence and the amount of grind (number of missions, not necessarily number of NPCs killed) were sort of accurate. One of the things I've always loved about Elite was that ranking up and getting access to things took time, as opposed to other open-world games where you are Archmage/Master Thief/Warlord before teatime. Now YMMV as to whether that's fun gameplay or not. I'd agree that more variety, and more things requiring skill to succeed at are needed, but not necessarily that those things should include influence and building stuff.
 
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Added rep for the OP. It does feel like your making no difference at all, everything regenerates, you just kill them all again for more credits, nothing changes.

A "persistent universe" would rock!

Like doing damage to a NPC who then somehow escapes, only to see them later limping into a star port to repair it's same damages from your battle. Or, when you kill a high profile NPC target, they are dead, instead of seeing them again afterwards a little while later alive just like nothing ever happened.

Would make for a much deeper and gratifying experience for the game.
 
Also keep in mind that only 10,000 or so of those 400,000,000,000 are populated, and the vast majority of those 500,000 will be in those 10,000. But hey, according to Steam only 5,000 are playing so that's about 2 systems for each person. :)

It doesn't have to be like that though. By now if every one of those systems had missions to fight over and expand we could be seeing 15k populated and 2k being contested with people helping fights on both side, minor factions toppled, New ones created due to civil disputes... all kind of really great action going on.

As of right now we just have the same 10k all instanced so you barely see another person and no one has any impact on anything because of how it all works.

If I have a group of people that all work together in a specific area to make trading and resources plentiful for those system then those system should be looking to expand now from their riches, or at least change in some way. I don't care if it takes a long time but there should be some indication in the game that things are moving thanks to your support.
 
Added rep for the OP. It does feel like your making no difference at all, everything regenerates, you just kill them all again for more credits, nothing changes.

A "persistent universe" would rock!

Like doing damage to a NPC who then somehow escapes, only to see them later limping into a star port to repair it's same damages from your battle. Or, when you kill a high profile NPC target, they are dead, instead of seeing them again afterwards a little while later alive just like nothing ever happened.

Would make for a much deeper and gratifying experience for the game.

Hopefully some of this may come when/if 'Tier 2' NPCs are implemented. But consider this - how are you going to store a persistent universe full of all of those NPCs? At best you could probably keep a limited pool of semi-persistent things (ships, NPCs, trade statuses) on your client (risky), or on the server (Amazon! Spool up some more! :) ). Do these NPCs exist for all players? Would you be upset if I killed off your high profile target, denying you a mission reward? Or if I killed the trade contact you were going to meet? Do we go down the traditional MMO route with instanced 'raid' NPCs?
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And "dead is dead" NPCs? Well, I think we'd burn through the backer name pool in a couple of days. :D You're going to have to accept some repetition, eventually (though it did take me 8 months to finally meet and kill my NPC :) ).
 
Sadly, very true in some ways, until they implement persistent NPC's (assuming these aren't the already implemented PP leaders) and other features.....

Still love the game but there needs to be more.....
 
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