Credits come to easy? Small ships redundant?

[the100thmonkey]

Someone earlier mentioned using particular ships to suit a particular style or for a desire for challenge. This rings really true for me.

I had a Vulture and an FdL. I sold them both because they made PvE boring - there was no challenge. I went to a Python for trade and a DBS, which I absolutely adore in conflict zones and RESes because it's so much fun to fly - it's fast, has great acceleration and awesome maneuverability, and isn't totally OP with the guns.

In that regard, the small ships have a role. I wouldn't normally take on an SSS on my own no matter the ship, but I'd feel a lot more confident going in to one with mischievous intent in a wing of DBSes, Vipers and Cobras. if you coordinate effectively, small ships can be very powerful.

I can't really speak for PvP as I have only limited experience with it.

As for the Cr/hr question, I spent the weekend building up a Communist government in a system I'm particularly attached to as the PowerPlay update caused influence to go a bit crazy, despite the low volume of traffic.

I came out of the weekend about 4mcr richer, without even trying. Ironically, I went to the local HIRES for some pewpew fun to cap the weekend off, and got saddled with rubbish instance after rubbish instance that meant I was making max 500kcr/hr.

 

[Morbad]

Small ships aren't redundant.

There are frequently reasons to not be in the largest ship one can afford. Sometimes there are economic considerations. Sometimes you want to manage your risks. Sometimes a small ship just does certain things better.

 

[DrugaRunda]

This only reflects on the wrong direction that the game designers took. We got this amazing galaxy, but instead of:

* getting roles for the ships, we got the nerfs on various weapons, to the point of uselessness for most of them

* enabling the real economy where players can have an impact together, we got an artificial money sink attempt with "accelerated" merit buying in PP, where you have to click and wait repeating the same action 11x over few minutes to fill a Type6 with merits, let alone larger ships

* making exploration more than just a pretty "look and move" game, we got the doubling of exploration profits

* making heat control mechanism and stealth part of the game, we got slight bump to smuggling profits via PP

* enabling piracy, we got the ability to run away from engagements (at least it looks like they fixed cargo hatch limpets now )

* getting longer, meaningful missions, we got a mission system based on rank where you cannot do more than half, if you are starting up

* fixing mining, we got a bit better base mechanic while still leaving the obvious disparity between it and other professions

* Naval ranking tied to some sort of overarching story, we got a freaking disconnected mission grind to achieve them (they could at least give you a custom "fish lord" title, if you got your lordship via delivering 10 tons of fish)

* getting to do something together, we got competition vs players on "our own" side both in CG's and in Powerplay where undermining from within is the easiest way to break up a faction (overextending it)

* getting something to do during SC, well... we got absolutely nothing

and many more... It does not have to be like this, yet here we are.

 

[Steve72]

The lack of roles for smaller ships and cheap running costs of high end ships means there will be no place for smaller ships.

Larger ships have better shields fire power and cargo space. They trade, fight and mine more efficiently. There are no downsides. Since repair and fuel costs were made a joke why would you not use a large ship.

Some one will pipe up but what about the high rebuy.

With multiple scb your shields dont go down. If they do you just leave by jumping to another system.

You only loose your ship if you chose to. Unlike small ships that go pop very quickly.

There is no risk only inconvenience in this game and it is geared for large ships. Until this changes small ships will be used briefly or by the niche player that had all the money they want.

 

[HeavyGroovez]

The Scout and the Courier are my favourite ships in the game. I do all my assasination missions in them.

 

[PotatoOverdose]

Most small ships became quasi-obsolete the moment combat started paying off as much or more than mid-level trading. On the one hand, combat could make 2-3 million credits an hour with a decent ship, and on the other hand they made a very decent combat ship - The vulture (originally costing 20 million) dirt cheap. When I started, it took me a week to get a cobra, 3-4 days to get a type 6, and another week+ to get an asp. Now? Now you can trade a few rares, hop in a viper and make 1+ million credits/hour. A few hours later, the new player's in a Vulture making 2-3 million credits an hour - his maximum earning potential for a while. That kind of income, from combat, was unheard of in the days after launch.

To put it in perspective - around the first month after launch a python could make maybe 200k-500k an hour from res sites. These days, a viper can make more, and a vulture can make much, much more. All of a sudden, decent income became available to the masses that didn't (or couldn't) trade properly. There isn't much point in trading either tbh - a type 7 or a python cap out at around 3 million credits/hour.

So, why does (almost) no one fly eagles or vipers anymore? Because the vulture replaced them, fully and completely, as a cheap and effective combat platform. People still fly the bigger ships because they do things better than the vulture in one way or another - be it making money, exploring, or raw firepower/defense. But, barring a few niche applications (stealth with the diamondback, top speed with a cobra), the smaller ships are largely obsolete - mostly due to the now cheap vulture.

 

[Yomamas Fett]

Asasinations in the Couier are the most fun I've had in weeks, demands full attention, much better than just blamming stuft in my Python.

 

[Morbad]

As much as I think what PotatoOverdose mentions above is something of a problem with ship progression, I have to say I love the fact that everyone and his/her mother is in a Vulture.

Nine time out of ten, a given Vulture pilot is a clueless novice...but sometimes you run into someone who has a clue and things get interesting. No real way of knowing beforehand, unless you've encountered the pilot before.

 

[Riedquat]

I mentioned this very thing back when they upgraded the bounty amounts, because people were making millions of credits in very little time bounty farming in RES's.

I called it 'gamebreaking' because personally I felt it broke my game, so much so that I banned myself from going to RES's.

Because of this my ship progression has been (if I remember correctly) : Sidewinder > Eagle > Hauler > Adder > Cobra. (I did try out a viper at some point but didnt keep it for long).

Otherwise I would probably of gone straight to cobra and then a 'big ship'.

That Adder served me well as an exploration vessel

 

[DrugaRunda]

There is no risk only inconvenience in this game and it is geared for large ships. Until this changes small ships will be used briefly or by the niche player that had all the money they want.

This is all an issue of the design direction. Here are some ideas on how to remedy the situation:

Sidewinder - full stealth, can be only detected visually, if at 0 temp; needs missions where you need to be fully stealthy as a reason for existence

Eagle - need different weapons which are "Eagle" only and which will enable it for specific type of counter ( it could be an FDL assassin type of ship, or something similar, with another form of "punishment" for failure, not just credits; FD have been very poor at providing such types of gameplay options to date)

Hauler - a cheap transport ship - currently has that role

Adder - cheap exploration ship which could have particular exploration bonuses, ie have some Adder specific slots which you need to utilize to discover specific type of something (scientific module/whatever, but again unique)

Viper - Lowest level combat ship which should have weapons available for assassination of larger ships, ie a full salvo of his weapons should bring down unsuspecting large ships/traders (combo of stealth + weapon load should be balanced with risk of failure, have other mechanisms at play - ie reputation, etc, not just credit risk)

Cobra - should be fastest ship in the game, it would be fine with this as main "reason" for existence

Diamondback Scout - needs a unique ability of some sort, like second fastest so it can be really only countered by a Cobra, but can protect/hunt Vipers without special weapons, so this could be a small ship specialist type of vehicle. Can see sidewinders etc.

Diamondback Explorer - middle level exploration vehicle, needs an expanded exploration game for a specific role like Adder (also ASP would need some exploration unique abilities on it's own not tied to credit levels)

Imperial Courier - Could be a small passenger ship, vs the Orca, specialist in Imperial space for their missions.


etc - top end is relatively well defined now, but as you may introduce even larger ships, more variety could be added relatively easily, and the above is just a balance idea.

Main point being - all ships can have roles, regardless of ship costs - and be useful forever, it is only that FD is not working on developing this aspect of the game. Orca was there from the beginning and yet there is no content provided for it, let alone other ships who may have a minimal reason for existence through best value per buck while you are amassing credits.

 

[Snarfbuckle]

Having accumulated a decent amount of cash without using trade tools or grinding (except two three day grinding stints), I've actually downgraded to an imperial courier recently.

Yup, personally I cant really see myself going up above Asp Explorer.

I have no need to go from 6 million investment to a 17 million and upwards.

 

[Vurosia]

Hi Chaps,

I've been playing since Alpha and I'm wondering if any one else thinks that it is too easy to make credits now?

This is where I'm coming from.

I spent a very very long time in small craft and got to experience each of them for days and days and weeks of solid gaming.

Now it seems that players an quickly hop from a sidewinder to a cobra in a handfull or two sessions, Making small craft redundant. It seems that it's now a game of cobra's and clippers with a brief spell in a trade ship before moving on to a python or Annaconda.

For instance, I havent seen a single thread in ages relating to the humble but amazing Hauler.

So that's I mean about credits coming to easy.

1 million credits per hour for combat used to be unheard of and now it seems pretty low end.
1 million credits per hour for trading used to be a bit of an eye opener. Now it seems no issue.

So are all the little ships just a relatively meaningless quick stop on the way to a a clipper, python, Annaconda?

People who have been playing for a few months are probably best suited to answer this as they may have observed the same thing.

How many hours play does it take to get from a side winder to a Cobra these days?

What really got me thinking was the Clippers on sale to every Surf and how many I see flying around these days.

Just pondering while I have a cuppa.

I believe they are easy to make. I went from a Sidewinder to an Anaconda in about a month of playing.

 

[Vasious]

While I am for having utility expanded for the small ships, I am against the idea of unique modules /fittings or abilities for them

They are what they are, it is just including more roles and missions where they excel

The Sidewinder is a scout so let it scout, follow, track, etc etc where heavy guns are not needed.

It is about making the upgrade to a bigger ship a choice rather than a given but organically, not due to Eagles having a module only Eagles have but rather the performance and characteristics of the Eagle makes it a choice

I fly the Sidewinder as I am used to it but I cannot really quantify it.

 

[Louella]

like I mentioned earlier, I went from Sidewinder to Cobra, and have not gone any further yet.

What I found with the Cobra was, that even with the default equipment that a new Cobra comes with, I could make a lot more money than I was making with the Sidewinder. Multiple simultaneous courier missions, multiple smuggler missions, greater ability to do combat missions, greater cargo hold to make money on return trips from combat missions.

Ships are cheap, fittings are expensive, but even a factory Cobra can make lots more money than a moderately upgraded Sidewinder, with the types of missions on offer, and the general range of money making activities available.

 

[trollson]

A more comprehensive approach would be purchases not (directly) relate to wealth-gain - implying other forms of game play than we already have.

No please don't, not another hidden-secret-'reputation'-stat-nobody-knows-about.

I really wasn't thinking about anything like that. Things more like, for example:

• Paying for a message to go out on GalNet (subject to limitations).
• Renting warehouse space on a Station to hold stockpile of goods.
• Fund a BB mission that can be answered by another player (you are the Patron).

 

[PavelKCZ]

I really wasn't thinking about anything like that. Things more like, for example:

• Renting warehouse space on a Station to hold stockpile of goods.
• Fund a BB mission that can be answered by another player (you are the Patron).

Why would someone want to hoard goods in warehouse in game, where is no economy, prices are more or less fixed and stock amounts are refreshed regulary ?
Player based BB missions will be a griefers paradise and FD will not make them possible (at least I hope so).

 

[jacozilla]

Why would someone want to hoard goods in warehouse in game, where is no economy, prices are more or less fixed and stock amounts are refreshed regulary ?
Player based BB missions will be a griefers paradise and FD will not make them possible (at least I hope so).

Number of good reasons for storing goods in warehouse we can rent/pay for upkeep - may not be good reasons for you, but they are for me and I'd enjoy warehouse storage if it got added

1. Very true, without much price fluctuation, there's no reason to store for arbitrage opportunities - however, my #1 reason would be to have a central store of 'strategic' goods 0 items that are called for in missions.

Can I jump 2 or 3 max jumps away to get that fish, coffee, whatever? Yes. But if given the option to have a player warehouse which I'd find quite in line with the trade aspect of the game, I'd store items even at a loss to the base price, including rent/maintenance cost on warehouse, just to have the flexibility of a central logistics warehouse I could stock with mission related items.

2. There are times when I am flying back to my "base" to switch ships or just halt my play session. Normally I don't carry trade goods on that run because it's just an empty ship run to park. But if I had a warehouse, I could take each "empty" ship run there to carry some trade goods, store it, and next time I run my cargo ship I would have at least 1 load of ready to go trade cargo right there, that may not be available on that world for a good price.

3. Pure fun. I don't care if the goods I store go up or down in price. I like trade. I like RP aspects of being a trader. It would help enhance my immersion if I could actually store thousands of tons of goods that I brought out of my own warehouse to go sell, than always just be a pickup man moving items from A to B.

None of these may be good reasons to you, I completely concede. But I don't see how me having this warehouse would hurt your play - since as you just said, we can't price arbitrage.

 

[gudlbua]

Hi Chaps,

I've been playing since Alpha and I'm wondering if any one else thinks that it is too easy to make credits now?

This is where I'm coming from.

I spent a very very long time in small craft and got to experience each of them for days and days and weeks of solid gaming.

Now it seems that players an quickly hop from a sidewinder to a cobra in a handfull or two sessions, Making small craft redundant. It seems that it's now a game of cobra's and clippers with a brief spell in a trade ship before moving on to a python or Annaconda.

For instance, I havent seen a single thread in ages relating to the humble but amazing Hauler.

So that's I mean about credits coming to easy.

1 million credits per hour for combat used to be unheard of and now it seems pretty low end.
1 million credits per hour for trading used to be a bit of an eye opener. Now it seems no issue.

So are all the little ships just a relatively meaningless quick stop on the way to a a clipper, python, Annaconda?

People who have been playing for a few months are probably best suited to answer this as they may have observed the same thing.

How many hours play does it take to get from a side winder to a Cobra these days?

What really got me thinking was the Clippers on sale to every Surf and how many I see flying around these days.

Just pondering while I have a cuppa.

Look, it's about giving meaning to the grind. They could make it take 2x more time if they add different things to do in the game. Right now there is only, and I mean only the grind. And for a pure grind, Credit progression is too slow, not too fast (as the only thing to look forward to right now is that next ship).
Upgrades for Fighters are: Eagle, Viper, Vulture, Fer-de-Lance.
Fully equipped Vulture to Fer-de-Lance upgrade takes somewhere ~70-80 Mio., if you don't want to start with your new ship completely naked... That would mean a downgrade AND no insurance. So making 1 million per hour is still very low if you need to make 80 million. That's 80 hours of a straight grind for combat pilots. I repeat: 80 hours of nothing but grinding conflict zones. Really think it's too fast? If grinding is fullfilling to you (and I'm not saying it can't be!), then maybe. But for the rest of us the prospect of this alone is horrible. Simply horrible. I neither want to trade around in a Type-6, then a Type-7 for roughly the same time (80 hours for a small upgrade, as my Vulture is quite furnished at 13. Mil.), as this is not my preferred playstyle and still very very very boring.
And I am just estimating, but fully upgrading the Fer-de-lance will take another 50-60 Million afterwards? Another 30 hour grind? (Fer-de-Lance probably melts through conflict zones FAST once you got some upgrades in - purely estimating again).

 

[CMDR Kantos Kan]

Look, it's about giving meaning to the grind. They could make it take 2x more time if they add different things to do in the game. Right now there is only, and I mean only the grind. And for a pure grind, Credit progression is too slow, not too fast (as the only thing to look forward to right now is that next ship).
Upgrades for Fighters are: Eagle, Viper, Vulture, Fer-de-Lance.
Fully equipped Vulture to Fer-de-Lance upgrade takes somewhere ~70-80 Mio., if you don't want to start with your new ship completely naked... That would mean a downgrade AND no insurance. So making 1 million per hour is still very low if you need to make 80 million. That's 80 hours of a straight grind for combat pilots. I repeat: 80 hours of nothing but grinding conflict zones. Really think it's too fast? If grinding is fullfilling to you (and I'm not saying it can't be!), then maybe. But for the rest of us the prospect of this alone is horrible. Simply horrible. I neither want to trade around in a Type-6, then a Type-7 for roughly the same time (80 hours for a small upgrade, as my Vulture is quite furnished at 13. Mil.), as this is not my preferred playstyle and still very very very boring.
And I am just estimating, but fully upgrading the Fer-de-lance will take another 50-60 Million afterwards? Another 30 hour grind? (Fer-de-Lance probably melts through conflict zones FAST once you got some upgrades in - purely estimating again).

On the other hand, you can't give every player the ability to quickly buy the biggest and baddest ships. I think that what is missing is more varied missions that would engage the players more with more depth. If you're having fun doing such and such, you won't see getting to a Fer-de-Lance as a grind. Which brings the question as to why people wants to get the bigger and badder ships. I think that's because you can't do much with smaller ships. You can't really earn much from trading (when compared to a much larger ship), you can't really compete in killing others either due to small loadouts, etc. At least, that's why I have been grinding my way up to a Clipper. Now, I feel I can have a breather a bit as I'm not scared each time I get interdicted as to whether I will be destroyed or will survive. I really don't feel like I absolutely need a Python or an Anaconda. Sure, if I can afford one at some point, I'll probably buy it. But now, a bigger ship like the Clipper is providing me some cushion in security. Sure, if you have a smaller ship which has a lower insurance requirement, who cares if you're blown up to pieces? Yes, but it's not fun being blown up repeatedly or having to run constantly. Plus, if you're on the last leg of a longer trip, you get back to start at the latest station you were before being destroyed. So, what's the alternative to all this? Get a bigger ship! How do you get a bigger ship? By ranking as many credits as you can. But, when getting credits is the only goal and you need to repeatedly do the same thing over and over, that's where it gets boring. So, I agree with others that have said it before: the game needs more depth and variety in the missions and activities that you do. And ships need a bit of balancing or if you have a smaller ship, there needs to be some cleared advantages to it and more purposes to each class of ships.

At least, that's my own personal opinion.

 

[Darrett]

If you would then increase the wing size to say 6 you could have wings consisting of 2 big ships and 4 fighter escorts etc. and everybody could feel useful.

When I went through and originally laid out the idea, one of the other parts of it was to increase wing sizes to 6, and make each ship take up a certain amount of "space" in a group, be that through individual point values or values based on ship size, so you could have a 6 ship wing of Eagles, but if you bring along an Anaconda it uses as much space in the wing as three Eagles (Large Ship VS Small), so your maximum wing size is now 4. Some crossover ships would be upgraded or downgraded in point costs, for instance, the Vulture would be considered a medium ship because it's significantly more powerful than other small ships, or a Python might be considered a Large ship for the same reason.

The biggest hurdle there would be how to handle it if you are in a wing and want to swap from Eagle to Anaconda, does it kick you from the wing?