Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread - Part the Second [Now With Added Platforms].

[Faded Glory]

It obviously needs tweaking and adjustments, but the actual idea has merit. In fact I am now in agreement with the ghist of the idea. Basically a heavy power PC presence in a particular system or cluster of systems should see a rise of NPC power members of the same type in that system. Not just in solo but in open too. And not just players playing in open but players playing in solo.

Think of it like this. When players in open do a lot of work for a particular faction (for example, patrons principles in the Nehet system), that faction will gain more influence. It doesn't matter whether those players have played in open or solo, they're still affecting the faction equally (as they should). Now if a lot of players head towards a system to interdict and interfere with power expansion that should have an affect across all mods. Not because it's PvP but because it's the general background politics of the universe.

This isn't a PvP dynamic, this is more PvE. Players are affecting the universe. Without something like this solo and open are indeed split as the open crowd want.

Agreed FuzzySpider, but as I posted in my reply to Trufflesnout, the balancing could become extremely complex.

And like I say, I really wouldn't be surprised if something like this doesn't already happen.

 

[relayer]

Would that not suggest that open is worse than solo if open was a barren wasteland?

No matter how dead open is, there will always be places you can go where you are guaranteed to meet players. Rare routes, power home bases, expansions, and CG's.

It's not me or other solo players saying Open is a barren wasteland; it's the Open players complaining about it.

I'm just turning the logic around that says that Open is "harder." If it's a "barren wasteland" it isn't "harder" unless it means "there's no human targets for me to "interact" with (pewpew).

 

[Faded Glory]

Do people know that the traffic report is not "one number = 1 player" but "how many ships have passed through" includes repeat visits by the same ships (trade running, just passing through, etc)? I've been in some trading runs in obscure places and seen that "75 Asps have passed through" when it has been only me, grinding a trade route.

I think that's fairly well understood, but thanks for pointing it out.

 

[TruffleSnout]

Well, I don't think that looking at the traffic report gives that accurate a picture of how many players are in Open, or indeed, the number of players in any mode at a specific time, as it is compiled over a 24 hour period.

You're of course correct here. I know that the traffic report is a truly blunt instrument, but in the business world we would call it "directionally accurate". Ergo a system with 1,000+ instances on the traffic report should have more "traffic" than a system with 2. I'm only using it as a way to counter this:

What I am questioning is whether FD aren't already doing this. As I said, since every mission creates a 'personalized' NPC environment for all players, my guess is that this may already happen to a degree.

If they are doing this, then the effect is subtle in the extreme. If that's the case, then perhaps they just need to bump up the volume a tad? Also adding player cargo types to the mix would be a nice touch.

The problem that still exists is how this is balanced, as it could become very complex. For example, FD see a system with a number of ranked CMDRs, so they try to balance that by inserting an appropriate number of equivalent ranked NPCs. First of all, what's an appropriate number, based on instancing / likelihood of actually meeting any or all of those CMDRs if you were in Open, and then how appropriate is the ranking? Without wishing to cause offense, ranking up in combat skills for a CMDR is as much to do with persistence as it is to do with skill, and yet NPCs will be given a skill set determined by SJA based upon what she thinks a particular rank level should have. There are lots of variables there, and in the end FD could end up overcompensating and making the game that much more difficult for every mode (NPCs are in open too).

You'll get no argument from me on any of this. My idea here is very broad-brush and I'm only thinking about it in snippets here and there during compiles at my day job. Maybe after I'm home and can spend some time thinking it through I'll put up a few more thoughts.

 

[Roland2]

The issues that this mechanic would (at least in some small way) affect are:

• Giving Pirates (in all modes) NPCs with better cargo, reducing their desire to force solo players into open (since, from their point of view, players are the only ones carrying cargo worth pirating).
• Giving Open players a feeling that their presence in a system is in fact having an affect on Solo players, balancing that against their impressions that Solo affects Open. This would be particularly felt in Power Play to a greater extent than in other aspects of the game.
• Giving Solo players a better sense of being part of the goings-on in the Galaxy. "Current hot spots" will be more apparent.

As a solo-only player that last point is an important one for me personally. The pure RNG spawns you mention have one crucial limitation: they don't take into account things like CGs, Galnet posts, or other spontaneous player-driven events (like the demolition derby). CG (as an example) systems look like any other system. When I show up to a CG system in Solo, I want to see more NPCs to get a sense that there is something going on there.

"Giving Pirates (in all modes) NPCs with better cargo, reducing their desire to force solo players into open (since, from their point of view, players are the only ones carrying cargo worth pirating)."

Since your talking about RNG, all you would be doing is affecting the seed, If NPCs don't have better cargo, then changing the seed isn't going to give them better cargo. The dev's need to add better cargo to the RNG array, if it's not already there, and decide if increasing the probability is warranted.

"Giving Open players a feeling that their presence in a system is in fact having an affect on Solo players, balancing that against their impressions that Solo affects Open. This would be particularly felt in Power Play to a greater extent than in other aspects of the game."

They already do affect PP for solo, open and group. They don't see it, so your saying they don't "feel" it. Unless they switch to solo or group at the same the RNG rolls a higher NPC count, they aren't going to see this affect either. They already act like they don't believe that they currently affect all modes for PP, what would make you think this would change anything?

Giving Solo players a better sense of being part of the goings-on in the Galaxy. "Current hot spots" will be more apparent.

As a solo player (as you put it), i couldn't care less about what's going on in the Galaxy.

In short, don't make Solo harder just because a group of players in Open or Group mode, want to be in a specific part of the Galaxy.

I can just see it, Mobius group decides to have a group party somewhere, and crashes all modes as the server tries to spawn upward of 10,000 NPSs in every group/solo/ and open instance.

 

[Phosphora]

A common thread runs through many of the Open-Only or Open-Affects-Solo posts:

<snip>.

3. The last main point is that I see "blockades" coming up over and over as an argument to justify "open is unfair compared to solo."

FD didn't put in mechanisms for this to work. My guess is that they wanted to avoid the "system ownership" problem that plagued EvE (and other games). This "we can't blockade systems" argument is the fine point of a wedge leading to permanently-blocked systems.

FD has stated that there will be no "ownership" of any systems in this game. I think it's a brilliant solution.

Agreed relayer. I like the freedom of being able to go where I like in the game. I'm not interested in having players decide that I can't go to a particular system. Blockades can be boring and frustrating to others.

I've seen the original Star Wars, and I have a bit of fun pretending to be Han Solo. If people have seen The Phantom Menace, and want to be the Trade Federation, that's fine, but please don't expect me to play along.

Cheers, Phos.

 

[FuzzySpider]

In short, don't make Solo harder just because a group of players in Open or Group mode, want to be in a specific part of the Galaxy.

That's not what this is about. The ease or difficulty of solo or open is a total red herring here. It's about the environment being affected by player action, and all modes being the same in terms of activity.

There is one thing that can't be argued - everyone playing affects the game. You're not isolated from them, and solo doesn't mean "my hermetically sealed universe". That isn't to say there is anything wrong with solo, indeed I play solo myself a lot of the time. But it undeniably is part of the universe.

Now imagine an area of space that is heavily contested by two powers. If you're there in open you're going to see these powers fighting it out. If you're pledged to one of the powers you're going to get involved if you go to this system. At the moment you can simply go to solo to avoid the players, but you also avoid the conflict.

Why?

That isn't logical. If the powers are fighting each other they should be doing it across all the modes. And remember - solo players aren't looking for "easy mode", for the most part they're simply looking to avoid player interaction. A lot of solo players will obviously want there to be this sort of conflict going on and want to participate in it.

As a solo player (as you put it), i couldn't care less about what's going on in the Galaxy.

That's fair enough, but you don't speak for all solo players and in any case if you're not pledged to a power this wouldn't affect you anyway. You'd just see higher densities of NPCs of a certain faction in certain systems, possibly even see them in combat or trying to interdict each other in those systems. This will also add to the general immersion of the game and make players of any mode feel that there is actually something happening with powerplay that matters.

 

[QziQza]

Adding more NPC's to the busier systems, to CG's, more pirates in anarchy systems, more police in high-tech/security systems would add context and flavour to a somewhat bland solo experience. I play solo/group for mirade of reasons, but I really want to see some diversity in space. I don't do PP as I can't connect with any of the powers, nor see any reason to get involved, but I do want to see a vibrant galaxy.

i guess they could also tie in the amount of extra activity provided for solo players based on their connection quality and system stats too.. the better the setup the more colour and depth could be added.

 

[Majinvash]

Agreed relayer. I like the freedom of being able to go where I like in the game. I'm not interested in having players decide that I can't go to a particular system. Blockades can be boring and frustrating to others.

I've seen the original Star Wars, and I have a bit of fun pretending to be Han Solo. If people have seen The Phantom Menace, and want to be the Trade Federation, that's fine, but please don't expect me to play along.

Cheers, Phos.

Heavens forbid any player created content that impacts your trading or NPC grinding in one of many thousand virtually identical systems.

How many of you still find any excitement or joy in grinding for more credits than you can possibly spend or shooting at easy bots escapes me.

The moment anyone talks about ANYTHING that REMOTELY could give the game some real depth and to be really honest wouldn't effect you unless you let it content.
You have the players who already scream they play in PVE mode, cry and whine about how it shouldn't effect you, how its going to be life EVE how it would be unfair on solo.

The blockade was a great example, when EIC and The Code blockaded some of the early CG's, it was great RP.
Defence wings flocked to protect the traders, traders had a hard time dropping cargo.
It felt alive and we got great feed back from the community, including the traders who were being stopped and searched.
We knew it would never stop the CG but it made those events come alive, if only for a short time.

If you didn't want to take part you just played i solo, everyone was happy. Many more of the early players were still playing and most of those played in open.

Seeing as Solo doesn't seem to be going anywhere, why is there such an out cry when anyone recommends something that you can just mode hop around?

You people want this game to last its 10 year planned cycle?

At some point they are going to have to give people stuff they want and enough people are asking about it to make it business suicide not to at least take note and consider it.
FD if you are and you are reading this SAY SOMETHING.

Walking around space stations - pointless
Planetary landing - pointless
Thargoid invasion - pointless

If its not giving you real content and a reason to take part in it.

The first two are going to be a massive waste of programming time.
What do you think you are going to able to do on the planets?
Fly to one of a number of slightly different looking but fundamentally the same landing sites.
Fly over ALOT of desert, water and forests? Maybe the odd small scale city?
Pick up X at A and drop at B

What it is is just icing and too much icing makes you teeth fall out.

But hey, lets not upset the players who want to play on their own or only play with a select group of people who think the exactly the same way.
Cos i mean, they are the ones who are really giving content to the game.

Galnet news 5years from now ( if its still going )

Guy in some system shoots an npc, there is much rejoicing.
In other news, fuel scoops 10% off at Leesti.

Majinvash

 

[QziQza]

That's not what this is about. The ease or difficulty of solo or open is a total red herring here. It's about the environment being affected by player action, and all modes being the same in terms of activity.

There is one thing that can't be argued - everyone playing affects the game. You're not isolated from them, and solo doesn't mean "my hermetically sealed universe". That isn't to say there is anything wrong with solo, indeed I play solo myself a lot of the time. But it undeniably is part of the universe.

Now imagine an area of space that is heavily contested by two powers. If you're there in open you're going to see these powers fighting it out. If you're pledged to one of the powers you're going to get involved if you go to this system. At the moment you can simply go to solo to avoid the players, but you also avoid the conflict.

Why?

That isn't logical. If the powers are fighting each other they should be doing it across all the modes. And remember - solo players aren't looking for "easy mode", for the most part they're simply looking to avoid player interaction. A lot of solo players will obviously want there to be this sort of conflict going on and want to participate in it.



That's fair enough, but you don't speak for all solo players and in any case if you're not pledged to a power this wouldn't affect you anyway. You'd just see higher densities of NPCs of a certain faction in certain systems, possibly even see them in combat or trying to interdict each other in those systems. This will also add to the general immersion of the game and make players of any mode feel that there is actually something happening with powerplay that matters.

yeah, i like that idea as a good safeguard.. it will only actually effect those players aligned with powers/factions involved in the tussle. or if they decide to engage with it directly when they are there, almost like a system by system PP version of conflict zones. actually even as a non pledge you could maybe select a side during your visit to the station and actually get involved lol

 

[Cody]

Hmm... bye!

 

[QziQza]

But hey, lets not upset the players who want to play on their own or only play with a select group of people who think the exactly the same way.
Cos i mean, they are the ones who are really giving content to the game.

Majinvash

hmmmmm, strong in hypocrisy, is this one yes.. so turn it around i will..

"But listen, let us not upset those players who want nothing more than to inflict others with senseless destruction in open, or through infiltration of pve groups. hunting players in a pack with a selection of player killer friends who all think in the exact same way. I mean, lets be honest here, it isn't as though they are driving players away from the potential fun to be had in meaningful open content, is it?"

 

[Majinvash]

Whine Whine Whine, Every PVP player is going to kill. zzzzzzzzzzzz

Did you miss the RP statement in there?

 

[relayer]

How many of you still find any excitement or joy in grinding for more credits than you can possibly spend or shooting at easy bots escapes me.

So, other modes and styles of play are beyond your reckoning. You can hardly judge them in that case.


The moment anyone talks about ANYTHING that REMOTELY could give the game some real depth and to be really honest wouldn't effect you unless you let it content.
You have the players who already scream they play in PVE mode, cry and whine about how it shouldn't effect you, how its going to be life EVE how it would be unfair on solo.


If you can't argue your points without descending into verbal attacks, no one's going to take your proposals seriously.



The blockade was a great example, when EIC and The Code blockaded some of the early CG's, it was great RP.
Defence wings flocked to protect the traders, traders had a hard time dropping cargo.
It felt alive and we got great feed back from the community, including the traders who were being stopped and searched.
We knew it would never stop the CG but it made those events come alive, if only for a short time.

If you didn't want to take part you just played i solo, everyone was happy. Many more of the early players were still playing and most of those played in open.


Why aren't they happy now?


Seeing as Solo doesn't seem to be going anywhere, why is there such an out cry when anyone recommends something that you can just mode hop around?


Solo is going where it want to go; that is the whole point.

Mode hopping is not a problem with modes; it is a problem with players. Most solos don't go anywhere near open; maybe some go to groups.



At some point they are going to have to give people stuff they want and enough people are asking about it to make it business suicide not to at least take note and consider it.


There are at least 10,000 players in Mobius, many more in other groups and lots and lots of solo players who are getting what they want and happy about it.


Walking around space stations - pointless
Planetary landing - pointless
Thargoid invasion - pointless

If its not giving you real content and a reason to take part in it.

So, everything is pointless besides PvP? You bought the wrong game. Quite a few people have been avidly looking forward to the introduction of Thargoids, walking around space stations and planetary landings.

put my points in order of yours, above.

- - - Updated - - -

Whine Whine Whine, Every PVP player is going to kill. zzzzzzzzzzzz

Did you miss the RP statement in there?

You don't seem to be able to post without mocking, belittling, aggressive and slatternly comments.
Why is that?
The more you do it, the less people will read anything you write. Human nature.

BTW, you are exactly the type of player that I wish to avoid, and I am glad solo mode allows me to avoid you.

 

[Moriarte]

FD if you are and you are reading this SAY SOMETHING.

Walking around space stations - pointless
Planetary landing - pointless
Thargoid invasion - pointless

If its not giving you real content and a reason to take part in it.

The first two are going to be a massive waste of programming time.
What do you think you are going to able to do on the planets?
Fly to one of a number of slightly different looking but fundamentally the same landing sites.
Fly over ALOT of desert, water and forests? Maybe the odd small scale city?
Pick up X at A and drop at B

Nah, we want CQC. Log in with beer in the left hand, kill X amount of players, feel good about yourself, log out, go to bed. Yet another brilliant evening with xbox. We don't want your content, emerging gameplay, living galaxy. Things of the past, don't even argue. If you don't like what I am saying - you don't have imagination, so go play EVE.

CMDR FrontierKnight.

 

[Majinvash]

put my points in order of yours, above.

- - - Updated - - -




You don't seem to be able to post without mocking, belittling, aggressive and slatternly comments.
Why is that?
The more you do it, the less people will read anything you write. Human nature.

BTW, you are exactly the type of player that I wish to avoid, and I am glad solo mode allows me to avoid you.

Cry those tears.

I am talking about stuff that could make the game more engaging, you are stuck in your PVP am Bad.. PVE am GOOD..

People like you are the reason I play open, so I can avoid you.

 

[Jockey79]

...
I am talking about stuff that could make the game more engaging, you are stuck in your PVP am Bad.. PVE am GOOD..
....

Welcome back to the thread, long time no see.

Any suggestion to add content to the game that does not hinder or impact those whom do not want to partake are always welcome.
As PvP is more your thing, I hope CQC will be to your liking. I know I am hyped for it.

It is a shame open advocates demand Solo and Group players see things from their perspective, yet refuse to do the same back.
Then you might understand why some folks don't wish to share their limited and valuable relaxation time with others.
I know I've learnt a lot from open advocates in this debate and I've seen open advocate learn from Solo and Group players. I've even given Open Mode a go due to the debate.

 

[CMDR Malkov]

Any suggestion to add content to the game that does not hinder or impact those whom do not want to partake are always welcome.

OK, here is another quick thought.

OPEN ONLY OPTION

How about the option to flag your character as "Open Only"? Once you make this choice only the Open option is available to you.
While the appeal of this might be limited it could provide some interesting opportunities that aren't workable with the current modes.
These are the most obvious that spring to mind:

1) Bounty system
Player kills by Open Only players would result in a murder tag and a separate (very large) bounty that cannot be removed except by being claimed by another Open Only player. This would add a little more consequence to murdering another player and also make player bounty hunting more viable, as they would not be able to remove it or hide in solo. The tag and bounty would apply if you kill anybody who is not already tagged as a murderer.

2) Most Wanted List
Basically a list of the biggest murderers in game, ordered by current murder bounty. Caters both to those who crave infamy and those seeking to bring them to justice.

 

[Asp Explorer]

OK, here is another quick thought.

OPEN ONLY OPTION

An interesting idea - but how is that going to work when I am sent to Uttanoplace, where 56k dialup is still a luxury? Should I have to clear my save in order to play the game? That connection won't support Open, and we only have one commander slot.

 

[CMDR Malkov]

An interesting idea - but how is that going to work when I am sent to Uttanoplace, where 56k dialup is still a luxury? Should I have to clear my save in order to play the game? That connection won't support Open, and we only have one commander slot.

That's a fair point but I guess you would have to weigh up possibilities like that before you select this option. The kind of people it would appeal to most are likely those who only ever log into open anyway.

Or Frontier could allow a second commander slot.