You mean a plunger tied to the end of a rope.
Piracy and smuggling need love.
- Thread starter VladtheImpaler
- Start date
You mean a plunger tied to the end of a rope.
I would go even further and say that there should be a separate save for open and solo play, with no interaction between the two. Or better yet, remove solo altogether and leave only open. It boggles me that a game that a game that markets itself as "dangerous" has an easy button let's the player remove the danger at their own convenience.
It really messes with the multiplayer aspect of the game. Can you imagine how many more player interactions would take place if everyone was in open.
.
The ONLY danger a player removes when opting for Solo is against another Commander and as everyone seems to be whining about, most of the time you don't see any Commanders in Open anyway. And with what Mistress Sarah has been saying, at least in regard to the NPCs, Solo will be just as dangerous as Open!
.
BTW, I gather by '.. more player interactions ..' you mean targets to steal from right? lol
The day that npcs pose a legitimate threat to competent players is the day that I'll agree with the statement that solo will be as dangerous as open. And yes the only danger removed when going to solo is from other players. Funnily enough though, that is just about all of the danger competent commanders are exposed to. I wonder where all of the commanders are if they aren't in open... hmmm.
More player interaction means.. more people flying around for me to talk to, collaborate with, bounty hunt and yes pirate from among other things.
.
.
Get ready to agree to that statement soon then if what SJA is cooking up is implemented. Have a read of this thread and pay particular attention to what Sarah is saying: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=166663
Just skimmed through it and nothing on there convinced me otherwise. It simply seems like they are making higher ranked npcs less of a pushover and possibly a challenge now. Highly doubt it will come close to the danger from player interactions but I hope to be proven wrong.
I agree with the seperate saves.
I mean, 1 save for solo/private and 1 for open.
Hell, my signature even has an idea written in.
These people want a roleplay sandbox, where does solo come into that?
"And according to some contemporary estimates, 4/5 of all tea drunk in England had not paid duty."
Worth a read
http://www.smuggling.co.uk/history.html
Worth a read
http://www.smuggling.co.uk/history.html
I make 100 times more money bounty hunting than being a pirate or trader.. i really wanted to do trade runs.. did that all the way up to my first Type-7.. then decided "I'm bored".. bought a Vulture, then made a stack of credits, and a lot of fun bounty hunting..
You can't really have fun trading as a wing... if you want to be a pirate, you need cargo space.. and if you have cargo space, you're missing out on lots of good modules and stuff that will help you. Most of the time you've gotta lug the loot back to a star-port... and effectively do mini-trade and combat missions.. you make far more credits and earn more rep (combat) as a bounty hunter IMHO than a pirate.
They really should do something a bit better with piracy tho, and I support the OP on this.
The pirate outposts suck - what do they really do? They are a faceless, content lacking trade outpost that doesn't give you pirate missions... how about you get some gossip or news in the bulletin boards at pirate outposts saying that there's a particular ship that makes regular refuelling stop offs at the nearby star, carrying XXXXXX commodity, and put that into the game dynamics?
Why can't you have a pirate capital ship that you can trade with, that's not linked to an outpost?
There's opportunity to advance the game mechanics, and it seems pretty simple if you asked me.
You can't really have fun trading as a wing... if you want to be a pirate, you need cargo space.. and if you have cargo space, you're missing out on lots of good modules and stuff that will help you. Most of the time you've gotta lug the loot back to a star-port... and effectively do mini-trade and combat missions.. you make far more credits and earn more rep (combat) as a bounty hunter IMHO than a pirate.
They really should do something a bit better with piracy tho, and I support the OP on this.
The pirate outposts suck - what do they really do? They are a faceless, content lacking trade outpost that doesn't give you pirate missions... how about you get some gossip or news in the bulletin boards at pirate outposts saying that there's a particular ship that makes regular refuelling stop offs at the nearby star, carrying XXXXXX commodity, and put that into the game dynamics?
Why can't you have a pirate capital ship that you can trade with, that's not linked to an outpost?
There's opportunity to advance the game mechanics, and it seems pretty simple if you asked me.
What ever happened to the hauler? A well fitted one cost about 1/3 mill. One of the best designed and balanced ships in the whole game and now used for maybe three sessions at most. i loved smuggling in a hauler, more than that I loved adventuring in one and keeping and eye out for pirates in their scary eagles
Low-end ships need some love. The Sidewinder is one of my favorite ships, but what can I use it for? Perhaps a bonus to trade CGs for bringing in legal cargo in a Sidewinder/Hauler, and stolen cargo in a Sidewinder/Eagle?
Brilliant!
I like the idea that there could be a "warrant" for Bounty Hunters, issued by pirate factions.. so the Bounty Hunters themselves, become the hunted.
I like the idea that there could be a "warrant" for Bounty Hunters, issued by pirate factions.. so the Bounty Hunters themselves, become the hunted.
No, you are being too extreme. With things as they are, you can use hatch breakers or shoot cargo hatch to get some goods. Its only greed or griefing that is going to push people into solo really. Grabbing a few tons with the aforementioned methods and letting them go (assuming they don't choose to drop themselves) works ok.
First; These are my personal opinions so don't get the pitch fork out yet.
There still needs to be a real penalty for murdering other players. I propose that instead of the 5000CR bounty the player gets for each murder, their bounty should be 1% of the cost of the ship they just destroyed. If a pirate murders a trader in a Type-9, that means that the pirate would get a (roughly) 790.000 bounty on their head for just that kill.
Obviously, this would be instantly exploited however; A pirate could just go around and kill Type-# ships and rack up a multi-million bounty in a matter of hours - and then have a friend kill them and split the entire reward. The counter for this would be that the bounty payout one recieves for killing a player pirate depends on what ship the pirate is flying, lets say, 10 percent.
For instance:
Pirate kills trader. Traders ship was worth 100m CR. Pirate therefore gets a 1m CR bounty.
Pirates ship is worth 1 million CR: BH kills the pirate. Since the pirates ship is worth 1 million CR, and the bounty payout is 10% of that ships value, the payout would therefore be 100k CR. The pirate now has a 900k bounty. Days later, the pirates is flying a ship worth 200k CR: Another BH kills the pirate and based on the cost of the pirates ship, the BH receives 20k CR. The Pirates bounty is now 880k CR.
A pirate in a Sidewinder does not give a bounty payout.
This means that a pirate can not exploit his or her own bounty by having a friend repeatedly killing them, because they would lose money every time.
With that said, I'm really tired and my math might be way off. Maybe the bounty payout needs to be less then the insurance cost for this be un-exploitedable, but you get the idea.
______________
To fix the pirating profession FD needs to fix all the professions. There is currently hardly any Risk Vs Reward (RVR) for any of the professions - including pirates. The Fun Vs Reward (FVR) however is fairly accurate (except for explorers). I suggest following changes to the game.
1) First we must take the populated space and sort it in categories depending on security. These zones should be Safe (high security) Unsafe (low Security) and Lawless (no Security). Imagine an onion cut in half; the core of the onion are the Safe systems. These are the core systems of each faction. These systems are surrounded by a layer (middle layers of the onion) of Unsafe systems belonging to the factions. These are the systems bordering another factions Unsafe systems. Enveloping both the Safe and Unsafe systems are Lawless systems (the outer layer of the onion).
Now we can define what each security status provides and don't provide.
Safe Systems:
A) Boasting the fastest and strongest police responses, pilots are more safer here than anywhere else. The consequence of this however is that the presence of NPC Pirates are lower, making NPC-bounty hunting not as viable. Player Pirates will have a hard time making a successful pirating career in these systems as well.
B) These systems features stations ranging from the smallest outposts to the largest stations and populations in the hundreds of millions or billions. Most stations/economies are High Tech and Industrial, Tourism and some Agricultural. Trading man-made goods between Safe Systems nets you only a small margin of profit.
C) You can find all faction-legal commodities in these systems, and they sell all types of ships and modules. Since these systems have a large infrastructure in place already they can (and have) enforced the strict laws of their faction, making the black market a rather big presence here. These systems demand metal and minerals, and supply man-made goods.
D) Because these systems have been colonized for so long their asteroid belts have been mined out of their most precious minerals and metals long ago. The result is they have a high demand on all types of metals except for the most common and cheapest ones.
Unsafe Systems
A) Mediocre to low strength and speed of response by law enforcements due to being outlying systems. NPC pirates are running fairly wild here making NPC-bounty hunting a good way for players to make money. Player Pirates can do their thing here without being too worried about NPC Police. Because of this, traders are vulnerable.
B) These systems features smaller to medium outposts and stations. Most stations/economies are Extraction, Refinery, Terraforming and some Agricultural. Trading minerals and metals between Unsafe Systems net you only a small margin of profit. These stations only sell some of the ships and modules; mostly the lower rated ones.
C)Man-made commodities are more scarce than in Safe Systems, but they sell all the different types of metals and minerals. These systems demand man-made commodities and supply metals and minerals. Because of the small presence of law enforcement, all laws are not followed and as a result, not all commodities that are illegal in Safe systems are illegal in Unsafe systems, which gives the black market a smaller presence (and gives smugglers somethings to transport to Safe Systems).
D) These systems have not been exploited as much as Safe systems. They have alot of good resources in their asteroids (meaning many good RES-points for NPC-bounty hunting). NPC pirates prowl these belts looking for miners.
Lawless systems
These are basicly the unexplored/unpopulated systems. They should mostly have enviromental dangers I guess? I've never explored so maybe an explorer should come up with an idea.
What this creates is a clear supply/demand between Safe and Unsafe systems.
1) Traders: To make the most money, they need to venture out in Unsafe systems and bring supplies demanded by Safe systems. They purchase commodities there that Unsafe systems needs. Traders can trade stay in Safe Systems if they want, but the profit margins will be a lot lower since all stations demands and supplies similar things.
2) Bounty hunters need to venture out to Unsafe systems to make the most money bounty hunting NPC Pirates. They also work as a deterrence to player pirates looking for traders to raid. Bounty hunters can also stay in Safe systems if they want, but the lower spawn count there means that they won't make as much money.
3) Pirates will have to try and catch traders in Unsafe systems, since they will have a much harder time in Safe systems to do so. They need to be careful however that player bounty hunters won't come for the assistance of the trader. Since Unsafe systems only sell some of the ships and modules, they need to manage their bounty and thus, try not to kill other traders (if they want to be able to access high quality weapons and ships that is). Since there is a clear supply/demand pirates should not have a hard time finding targets (both other players but also NPC traders).
3) Smugglers can find all the illegal things in Unsafe systems and sell them in Safe systems. Because the strong law enforcement presence in Safe systems however, they need to be careful.
Risk Vs Reward and Fun Vs Reward
- Trading and mining are the most boring (or peaceful, depending on how you look at it) professions and should be highly profitable since the fun factor is fairly low. Since they need to go to Unsafe systems regularly they are more prone to be attacked by other player and NPC pirates.
- Exploration and smuggling should be the next most profitable professions. Exploration because you're basically playing Solo Mode in Open Play (again, fun vs reward factor) and Smuggling because risk vs reward factor.
- Pirating and Bounty hunting should be equally profiting. These are considered the most fun aspect of the game I'd dare say and thus should have the lowest income (but not as low as today). Pirates will have plenty of targets since most defenseless players (miners and traders) will buy/sell and mine in Unsafe systems to take back to Safe systems. Bounty hunters will have plenty of both player pirates and NPC pirates to hunt.
There still needs to be a real penalty for murdering other players. I propose that instead of the 5000CR bounty the player gets for each murder, their bounty should be 1% of the cost of the ship they just destroyed. If a pirate murders a trader in a Type-9, that means that the pirate would get a (roughly) 790.000 bounty on their head for just that kill.
Obviously, this would be instantly exploited however; A pirate could just go around and kill Type-# ships and rack up a multi-million bounty in a matter of hours - and then have a friend kill them and split the entire reward. The counter for this would be that the bounty payout one recieves for killing a player pirate depends on what ship the pirate is flying, lets say, 10 percent.
For instance:
Pirate kills trader. Traders ship was worth 100m CR. Pirate therefore gets a 1m CR bounty.
Pirates ship is worth 1 million CR: BH kills the pirate. Since the pirates ship is worth 1 million CR, and the bounty payout is 10% of that ships value, the payout would therefore be 100k CR. The pirate now has a 900k bounty. Days later, the pirates is flying a ship worth 200k CR: Another BH kills the pirate and based on the cost of the pirates ship, the BH receives 20k CR. The Pirates bounty is now 880k CR.
A pirate in a Sidewinder does not give a bounty payout.
This means that a pirate can not exploit his or her own bounty by having a friend repeatedly killing them, because they would lose money every time.
With that said, I'm really tired and my math might be way off. Maybe the bounty payout needs to be less then the insurance cost for this be un-exploitedable, but you get the idea.
______________
To fix the pirating profession FD needs to fix all the professions. There is currently hardly any Risk Vs Reward (RVR) for any of the professions - including pirates. The Fun Vs Reward (FVR) however is fairly accurate (except for explorers). I suggest following changes to the game.
1) First we must take the populated space and sort it in categories depending on security. These zones should be Safe (high security) Unsafe (low Security) and Lawless (no Security). Imagine an onion cut in half; the core of the onion are the Safe systems. These are the core systems of each faction. These systems are surrounded by a layer (middle layers of the onion) of Unsafe systems belonging to the factions. These are the systems bordering another factions Unsafe systems. Enveloping both the Safe and Unsafe systems are Lawless systems (the outer layer of the onion).
Now we can define what each security status provides and don't provide.
Safe Systems:
A) Boasting the fastest and strongest police responses, pilots are more safer here than anywhere else. The consequence of this however is that the presence of NPC Pirates are lower, making NPC-bounty hunting not as viable. Player Pirates will have a hard time making a successful pirating career in these systems as well.
B) These systems features stations ranging from the smallest outposts to the largest stations and populations in the hundreds of millions or billions. Most stations/economies are High Tech and Industrial, Tourism and some Agricultural. Trading man-made goods between Safe Systems nets you only a small margin of profit.
C) You can find all faction-legal commodities in these systems, and they sell all types of ships and modules. Since these systems have a large infrastructure in place already they can (and have) enforced the strict laws of their faction, making the black market a rather big presence here. These systems demand metal and minerals, and supply man-made goods.
D) Because these systems have been colonized for so long their asteroid belts have been mined out of their most precious minerals and metals long ago. The result is they have a high demand on all types of metals except for the most common and cheapest ones.
Unsafe Systems
A) Mediocre to low strength and speed of response by law enforcements due to being outlying systems. NPC pirates are running fairly wild here making NPC-bounty hunting a good way for players to make money. Player Pirates can do their thing here without being too worried about NPC Police. Because of this, traders are vulnerable.
B) These systems features smaller to medium outposts and stations. Most stations/economies are Extraction, Refinery, Terraforming and some Agricultural. Trading minerals and metals between Unsafe Systems net you only a small margin of profit. These stations only sell some of the ships and modules; mostly the lower rated ones.
C)Man-made commodities are more scarce than in Safe Systems, but they sell all the different types of metals and minerals. These systems demand man-made commodities and supply metals and minerals. Because of the small presence of law enforcement, all laws are not followed and as a result, not all commodities that are illegal in Safe systems are illegal in Unsafe systems, which gives the black market a smaller presence (and gives smugglers somethings to transport to Safe Systems).
D) These systems have not been exploited as much as Safe systems. They have alot of good resources in their asteroids (meaning many good RES-points for NPC-bounty hunting). NPC pirates prowl these belts looking for miners.
Lawless systems
These are basicly the unexplored/unpopulated systems. They should mostly have enviromental dangers I guess? I've never explored so maybe an explorer should come up with an idea.
What this creates is a clear supply/demand between Safe and Unsafe systems.
1) Traders: To make the most money, they need to venture out in Unsafe systems and bring supplies demanded by Safe systems. They purchase commodities there that Unsafe systems needs. Traders can trade stay in Safe Systems if they want, but the profit margins will be a lot lower since all stations demands and supplies similar things.
2) Bounty hunters need to venture out to Unsafe systems to make the most money bounty hunting NPC Pirates. They also work as a deterrence to player pirates looking for traders to raid. Bounty hunters can also stay in Safe systems if they want, but the lower spawn count there means that they won't make as much money.
3) Pirates will have to try and catch traders in Unsafe systems, since they will have a much harder time in Safe systems to do so. They need to be careful however that player bounty hunters won't come for the assistance of the trader. Since Unsafe systems only sell some of the ships and modules, they need to manage their bounty and thus, try not to kill other traders (if they want to be able to access high quality weapons and ships that is). Since there is a clear supply/demand pirates should not have a hard time finding targets (both other players but also NPC traders).
3) Smugglers can find all the illegal things in Unsafe systems and sell them in Safe systems. Because the strong law enforcement presence in Safe systems however, they need to be careful.
Risk Vs Reward and Fun Vs Reward
- Trading and mining are the most boring (or peaceful, depending on how you look at it) professions and should be highly profitable since the fun factor is fairly low. Since they need to go to Unsafe systems regularly they are more prone to be attacked by other player and NPC pirates.
- Exploration and smuggling should be the next most profitable professions. Exploration because you're basically playing Solo Mode in Open Play (again, fun vs reward factor) and Smuggling because risk vs reward factor.
- Pirating and Bounty hunting should be equally profiting. These are considered the most fun aspect of the game I'd dare say and thus should have the lowest income (but not as low as today). Pirates will have plenty of targets since most defenseless players (miners and traders) will buy/sell and mine in Unsafe systems to take back to Safe systems. Bounty hunters will have plenty of both player pirates and NPC pirates to hunt.
Last edited:
...and the pro smugglers edge was instantly lost with this decision. I'd like to think the black markets would only show up on the galaxy map if you yourself had found it at the station/outpost, but i gather everyone can see all of them.
I like the Fun vs Reward concept. I think there is also a progression and learning curve element to consider as I think Cmdrs have to progress through several of the identified professions. I don't think a noob Cmdr would be able to jump straight into a pirate role via a Sidey?
I certainly had to do a lot of 'low fun' trading as you put it when I started, and i've yet to try mining as i'm too busy with other tasks to learn a completely new trade and evaluate its fun factor. Equally, I don't feel I have the combat skills yet to become pirate captain and it's something to work towards.
I think that is the wrong way to look at the problem. Instead of increasing the reward for low fun professions and calling it good, they should work on increasing the fun of said professions.
Good post, a lot of your ideas make sense to me. No major points of disagreement at any rate. +1
Please clarify; Ship worth and bounty payout, would that include module cost as well? I hope it would.
Last edited: