The New Guilds and Player Owned Stations Discussion Thread.

[Robert Maynard]

So how about Robert's suggestion of a new Open-Guild mode then? So current Open is unaffected but all you guildies would be in a new Open mode with all the other guilds - would that work for you?

I can't take the credit for that suggestion - it has been proposed a number of times by a number of participants in the many and varied threads on this topic....

 

[Commander Debic]

seriously? so you honestly believe the majority in this thread would be happy if FD made better chat tools in private groups and that is that? if so you will get no argument from me, after all I already am a member of Mobius so by your definition I am already in a guild.... however....... we have already seen in this thread, better comms in a private group is NOT what most of the guild people want.

hell if it is, then there is a massive missunderstanding here as I have no issue with that at all.

if "better comms in private group" was an option I would have voted for it myself!.

Have to agree Mike, I too would have voted positive if that had been the question.
Anyway enough of this drivel back to my group play.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Which is why I find it telling the 3rd option doesn't have more votes. I suspect there are just as many players who support the 3rd option as the 1st, but the advertising campaign on reddit has swamped this option from the discussion. All the while this is where the common ground lies.

Disclaimer: note how I underlined "advertising campaign"? It means I am not making any judgements on reddit, but I'm pointing to an event on reddit. In no way, shape or form am I labeling the fine people of reddit who are all rather handsome, nice, thoughtful and well-smelling people ... oh wait, now I'm still labeling. Oh never mind.

 

[M00ka]

Because I use an oculus. Because not everyone has 3 monitors. Do I really need to go on?

And a headset for IRC? A text chat client? Really???

sorry. Not aimed at you mooka but.... just to be a total prat of a pedant.... Its a Rift... or an Oculus Rift.

you do not call a PS4 a "Sony"

(PS I too use a rift, a great device and can make chatting in the game a bit of a pita!) but better chat is NOT guild support.

.
Apology not required Mad Mike, I was merely quoting directly from a Commander who has an Oculus Rift, I can't help it if he described it incorrectly

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

You solo advocates really don't see your own behaviour do you?

What has solo advocate got to do with anything? For the record you probably count me in that pot too, not sure why tho, internet permitting Solo is not my preferred choice. IME the majority of what i am assuming you are calling the "solo Advocates" are actually what I see as the advocates of making the game we were sold before release.

My main gripe outside of that premise is actually that there seems to be a disagreement with what a guild actually is on here. (I personally do not consider chat tools in a private group like mobius to be the guild content people are asking for..... IF they are then you would get no argument from me... bring it on, but I see guild content to be more the features which have kept me away from a large number of games that i did not buy because of them. I DID buy ED, partly because of DBs statement of feeling they are a bad fit for ED)

23:29 he also says that they are looking at adding player owned shops/stations, done right 'in time'. Something that he wants to happen.

indeed but there was not an option to vote for without the guilds, so OP forced anyone who may want that to vote for guilds. its a bit like having a vote do you want a 4 day working week with full pay and pay £10 for a pint of beer and if people vote for it then arguing "the people have spoken, they want to pay £10 for a pint of beer" (although to be clear.... personally player owned stations is something with some mileage, and indeed is in the DDA, but I believe we are talking small hangars possibly in hollowed out asteroids here, rather than giant super structures with an economy etc so again, it is something which i think different people have different ideas about what contitutes a player own station.... much like there is currently no agreement it seems about what is a guild..

The problem with that is its fear based. None of the good guild stuff can happen because the bad Guilds may appear too. I would take that chance and deal with it if it arrives. I find it dynamic anyway - I think it makes planning your trade route interesting if you have to navigate around bad territories.

and again with your crappery! you on 1 hand make accusations of "solo players" being offensive and then on the other call people who disagree with you cowards. it has nothing to do with fear and everything to do with changing the product from the one i bought and enjoy into something different that I do not. It has nothing to do with fear FGS... and you have the cheek to call others hypocrites.

I would not buy Eve and demand guild content to go
I would not buy iracing and demand takedowns and flashbacks
hell I would not even buy Starwars Battle front and demand a 1 player story - even though it is something I would dearly love.

research a product, and if you like it buy it.... and if not dont. Simples. ED was sold as a game with private groups and AI controlled factions but not guilds..... YES I think improving chat in private groups would be a good thing - and if some of the people here are genuine that is all they want even though they voted for guilds... but that is NOT the same as guilds.

I

So you chose a bad guild and now you think that is the only way they can be. Have you ever thought that maybe characterizing all guilds based on one experience is probably not a good way to go? Would is be ok to characterize all black people based on one experience? Why is this any different?

And if you don't like guilds don't join one. We have not suggested they be mandatory.

The snag is... how many maggots would you need to find in your otherwise perfect bowl of rice to ruin your meal? For me it is only 1!. and IF guilds became a thing in ED, am sorry but in open if you did not join one you would be at a severe disadvantage. ED is at its heart a game which has to keep the lone wolf as a valid playstyle. Wings makes it harder, but still do-able but I believe guild content would take it too far. Now some may call me a coward for that, others have intimated I am a liar and others have said it can never happen in ED.... however I call on that because we already have some groups trying to do just that... but right now it takes effort, and that effort alone reduces its effectivness.

Guilds are exactly the reason why for ME SC will never hold a candle to ED. (I still backed it, mainly for S42 - but you do not see me over there demanding that guilds have to go to support the lone wolf)

Then play solo and none of this will be a concern for you.

and there we have it... it seems despite some of your posts being fairly sensible this is the true colours... if a player does not want to guild up play solo. Great solution. thanks!.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

double post

 

[Cmdr Corran Antilles]

But fake Elite CR is nowhere near as important as ego and self-esteem, particularly to people who "live" online.

You would inevitably get players owning stations that they'd only let their guild/clan members dock at. You'd even get guilds shooting up ships that they don't recognize because "this place is ours lololol!". Look at what was going on at Leesti with the rammers, then actually add in game support for that! Particularly if someone arrives low on fuel.

Sorry, but this is a terrible idea.

Yes you will get some jerks who will be abusive. You get people like that now. That won't change. You can take steps to mitigate it. But with that attitude FD should never make a game because some people might be jerks...that is a terrible way to run a company. Find ways to deal with them instead of being so paralyzed by fear of bad behavior you do nothing.

 

[Cmdr Corran Antilles]

What has solo advocate got to do with anything? For the record you probably count me in that pot too, not sure why tho, internet permitting Solo is not my preferred choice. IME the majority of what i am assuming you are calling the "solo Advocates" are actually what I see as the advocates of making the game we were sold before release.

My main gripe outside of that premise is actually that there seems to be a disagreement with what a guild actually is on here. (I personally do not consider chat tools in a private group like mobius to be the guild content people are asking for..... IF they are then you would get no argument from me... bring it on, but I see guild content to be more the features which have kept me away from a large number of games that i did not buy because of them. I DID buy ED, partly because of DBs statement of feeling they are a bad fit for ED)



indeed but there was not an option to vote for without the guilds, so OP forced anyone who may want that to vote for guilds. its a bit like having a vote do you want a 4 day working week with full pay and pay £10 for a pint of beer and if people vote for it then arguing "the people have spoken, they want to pay £10 for a pint of beer" (although to be clear.... personally player owned stations is something with some mileage, and indeed is in the DDA, but I believe we are talking small hangars possibly in hollowed out asteroids here, rather than giant super structures with an economy etc so again, it is something which i think different people have different ideas about what contitutes a player own station.... much like there is currently no agreement it seems about what is a guild..



and again with your crappery! you on 1 hand make accusations of "solo players" being offensive and then on the other call people who disagree with you cowards. it has nothing to do with fear and everything to do with changing the product from the one i bought and enjoy into something different that I do not. It has nothing to do with fear FGS... and you have the cheek to call others hypocrites.

I would not buy Eve and demand guild content to go
I would not buy iracing and demand takedowns and flashbacks
hell I would not even buy Starwars Battle front and demand a 1 player story - even though it is something I would dearly love.

research a product, and if you like it buy it.... and if not dont. Simples. ED was sold as a game with private groups and AI controlled factions but not guilds..... YES I think improving chat in private groups would be a good thing - and if some of the people here are genuine that is all they want even though they voted for guilds... but that is NOT the same as guilds.



The snag is... how many maggots would you need to find in your otherwise perfect bowl of rice to ruin your meal? For me it is only 1!. and IF guilds became a thing in ED, am sorry but in open if you did not join one you would be at a severe disadvantage. ED is at its heart a game which has to keep the lone wolf as a valid playstyle. Wings makes it harder, but still do-able but I believe guild content would take it too far. Now some may call me a coward for that, others have intimated I am a liar and others have said it can never happen in ED.... however I call on that because we already have some groups trying to do just that... but right now it takes effort, and that effort alone reduces its effectivness.

Guilds are exactly the reason why for ME SC will never hold a candle to ED. (I still backed it, mainly for S42 - but you do not see me over there demanding that guilds have to go to support the lone wolf)

What do you think guild content is?

Every game I have played with guilds had the following core things
A list of members.
A list of who was online
A guild chat channel
A guild message of the day.

Optional things I have seen are
A guild bank
A guild ship
Guild territory
Guild leveling with benefits
Guild tabards
officers chat channel
Guild housing

To me private groups are guilds..They basically do the same thing. But at the moment they are pretty useless as you can't see who is online unless you enter everybody into your friends list. Which can be very daunting in some groups. You can't talk with members of your group as a group only as individuals. So that group thing is pretty useless. I am told I can play in group mode with my friends. Problem is you can't actually find them in game. You have to use some third party tool. Which makes groups pretty useless.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

Essentially what we are asking for then is in game irc. Not a bad thing at all.

You see my Captain's Log application?

I can quite easily write an overlay-based IRC application for you. Quite easily. Sure, it's not in-game per se, but it
would effectively be the same.

 

[Cmdr Corran Antilles]

There you go again. You are putting energy into guild owned stations with one hand. Then you make a wild statement about just wanting better Comm's. It's all over the place. I've said many times: Comm's = Good, Stations = Bad. I've seen many posters here accepting better COmm's. That could be an easy win, but the next thing you know it's all about stations again. It sounds like you may be able to back factions. Let's just see what FD has. Maybe you can adopt a station as a home. But, a Group wouldn't own it.

Why is it one is not allowed to discuss things that could be interesting while the core important thing you want is better comms?

Better comms is vital. Guild station would be interesting IF implemented correctly. With would require a lot of thought and hammering out to resolve and prevent possible problems.

You guys overreact to everything and everything is going to be a disaster if we allow people to have better communication and discuss the possibility of a guild station...you act like nothing can solve these problems...

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

What do you think guild content is?

Every game I have played with guilds had the following core things
A list of members.
A list of who was online
A guild chat channel
A guild message of the day.

Optional things I have seen are
A guild bank
A guild ship
Guild territory
Guild leveling with benefits
Guild tabards
officers chat channel
Guild housing
.

well personally I do not find your core things too obnoxious but imo many here are demanding the "optional" things you list. I I feel all your optional things would be a betrayal of the game i was sold if they came in.

Even then however there is a bit of a disconnect in place.. SHOULD a player be able to converse with a guild member is he is at Sol and the guild member is at SagA? Then I think it comes down to do you want ED to be a more arcadey product that does not consider such limits OR do you want it to maintain feasibly realistic limitations? (in a universe where FTL and Hyperspace travel is possible)

Clearly ED is not a full on Sim, so it is a sliding scale at where you personally are happy to see the compromises in the name of entertainment.

 

[Cmdr Corran Antilles]

.
Then play GROUPS and none of this will be a concern for you

Except for these things we are asking for are kind of needed to make the existing groups actually useful. Cause if I log in in group mode but have no way of telling if my friends are online or talk to them it kind of defeats having a group mode doesn't it? And don't tell me to just use a 3rd party tool. The game should be use able in every mode with out using a third party tool.

 

[VladtheImpaler]

well personally I do not find your core things too obnoxious but imo many here are demanding the "optional" things you list.

Even then however there is a bit of a disconnect in place.. SHOULD a player be able to converse with a guild member is he is at Sol and the guild member is at SagA? Then I think it comes down to do you want ED to be a more arcadey product that does not consider such limits OR do you want it to maintain feasibly realistic limitations? (in a universe where FTL and Hyperspace travel is possible)

Clearly ED is not a full on Sim, so it is a sliding scale at where you personally are happy to see the compromises in the name of entertainment.

They already do with teamspeak. Can't you also chat with CMDRs on your friends list, no matter where they are?

 

[Cmdr Corran Antilles]

well personally I do not find your core things too obnoxious but imo many here are demanding the "optional" things you list.

Even then however there is a bit of a disconnect in place.. SHOULD a player be able to converse with a guild member is he is at Sol and the guild member is at SagA? Then I think it comes down to do you want ED to be a more arcadey product that does not consider such limits OR do you want it to maintain feasibly realistic limitations? (in a universe where FTL and Hyperspace travel is possible)

Clearly ED is not a full on Sim, so it is a sliding scale at where you personally are happy to see the compromises in the name of entertainment.

I have yet to see anyone demand the optionals. We have discussed a little bit about guild stations as an idea. But I have seen no demands. On the other hand I have seen a lot of people demanding we get nothing guild related.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

Actually, here's a way to make an IRC client transparent without me having to write anything...

It's Twitch related, but I'm sure it could just be used to just play the game and have an overlay style means of communicating with your fellow 'guild' members. All you'd need to do would be to select an IRC network and create your IRC channel and POW! instant in-group communications.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Twitch/comments/2613n5/how_to_set_up_ingame_chat_overlay_for_single/

Problem solved!

 

[Cmdr Corran Antilles]

They already do with teamspeak. Can't you also chat with CMDRs on your friends list, no matter where they are?

Exactly.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

What do you think guild content is?

[...]

To me private groups are guilds..They basically do the same thing. But at the moment they are pretty useless as you can't see who is online unless you enter everybody into your friends list. Which can be very daunting in some groups. You can't talk with members of your group as a group only as individuals. So that group thing is pretty useless. I am told I can play in group mode with my friends. Problem is you can't actually find them in game. You have to use some third party tool. Which makes groups pretty useless.

See, I can't see many people having too many problems with ingame functionality to organise the friendslist in terms of Casual, Guild, Mode, whatever.

Your first question seems to be pivotal here, and is the main reason for a lot of miscommunication. For some players, player owned content in essential to guilds, for some players being able to have an organised comms is essential for guilds.

Which again is why the reddit influx has obfuscated the debate by pouring a large number of votes into option #1. It overshadows #3. And realistically #3 is where the most potential is.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

I have yet to see anyone demand the optionals. We have discussed a little bit about guild stations as an idea. But I have seen no demands. On the other hand I have seen a lot of people demanding we get nothing guild related.

again, this is a problem with misscommunication with what people consider guild content to be.... I do not consider comms to be guild content, even if comms is a part of a guild.

maybe we need a poll ( ) , with more options - where you can choose more than 1 option (so check yes for X and Y but no for W and Z)

 

[Cmdr Corran Antilles]

See, I can't see many people having too many problems with ingame functionality to organise the friendslist in terms of Casual, Guild, Mode, whatever.

Your first question seems to be pivotal here, and is the main reason for a lot of miscommunication. For some players, player owned content in essential to guilds, for some players being able to have an organised comms is essential for guilds.

Which again is why the reddit influx has obfuscated the debate by pouring a large number of votes into option #1. It overshadows #3. And realistically #3 is where the most potential is.

Odd I have never seen player owned content as required for a guild. And I saw no evidence that any in the guild crowd saw it as required. I saw it discussed as an idea that many find intriguing. But I do not see finding something intriguing and potentially fun as demanding.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

They already do with teamspeak. Can't you also chat with CMDRs on your friends list, no matter where they are?

true... but just becasue a player CAN "cheat" and go beyond what limitations the game may put in in the name of lore does not mean it should be officially condoned imo. (I am not having a go, but imo IF elite lore decided comms should have a finite range, then players using teamspeak are gamign the system in the same way that people using thrudds tool or slopeys tool to find good trade routes does not mean that best trade routes should be auto uploaded into the game**)

**although a personal CMDRs log where you can put your OWN titbits in there is absolutely something we need imo)