Suggestions regarding quitting the game that triggers the 15s timer.

[F1Racer]

Yeah I know, touchy subject right ? Well take an anti-sensitivity pill and see what you think of my thoughts....

Combat logging (or shall we call it combat log-outing ?) was just a case of either switching off the PC, pulling your network cable out or switching off your router. You can still do that of course but no doubt it will be frowned upon.
So FD came up with up with a way to get out of a situation that I assume should be satisfactory for them because they came up with it. So now you can quit the game in the normal fashion but you have a 15s timer in certain scenarios which keeps your ship in play.
I think, no matter what situation you are in, if you use their provided method, then FD can have no complaints or comebacks from it.
How you feel about doing it is another thing but how a human opponent feels is just tough. You will have used a dev-provided method. The frustration for the human opponent(s) is maybe that they didn't you you did it. You can say it is not good sportsmanship or whatever but I would stop short of calling it cheating now because it's a supplied method of leaving the game in such situations by the developers themselves.
Real life situations can crop up also like the front door bell ringing, the phone in the other room ringing or you get caught short.
In those scenarios it is likely that you may have to save/quit using the 15s timer when you don't want to. So it's swings and roundabouts.
You are still putting yourself at risk using the 15s timer so it's not totally unfair.

Now, if I was to suggest what I consider to be improvements on this, I would have 2....

1) If you save/quit and trigger the 15s time then your ship should turn another colour (or shape) on the sensors so your opponent would know that if he intends to take you out, he has 15s to do so.
Maybe even NPC's can be made to react to this.

2) (my preferred option if you dont have to leave the game for legit reasons) Drop the 15s time altogether and have a feature where we can cut the ships engines/power in normal space after dropping out of SC, leaving you essentially floating there on life support. The reason for this would be to cut out your heat signature and drop you off the sensors. Of course you can then only last as long as your air supply (which can be 5-25? minutes). Up to your hunter if he want's to hang around and see where you spring back up.

Thoughts ?

 

[Jason S]

Both option you state mean that the ship will nearly certainly be destroyed, so FD may as well just self destruct it.

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But I agree something should be done about combat logging when in combat.

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Nothing should be done for disconnects when out of combat of course.

 

[Bortas]

2) (my preferred option if you dont have to leave the game for legit reasons) Drop the 15s time altogether and have a feature where we can cut the ships engines/power in normal space after dropping out of SC, leaving you essentially floating there on life support. Thoughts ?

The 15s timer only kicks in when you are under attack. And when you are under attack, a legit reason to leave the game does not exist, because it cannot be verified.

- If you are fighting NPCs just put 4 pips into shields, go and live with the 15 sec timer. They are probably not going to kill you within 15 seconds anyway.
- If you are fighting another commander... bad luck. Either let the phone ring and call back later, or go for it and die.

Exceptions cannot be made, because if that was the case, every combat logger is going to get a lot of sudden phone calls.

 

[F1Racer]

So you don't trust anyone basically. And of course, save/quits then your natural assumption is to assume it was not legit. People are geared to think the worst of others in gaming.
I don't agree with very much of anything you said there. Just because you cannot verify the reason, doesn't mean it's not legit. Of course legit reasons exist. The difference is no legit reason is acceptable to the guy on the other end because he wants to destroy the guy.

Let the phone ring ? Same with the front door ? Sometimes real life is more important than the game. There are no death certainties either.
Exceptions cannot be made ? By who, you ?
The 15s timer already exists as a game mechanic so these sudden phone calls you think everyone will get is just mistrust on your part.
Granted most won't be legit but as the 15s timer is not there it must be an acceptable exit strategy to FD so until a better system is found, it will just have to be dealt with. You can't stop a person using it so I was just looking for ways to improve it somehow.

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Both option you state mean that the ship will nearly certainly be destroyed, so FD may as well just self destruct it.

Option 2 is a near certain destruction for the ship ? How so ?

 

[Crimson Kaim]

I don't really understand the OP but Ima just share my opinion about how combat logging should work.

You can log out any time you want but if attacked, add a 15 second time (or more) tha trefreshes every time this ship is attacked in some way. The ship will stay in the galaxy during that timer even though the player is no longer present anymore. Upon ship destruction, the player experiences the insurance screen when he jumps in again.

 

[F1Racer]

I don't really understand the OP but Ima just share my opinion about how combat logging should work.

You can log out any time you want but if attacked, add a 15 second time (or more) tha trefreshes every time this ship is attacked in some way. The ship will stay in the galaxy during that timer even though the player is no longer present anymore. Upon ship destruction, the player experiences the insurance screen when he jumps in again.

Maybe I'm misreading the dynamics of the save/quit when the 15s timer kicks in. I'm not concerned with the feelings of the guy on the other end who is engaging with me (using myself as an example even though this has not affected me thus far). If he wants to be pee'd off about it that's his business.
Just trying to come up with a more elegant solution or refine the current one that FD have implemented.
There must be a reason they came up with 15s and it must have been one that is acceptable to them in terms of "if you have to do it, then you do it via this criteria and risk 15s in play". If the player feels bad about it because he has had to go or felt that he wimped out, then that's something he has to deal with.
Fact is the 15s timer is now there and if someone uses it legitimately or not, FD really cannot complain as it is a dynamic they themselves implemented.

Whats a bit unfair is say, here where I am, we have had over the last 4-5 months regular power cuts. Basically through incompetence of the electricity dept. I would hate to know that when the power came back if I was in combat that my ship was destroyed because I couldn't be there to defend myself or destroy the other guy. That could happen if I'm stranded in play for 15s. But I suppose that's just something you have to accept because of combat loggers forcing that system to be implemented.
It has happened many times where I'm in a combat zone, drilling into a bigger ship and the power cuts. It's so freaking annoying. Never happened in Pvp thus far though. But same scenario if connection drops which has happened from time to time and I'm cutting into a ship wondering why nothing is happening.

Anyway.... enough rambling. Just wanted to put some ideas out there.

 

[Bernie65]

Guys, please consider that not everyone can dedicate unlimited or uninterrupted time gaming. A lot of people have a real life. I got called from my kids, wife, customers, colleagues quite frequently - until deep in the night. The damned cat of my kids jumps on me and bites my ear. And sometimes I have to go to washroom, because I like to drink beer. ...Urgently!
So there should be a graceful way to leave the game without getting confronted with either being accused of being a cowardly combat logger or the insurance screen.
I for myself thinks that the 15 second delay is fine as it is.

 

[Mitorious]

Well, for those of us who were planning on the game being single player and only play solo I'd love the option to just insta-quit. I've combat logged numerous times being chased by NPC authority ships when one of my little ones has started screaming in the next room.
I'm not going to start complaining that the game ended up being multi-player only but I don't see why I can't quit or pause whenever I want. How am I hurting anybody?

 

[Evil]

Yeah I don't have a problem with the 15 sec timer, if someone's got to go they got to go. The only thing that needs consideration, is the re-occurrence of players logging out during combat, and then address those reasons/issues.

 

[killminster]

As others have said a logout timer when you're in combat seems like an easy an logical solution. Make it long enough that by doing it you guarantee you lose the fight and keep the penalties for dying the same.

The go to "what if" weasel words about dodgy internet, cats etc. all smell of , and if you are that unlucky your IT equipment fails whatever the reason why shouldn't it cost you? If a part of your virtual spaceship were to break at the wrong moment the results could be fatal, why not the machine you are running the virtual spaceship on as well? It might spur some people on to sort out the problem.

What I posted in the other thread about the same thing.

Also with regard to

Real life situations can crop up also like the front door bell ringing, the phone in the other room ringing or you get caught short.

or

A lot of people have a real life. I got called from my kids, wife, customers, colleagues quite frequently - until deep in the night. The damned cat of my kids jumps on me and bites my ear. And sometimes I have to go to washroom, because I like to drink beer. ...Urgently!

Is a game more important than your family or livelihood? No: choice made, you lose the fight. Also your bladder control isn't my concern if I'm in a dogfight with you, either pee your pants and play or use the head and lose (Or maybe be more strategic with your drinking and toilet breaks).

 

[F1Racer]

What I love is the total lack of compassion. Like peoples lives should revolve around the game and the person they are in combat with
Well sorry, but if I'm in combat and whether I'm winning or not, if I need to stop for whatever legit reason, I won't hesitate to do so.
And of course I will try to do so in a way that doesn't guarantee me a loss of my ship. It's a hollow victory for the other person anyway and I'm not going to hang on just to pander to their ego.

 

[Ari Ben Zayn]

Lookie here: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=105778

For clarity’s sake, “combat logging” is when a Commander ungracefully exits the game (e.g. using ALT + F4 then shutting down the game process) to avoid defeat, destruction and damage.

I'd say that clears things up. Haven't found anything newer from FD on that topic so I guess floating in space for 15s being unabled to maneveur while logging out is totally okay during combat. Of course the angry PvP-Man will probably still open a ticket on you.

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

Now, if I was to suggest what I consider to be improvements on this, I would have 2....

1) If you save/quit and trigger the 15s time then your ship should turn another colour (or shape) on the sensors so your opponent would know that if he intends to take you out, he has 15s to do so.
Maybe even NPC's can be made to react to this.

2) (my preferred option if you dont have to leave the game for legit reasons) Drop the 15s time altogether and have a feature where we can cut the ships engines/power in normal space after dropping out of SC, leaving you essentially floating there on life support. The reason for this would be to cut out your heat signature and drop you off the sensors. Of course you can then only last as long as your air supply (which can be 5-25? minutes). Up to your hunter if he want's to hang around and see where you spring back up.

Thoughts ?

1) would guarantee that the trader is dead by the end, but would at least let a pirate do something about it.

2) is not possible with the current game p2p architecture. That would require constant servers to even be possible.

The main problem with the log out timer, is the same problem with most things in the game. It's extremely punishing to pirates, but barely effects flat out killers. The 15 second log out timers is way too short to allow for piracy. It only kicks in when in combat with the trader, most pirates try to avoid that as long as possible. It's shorter than the time it takes for limpets to even work, let alone fly to the target, and for all the cargo to drop out.

Guys, please consider that not everyone can dedicate unlimited or uninterrupted time gaming. A lot of people have a real life. I got called from my kids, wife, customers, colleagues quite frequently - until deep in the night. The damned cat of my kids jumps on me and bites my ear. And sometimes I have to go to washroom, because I like to drink beer. ...Urgently!
So there should be a graceful way to leave the game without getting confronted with either being accused of being a cowardly combat logger or the insurance screen.
I for myself thinks that the 15 second delay is fine as it is.

I can definitely respect that, if it was only used that way it wouldn't be a problem. The problem is people often abuse it as a get out of jail free card. Which i'm sure the devs did not intend.

 

[F1Racer]

The main problem with the log out timer, is the same problem with most things in the game. It's extremely punishing to pirates, but barely effects flat out killers. The 15 second log out timers is way too short to allow for piracy. It only kicks in when in combat with the trader, most pirates try to avoid that as long as possible. It's shorter than the time it takes for limpets to even work, let alone fly to the target, and for all the cargo to drop out.

I think the over-riding issue here is that if Player A and Player B are in combat (it doesn't have to be piracy with a trader), and Player B needs to legitimately leave thus triggering the 15s timer, Player A thinks he should be awarded the kill regardless as if it was earned - even if he was losing in combat. So the 15s trigger becomes a forfeit.
Meaning if Player B has a legit reason for stopping play, he must therefore always sacrifice his ship and costs.
That's the bit I don't agree with. So maybe 15s is fair. In that it says to player A, if you can finish him in 15s then the kill is yours, if not, there's next time with someone else. So maybe the 15s shouldn't be fixed and should be based on size and strength of ship. For example you don't need 15s to kill a sidewinder or an eagle. But a well shielded Anaconda or Python etc... Maybe the logout time should be set based on the ship strength and offering a roughly 50/50 change of either Player A getting the kill or Player B to survive with severe damage.

 

[Bortas]

And of course, save/quits then your natural assumption is to assume it was not legit. People are geared to think the worst of others in gaming.

And most of the time, they are right, sadly.

I don't agree with very much of anything you said there. Just because you cannot verify the reason, doesn't mean it's not legit. Of course legit reasons exist. The difference is no legit reason is acceptable to the guy on the other end because he wants to destroy the guy.

I have seen a lot of combat loggers. Interestingly all cases of combat logging I witnessed happend, when the other player was losing. I have never seen a player combat log, who was winning. Just a coincidence, right? I bet all the combat loggers were just called by their children or had the doorbell ring just in the moment, I was about to destroy them.

Let the phone ring ? Same with the front door ? Sometimes real life is more important than the game.

Nobody forces you to stay. Feel free to go to the phone, front door or whatever, while in combat. Just accept you have to pay the insurance, if you do so. If it's so important it can't wait 20 seconds it takes to hyperjump and log off in safety, a few units of game-money shouldn't matter.

The 15s timer already exists as a game mechanic so these sudden phone calls you think everyone will get is just mistrust on your part.

I'm more or less fine with the 15s timer, I was talking about your second proposal (the one I quoted) of adding a legit way to get out of combat instantly.

 

[Ving]

The timer is fine as it is.

The problem is bad game design, and the complete imbalance between risk/reward, insurance costs etc. Changing the timer is like trying to put a band-aid on a broken leg.

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

I think the over-riding issue here is that if Player A and Player B are in combat (it doesn't have to be piracy with a trader), and Player B needs to legitimately leave thus triggering the 15s timer, Player A thinks he should be awarded the kill regardless as if it was earned - even if he was losing in combat. So the 15s trigger becomes a forfeit.
Meaning if Player B has a legit reason for stopping play, he must therefore always sacrifice his ship and costs.
That's the bit I don't agree with. So maybe 15s is fair. In that it says to player A, if you can finish him in 15s then the kill is yours, if not, there's next time with someone else. So maybe the 15s shouldn't be fixed and should be based on size and strength of ship. For example you don't need 15s to kill a sidewinder or an eagle. But a well shielded Anaconda or Python etc... Maybe the logout time should be set based on the ship strength and offering a roughly 50/50 change of either Player A getting the kill or Player B to survive with severe damage.

I understand what you're saying, just because the other person quit, doesnt mean you would have necessarily killed him. You however missed my point, or at least you didn't address it. What if player A's goal isn't to kill, but to steal cargo? It's harder and more time consuming to steal cargo than it is to just flat out kill the trader. Just because you balance it around killing someone, doesn't mean its fair for stealing cargo. If you balance it around stealing cargo, it becomes too easy for killing. That's the catch 22.

 

[Skillet]

I combat log in group play when my L9 is set upon by an Elite Conda, Python, or Clipper. Smaller ships I fight or run. I found out (several times) the hard way that a 400cr reward for victory was not worth the 14,000,000 Ins/cargo loss.

 

[killminster]

What I love is the total lack of compassion. Like peoples lives should revolve around the game and the person they are in combat with

Haha yeah that's about right Because if I'm in a fight and suddenly something more important happens and I have to kiss an insurance payment goodbye I don't expect any compassion or understanding from the other player.

I think the over-riding issue here is that if Player A and Player B are in combat (it doesn't have to be piracy with a trader), and Player B needs to legitimately leave thus triggering the 15s timer, Player A thinks he should be awarded the kill regardless as if it was earned - even if he was losing in combat. So the 15s trigger becomes a forfeit.

Meaning if Player B has a legit reason for stopping play, he must therefore always sacrifice his ship and costs.

The idea of a "legit" reason for stopping play is irrelevant and frankly a cop out used (for the most part) by cheats. As others have mentioned:

I have seen a lot of combat loggers. Interestingly all cases of combat logging I witnessed happend, when the other player was losing. I have never seen a player combat log, who was winning. Just a coincidence, right? I bet all the combat loggers were just called by their children or had the doorbell ring just in the moment, I was about to destroy them.

The log off occurs 99.9999999999999% of the time when that player is losing. PVP competitive type doesn't/shouldn't care about your reasons, legit or otherwise. If you're committed to a fight then yeah, if you don't see it through to its conclusion forfeit is fair, regardless of the balance of the battle at the time you quit.

It's a hollow victory for the other person anyway and I'm not going to hang on just to pander to their ego.

Who are you to decide what is and isn't a hollow victory for your opponent? Ego much?

Suck it up, and curse your luck if you like, but lets not forget this is Elite: Dangerous (Well, it would be nice if it actually was).

 

[Samosa]

The timer is fine as it is.

The problem is bad game design, and the complete imbalance between risk/reward, insurance costs etc. Changing the timer is like trying to put a band-aid on a broken leg.

I've never combat logged in PvP (I'm rarely in open), but I'd probably consider it rather than have to re-grind 10M. Unless, of course, I started the fight.