An evening of combat logging with a surprise ending

[Herik]

Long story short, I recently purchased a clipper because I was tired of CMDRs escaping my python....... And the game changed for me
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Today I decided to hit hard against the federation capital for Hudson to find some brave CMDRs to fight, I left well alone the babies with thier harmless of mostly harmless and went after some pythons, to my surprise I managed to outmanouvour them so easily and win 4 battles against different CMDRs, but as soon as their shields dropped.......they all all combat logged, frustrated I met another python who told me that one guy had been doing it for days, I caught up with said CMDR who kept combat logging on people and he decided it would be fun to keep interdicting me over and over and logging off a few seconds after we drop out of SC
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Well I reported them all, when I asked the guy why he combat logged, he actually asked me what combat logging was, and then while I explained he said he's always done it and never got banned and that it's a cool way to escape death (by his way of speaking, and total lack of combat skills I believe this was his first few times in open)
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I managed to follow him into a wake, when I saw him under attack by a vulture from which he lost his shields and combat logged.....against an NPC
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I was about done for the evening when I got interdicted again, so I submitted and expected the python to be logging off again but it was a fer de lance, which turned out to be one of the best fights I've been In, so it has a happy ending.....ish
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Yeah, many in Open love to bluster about their combat prowess...and they 'combat log'. Human nature.

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

I am not talking about server DC, I am talking about one peer disconnecting from another. You'll find a lot of those in the network log when you set it to verbose. The number of server DC is indeed reasonable, but it is an entirely different story.

Then we are in agreement. I don't think FD should monitor p2p disconnects, but player to server disconnects. The kind you get from, task killing, Ethernet pulling, and cat villains, all for being pvp unwilling.

 

[avow555]

hm, if the game is run on a P2P networking model then im afraid we're stuck with this. Unless one day FD kicks up enough of a playerbase to allow for centralized servers. Come to think about it, aren't P2P networked games especially susceptible to hacks?

Very susceptible to hacks unfortunately.

 

[killminster]

As others have said a logout timer when you're in combat seems like an easy an logical solution. Make it long enough that by doing it you guarantee you lose the fight and keep the penalties for dying the same.

The go to "what if" weasel words about dodgy internet, cats etc. all smell of , and if you are that unlucky your IT equipment fails whatever the reason why shouldn't it cost you? If a part of your virtual spaceship were to break at the wrong moment the results could be fatal, why not the machine you are running the virtual spaceship on as well? It might spur some people on to sort out the problem.

 

[scorpyon]

You never have to pay a bounty so at worst it's a wash.

Do only unaligned, not wanted traders combat log? It's pretty rampant through out all professions. Besides that fact, random killing is part of the game. If a trader is attacked randomly, the killer may not get anything in return but, the trader is getting something in return by combat logging. It's basically an exploit to never have to pay insurance, ever. If it was an external program that made all insurance1cr would we even be having this argument?

Let me tell you what happened to me recently. I was attacked by an fdl bounty hunter for my 2 million dollar bounty and he was well within his right to do so of course. When he pulled me over and started to attack, I figured instead of running, I'd fight back. My pirate clipper had seen worse than an fdl and I could always escape if the fight went belly up.

After about 10 mins(at least it felt that long, it could have been way shorter) I managed to kill his thrusters while he was at 10% hull. In other words, he was DOA. I had taken heavy damage too, I was down to around 20% and my canopy had busted. Just as I move in for the kill, he vanishes. I'm left there with a massive repair/resupply cost and 7+ mins to get to a station. He suffered no loss, with the FD server code, he probably logged back in with full health and ammo.

Would I have gained anything from his kill, nothing tangible. The satisfaction of killing him perhaps. A satisfying end to an awesome fight, definitely. If he didn't disconnect, I probably would have added him as a friend. It was a good fight up until that point.

What did he gain? Around 3 million dollars he would have paid in insurance. He also ignored the risk he took by attacking a strong ship/flying in open/not equipping his ship properly, what have you.

Is it fair he be given a mulligan when he gambled and rolled a snake eyes? I took a huge risk fighting him in a clipper, mine paid off, I made it back to the station. (thank you C grade life support)

Does it make it ok because I wouldn't have gotten anything for his death? If the situation was reversed and I did it, would that make it wrong? Judging by your post probably.

You were saved a huge bill for a new ship if you had lost.
You had to pay the repair bill regardless of him logging off. If the fight had continued, you would have had to pay even more. So he saved you money...? You should be thanking him. You "won" the fight and he prevented you having to fork out any more than you did.
He got to keep his ship, albeit with a hefty repair bill of his own. The only effect that he had on you was to do you a favour and save you money, while not giving you the chance to stroke your ego for a moment.

Really struggling to see how you can possibly call this a bad thing other than you didn't get to see a little pop effect on the screen.
Let's face it - if his ship had blown up but there was a glitch and you didn't get to see it happen, you'd be back on here whining about combat loggers without the knowledge that this wasn't happened.
The fact that this is even possible proves that combat logging doesn't affect people's gameplay in the slightest other than the denial of self-gratification.
Which isn't the combat-logger's problem (if you go by what most pirates seem to be shouting: "I don't care about the other guy's feelings. I'll play how I want to play...")

 

[andyraptor]

Very susceptible to hacks unfortunately.

I think this thread is more about a player deliberate action rather than the "big H" word... but if you have concrete proof of such you should .... like a good community member... do this

If you would like to report a hack, unauthorized modification, or a method of cheating to Frontier, also open up a ticket at https://support.elitedangerous.com/open.php

As others have said a logout timer when you're in combat seems like an easy an logical solution. Make it long enough that by doing it you guarantee you lose the fight and keep the penalties for dying the same.

The go to "what if" weasel words about dodgy internet, cats etc. all smell of , and if you are that unlucky your IT equipment fails whatever the reason why shouldn't it cost you? If a part of your virtual spaceship were to break at the wrong moment the results could be fatal, why not the machine you are running the virtual spaceship on as well? It might spur some people on to sort out the problem.

Yup... and like all moderation a degree of real life moments will be built into the system of monitor and control....

Patterns of ...em... "moments" are more likely to be the flag that alerts ED of a possible warrant to have a closer look ... surely ?

 

[scorpyon]

As others have said a logout timer when you're in combat seems like an easy an logical solution. Make it long enough that by doing it you guarantee you lose the fight and keep the penalties for dying the same.

The go to "what if" weasel words about dodgy internet, cats etc. all smell of , and if you are that unlucky your IT equipment fails whatever the reason why shouldn't it cost you? If a part of your virtual spaceship were to break at the wrong moment the results could be fatal, why not the machine you are running the virtual spaceship on as well? It might spur some people on to sort out the problem.

Excellent! I assume I can invoice you the amount to upgrade all my hardware to a decent specification as you appear willing to make this the case.
I mean I'd hate to think you were actually implying that 'game players' be penalised for not being able to afford better rigs. Because that would be very selfish indeed and I know you didnt mean it like that.

 

[killminster]

Excellent! I assume I can invoice you the amount to upgrade all my hardware to a decent specification as you appear willing to make this the case.
I mean I'd hate to think you were actually implying that 'game players' be penalised for not being able to afford better rigs. Because that would be very selfish indeed and I know you didnt mean it like that.

You can interpret whatever I said however you like. Competitive type gameplay doesn't care about your excuses. Think of your rig as an extension of your virtual spaceship and maybe you'll understand my point. If you want to that is.

 

[lonewarrior]

You were saved a huge bill for a new ship if you had lost.
You had to pay the repair bill regardless of him logging off. If the fight had continued, you would have had to pay even more. So he saved you money...? You should be thanking him. You "won" the fight and he prevented you having to fork out any more than you did.
He got to keep his ship, albeit with a hefty repair bill of his own. The only effect that he had on you was to do you a favour and save you money, while not giving you the chance to stroke your ego for a moment.

Really struggling to see how you can possibly call this a bad thing other than you didn't get to see a little pop effect on the screen.
Let's face it - if his ship had blown up but there was a glitch and you didn't get to see it happen, you'd be back on here whining about combat loggers without the knowledge that this wasn't happened.
The fact that this is even possible proves that combat logging doesn't affect people's gameplay in the slightest other than the denial of self-gratification.
Which isn't the combat-logger's problem (if you go by what most pirates seem to be shouting: "I don't care about the other guy's feelings. I'll play how I want to play...")

Because it's supposed to be a game with consequences as are other games, if you could just walk out of s game in real life and say haha you didn't win because I quit there would be no such thing as sports or many other things
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Like I said, FD made the game, they say it's cheating whether you like it or not, so either play by the rules they set for the game or get out
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If your so content in saying it's not a bad thing, would a hack to teleport to any position around you be ok then as long as it's only used to escape death and lose all those precious credits? Or teleport to the nearest station safe and sound? Same effect, and both usually use an outside program to influence the game ( hack program or in the case of combat logging task manager) so in effect if you use the task manager it's technically hacking (outside program to influence the game)
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Go right ahead and tell me your ok with hacking because it has essentially the same end in many cases (unable to kill ship one way or another) and both can use outside programs to make an effect happen
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If your ok with combat logging, seems you'll be ok with hacking, and if not, then tell me how you can believe one isn't wrong and the other is when they can potentially have the similar methods and outcomes

 

[scorpyon]

Because it's supposed to be a game with consequences as are other games, if you could just walk out of s game in real life and say haha you didn't win because I quit there would be no such thing as sports or many other things
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Like I said, FD made the game, they say it's cheating whether you like it or not, so either play by the rules they set for the game or get out
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If your so content in saying it's not a bad thing, would a hack to teleport to any position around you be ok then? Same effect, and both usually use an outside program to influence the game ( hack program or in the case of combat logging task manager) so in effect if you use the task manager it's technically hacking (outside program to influence the game)
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Go right ahead and tell me your ok with hacking because it has essentially the same end in many cases (unable to kill ship one way or another) and both can use outside programs to make an effect happen
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If your ok with combat logging, seems you'll be ok with hacking, and if not, then tell me how you can believe one isn't wrong and the other is when they can potentially have the similar methods and outcomes

Hmm. My apologies. I didn't realise people were actually decompiling the source code of the game and writing scripts that interfere with the game code itself. Since that is actually what hacking is, if you had any understanding of the word. Using the task manager is "exploiting" a weakness in the game, "Whether you like it or not"...

On that point, in fact, I never once said I "liked" combat logging. (nor that I "didn't like" it either for that matter) But thanks for attempting to put words in my mouth (or would that be post?). If that's the crux of your argument that you have to try and pretend I said something, then the argument is already over. Thanks anyway.

It's a shame you don't appear to want to pay attention to the actual points I raised rather than raging about what you actually want to hear. I am sure you have some valid points of your own to make that I am always willing to read / listen to, but these are unfortunately lost when you simply choose to make inaccurate accusations.

Nobody is claiming that Combat Logging "should be allowed", or that it is "a good thing". (Or maybe some might be, I don't know. I certainly haven't myself)
I don't even need to raise the cliched "I don't do this myself" line - because if I did Combat Log, I'd be banned. Which I'm not.

You seem to have some sort of strange agenda that you are trying to fulfil here, in a simnilar vein to internet justice warriors... but I'm just not sure what that is. Alternatively, perhaps you are just trying to be vindictive in your posts towards me in particular? If so, GG. Enjoy your self-induced rage.
What does the pirate say? "It doesn't affect me if the other guy is left raging. I'll play the game the way I want to play..."

It's always interesting to see that this attitude only works when it's in their favour. When something upsets them, they'll be sure to come on the forums and QQ about it...

 

[lonewarrior]

Hmm. My apologies. I didn't realise people were actually decompiling the source code of the game and writing scripts that interfere with the game code itself. Since that is actually what hacking is, if you had any understanding of the word. Using the task manager is "exploiting" a weakness in the game, "Whether you like it or not"...

On that point, in fact, I never once said I "liked" combat logging. (nor that I "didn't like" it either for that matter) But thanks for attempting to put words in my mouth (or would that be post?). If that's the crux of your argument that you have to try and pretend I said something, then the argument is already over. Thanks anyway.

It's a shame you don't appear to want to pay attention to the actual points I raised rather than raging about what you actually want to hear. I am sure you have some valid points of your own to make that I am always willing to read / listen to, but these are unfortunately lost when you simply choose to make inaccurate accusations.

Nobody is claiming that Combat Logging "should be allowed", or that it is "a good thing". (Or maybe some might be, I don't know. I certainly haven't myself)
I don't even need to raise the cliched "I don't do this myself" line - because if I did Combat Log, I'd be banned. Which I'm not.

You seem to have some sort of strange agenda that you are trying to fulfil here, in a simnilar vein to internet justice warriors... but I'm just not sure what that is. Alternatively, perhaps you are just trying to be vindictive in your posts towards me in particular? If so, GG. Enjoy your self-induced rage.
What does the pirate say? "It doesn't affect me if the other guy is left raging. I'll play the game the way I want to play..."

It's always interesting to see that this attitude only works when it's in their favour. When something upsets them, they'll be sure to come on the forums and QQ about it...

Maybe you should look up "lag hacking" as an example
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http://security.stackexchange.com/q...l-latency-or-lag-hacking-in-multiplayer-games
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A method of HACKING in online games that uses a variety of methods INCLUDING causes massive downloads to lag the connection to gain an advantage, it's not used much anymore but in older games it was considered HACKING with NO changes to the source code and using OUTSIDE influences or pulling the cable for a few seconds and plugging it back in to avoid death on some older games because then when reconnected the "hacker" could use those precious seconds to kill his opponent and on reconnect the game would either ignore both kills or update both players as dead, it can also be used to "teleport" around players in old FPSs games by pulling the plug, moving and running behind where they were and then reconnect and update your position behind them before the game times out their connection
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Ive actually seen this in Chivalry where a player downloads loads of stuff and gets 900+ ping and goes around killing everyone because the server can't keep up and they take damage sometimes 10-15 secs after they are struck and their attacks can't be blocked, so it ruins everyone's play while an almost invincible player runs around with each life until he's finally kicked
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Wait..........I'm sensing a connection here between that which is known as a type of hacking and combat logging using task manager or cable disconnect ........maybe you can figure it out for me?
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And you said you fail to see how it's a bad thing (combat logging to avoid death) so that leaves 2 options, either you see it as a "good thing" or it's "ok and it doesn't bother you"

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

You were saved a huge bill for a new ship if you had lost.
You had to pay the repair bill regardless of him logging off. If the fight had continued, you would have had to pay even more. So he saved you money...? You should be thanking him. You "won" the fight and he prevented you having to fork out any more than you did.
He got to keep his ship, albeit with a hefty repair bill of his own. The only effect that he had on you was to do you a favour and save you money, while not giving you the chance to stroke your ego for a moment.

Did you not read? He was dead. It was all over for him but the crying. Not even an act of god could have saved him from his death and granted me mine. I was alive either way, he was the one dead in less than 10 secs. He saved me nothing, but saved himself his rebuy.

Really struggling to see how you can possibly call this a bad thing other than you didn't get to see a little pop effect on the screen.
Let's face it - if his ship had blown up but there was a glitch and you didn't get to see it happen, you'd be back on here whining about combat loggers without the knowledge that this wasn't happened.
The fact that this is even possible proves that combat logging doesn't affect people's gameplay in the slightest other than the denial of self-gratification.

If you don't see it you never will, it's not about seeing the little pop on my screen. It's about a satisfying end to a fight. To know that my, and indeed his actions have consequences. Not, I can attack whomever I want and throw my "get out of jail free card" around anytime I wish.

Which isn't the combat-logger's problem (if you go by what most pirates seem to be shouting: "I don't care about the other guy's feelings. I'll play how I want to play...")

No, I'll play how the developers want the game to be played. If they didn't want players to shoot and pirate other players, there would only be a pve mode. It has been said multiple ways, killing, and piracy are part of the game.

If other players have such a hate-on for pirates and killers they picked the wrong game since even npcs do it. If they only hate player pirates, and killers, they have 2 other options to prevent that from happening.

 

[scorpyon]

Sigh...

Did you not read? He was dead. It was all over for him but the crying. Not even an act of god could have saved him from his death and granted me mine. I was alive either way, he was the one dead in less than 10 secs. He saved me nothing, but saved himself his rebuy.

So, he actually died then, yes?
You finished the fight? He couldn't ram you causing more damage because he actually died already? Or because he had no thrusters?
And he couldn't fire his weapons because they were disabled?
Otherwise this makes no sense. If he was already dead, how did he CL?
Or are you just trying to claim victory before actually beating him?
Because no bad guy in a cheesy movie ever did that... ^_^

If you don't see it you never will, it's not about seeing the little pop on my screen. It's about a satisfying end to a fight. To know that my, and his actions have consequences. Not I can attack whomever I want and throw my "get out of jail free card" around anytime I wish.

Thank you!
So it IS about stroking your ePeen rather than getting anything tangible out of it.
That's what I've been saying from the start. Thanks for clearing that up.

No, I'll play how the developers want the game to be played. If they didn't want players to shoot and pirate other players, there would only be a pve mode. It has been said multiple ways, killing, and piracy are part of the game.

I see. And your deep in-depth knowledge of the Dev's minds and their plans for the game also extends to the belief that they don't want players to find new and interesting ways to avoid battles they can't win, yes?
Otherwise, this statement doesn't do you any favours here.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but ED is not a primarily PvP game. Otherwise, there wouldn't be trading and exploration.
It's not all about you, I'm afraid. No matter how hard you want it to be.

If other players have a hate-on for pirates and killers they picked the wrong game since even npcs do it. If they only hate player pirates, and killers, they have 2 other options to prevent that from happening.

If you don't like people hating you for your actions, then change your actions.
Sorry, but that's life.
You can't go round causing people grief and expect them to pat you on the back and say "thanks".
If you don't like this fact, there are two other modes I can think of that you can play on... Though I get the feeling you might not get much love from those either if you can't learn to play nice...

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

So, he actually died then, yes?
You finished the fight? He couldn't ram you causing more damage because he actually died already? Or because he had no thrusters?
And he couldn't fire his weapons because they were disabled?
Otherwise this makes no sense. If he was already dead, how did he CL?
Or are you just trying to claim victory before actually beating him?
Because no bad guy in a cheesy movie ever did that... ^_^

I guess i could have had a brain aneurysm, allowing enough time for him to reboot his drives to kill me, Or the magic wish-granting space unicorn could have come in and killed me, i didnt think of that either. He was dead in the water, If you wish to ignore that fact we wont get anywhere.

Thank you!
So it IS about stroking your ePeen rather than getting anything tangible out of it.
That's what I've been saying from the start. Thanks for clearing that up.

You're right it's all about my ego, because having a persisant universe where actions have consequences couldn't possibly be interesting to anyone.

 

[scorpyon]

I think we are going round in circles a bit.
So let me take a step back.

I enjoy bantering with you as a pirate vs non-pirate as theres almost a sense of RP in that. And I respect you as a forum mate on here as well, so dont want this to get too heated as an argument. We both obviously have very strong views on the subject which is cool. It shows we are both passionate about a game we love.
All good stuff!

But I know I am now starting to reply from an emotive sense rather than anything else so I'm going to let this be I think.

Lets not come to forum-blows!
Heh!

Hope thats cool with you?

 

[HectorW]

In my time... combat loggers would be stoned to death!

ok, really...with your namr

surely you mean impaled with care so they would live for many hours while impaled

 

[Deleted member 94277]

You know Frontier even said themselves that combat logging in open, solo or Private group is all the same to them - an exploit.

Yeah, I know. And I've said so many times here in the forums that I do it, I've lost count. So much for FD dealing with combat loggers: even if we expose ourselves, they don't do nothing about it.

EDIT:

I've been playing video games online far longer than I would like to admit. I can tell you without a doubt that cheaters know they are cheating. You don't download and install a "hack" or trainer without knowing it's a hack or trainer. Unless you were born on another planet, you know it's cheating. Saying you don't is like saying you didn't know having sex with your wife's sister was cheating, no one explained it to you, at age 34.

This absolutely true. From the first moment I combat logged, even before entering the forums, I knew I was doing something not exactly 'planned' by the devs.

Combat loggers are a pain and cowards at the same time. They need to man up. If you go into a fight either finish it or run away, dont combat log. Its game breaking as far as I am concerned so why do it? There is no shame in running away, I do it all the time, I would never ever consider combat logging. You are never going to improve your skills if you combat log. Its bad form and just not cricket.

I can't speak for others, but as to why do it, I do it because frankly I'm lazy. Let me explain: whenever I see that a combat is not going my way, I try to run. If my shields fail, I'm mass locked and my hull is taking too much damage - generally, if I see that I'm not going to make it - I ALT+F4 and close the process, but only if I have any bounties to reclaim or cargo to deliver (the latter is almost never, since I hate trading). If I don't have anything to reclaim, I let just let my ship explode. I've even lost a fully decked Vulture once because I didn't had insurance credit. The reasoning is really simple: dying is the quickest and safest way to exit a combat area if you don't have any bounties to claim. This is why I say that this is not a insurance issue: I will keep combat logging until I don't lose bounties when I lose my ship. Paying insurance makes sense, losing bounties doesn't.

he "oh I didnt know it was wrong" is not an excuse in my book, you have logged out of the game because you are losing, of course its wrong.

Indeed, that excuse is really bad.

Both are exploits.

I don't regenerate CZs or RES until I get what I want. I either take what I find, or I move to a different area.

I agree completely.

 

[kurush]

Then we are in agreement. I don't think FD should monitor p2p disconnects, but player to server disconnects. The kind you get from, task killing, Ethernet pulling, and cat villains, all for being pvp unwilling.

I bet there are enough smart people out there who figured that you don't have to DC from the server to get rid of CMDR on your back It all would look the same to CMDR though. And people who are not smart enough for this have to be educated, so let send them some warnings.

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

I bet there are enough smart people out there who figured that you don't have to DC from the server to get rid of CMDR on your back It all would look the same to CMDR though. And people who are not smart enough for this have to be educated, so let send them some warnings.

Should FD also not balance weapons and shields since, those same smart people can make One hit kill weapons and unlimited shields? And those same not smart people can learn about that too.

 

[kurush]

Should.

Where did I say FDev should not warn them? In fact I said they should so that people get educated. Your pew pew skill is probably great but what about reading comprehension? And the obvious conclusion that it would lead nowhere just makes me and my cat even happier.