Nerf crowd about to ruin the game again

[CMDR Corlas]

I'm a developer too, I suppose the difficulty of the change would mostly depend on how the software was designed. Either way I'd imagine the hardest part would be deciding on the proper (if any) change to do, rather than the actual changing.

I'd be happy to duel, if we ever do meet in the black.

 

[Vasious]

If SCB are fine for PvE and balanced for that, then would there be any objections to the Military Strike and CZ etc etc Ships Stacking several SCBs to use as you fight them?

Why have Naval Vessels not stripped out and filled with Defensive Equipment and armour?

if we are just talking about PvE, why should the player have exclusive assess to stacked "save me" or "I dont want to have to deal with the consequences of getting in a bad situation" buttons

Would it be a good change for the NPCs to be using them the way the PvE Players are using them?

 

[R3trograde]

I dropped a potential solution of page 25 of the other thread. I think it will keep the SCB completely functional for those using them in PVE (that don't expect a God-Mode button, anyways) and may solve the uber tank issues in PVP. Its funny though, I mostly PvE, and sometimes PvP. I only ever fitted SCB for PvP, didnt even realize PvE would necessitate their use.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=171185&page=25&p=2623324&viewfull=1#post2623324

 

[INSTG8R]

If anything shield related does occur, kill the shield boosters completely, keep the cell banks.

WOW FDEV should hire you right this minute. Your ideas of balanced play are phenomenal! /sarcasm

You really believe that? Shield Boosters ARE actually balanced. You get to have your shields up a bit longer but when they do go down you better be making a beeline out of whatever situation you were in because Shield Boosters ACTUALLY have a real penalty that makes sesne. I run Shield Boosters but I don't use "Magic Shield Potions" Shield Boosters have a clear cut benefit and consequence. Slightly more resilient shields with the consequence of a VERY increased recharge time if and when they go down.

So why don't you try to explain with a little more detail of why Shield Boosters should be "killed" but your "Magic Shield Potion" spammers are okay?

 

[Mohrgan]

WOW FDEV should hire you right this minute. Your ideas of balanced play are phenomenal! /sarcasm

You really believe that? Shield Boosters ARE actually balanced. You get to have your shields up a bit longer but when they do go down you better be making a beeline out of whatever situation you were in because Shield Boosters ACTUALLY have a real penalty that makes sesne. I run Shield Boosters but I don't use "Magic Shield Potions" Shield Boosters have a clear cut benefit and consequence. Slightly more resilient shields with the consequence of a VERY increased recharge time if and when they go down.

So why don't you try to explain with a little more detail of why Shield Boosters should be "killed" but your "Magic Shield Potion" spammers are okay?

Because he flies an Anaconda. There is no room on his utility mounts for boosters because they are filled with Chaff.

 

[EUS]

WOW FDEV should hire you right this minute. Your ideas of balanced play are phenomenal! /sarcasm

You really believe that? Shield Boosters ARE actually balanced. You get to have your shields up a bit longer but when they do go down you better be making a beeline out of whatever situation you were in because Shield Boosters ACTUALLY have a real penalty that makes sesne. I run Shield Boosters but I don't use "Magic Shield Potions" Shield Boosters have a clear cut benefit and consequence. Slightly more resilient shields with the consequence of a VERY increased recharge time if and when they go down.

So why don't you try to explain with a little more detail of why Shield Boosters should be "killed" but your "Magic Shield Potion" spammers are okay?

Little bit angry?
Because being able to fill all utility slots, while increasing shield strength by 20% each without melting the PP is not reasonable.

 

[Sandmann]

Dear FD,

I'm getting really tired of this.

Now they're talking about killing SCBs, and those are a critical part of PvE. The momentum is very strong, those against the nerf mostly seem to be keeping quiet, and you've shown time and time again that you're very... democratic; you seem to go with what you hear the most. I'm mostly satisfied with the way the game is now, but I'm tired of the mechanics being sliced away by bits and pieces in ways that badly damage the experience because people who are strictly here to duel other players make demands based on the way they want things to go while they fight each other. If you kill SCBs, I will NOT be satisfied at all.

I'm starting to honestly think that we're not going to be able to combine PvP and PvE successfully in the main game. Something needs to change, big time, to save us PvEers from the nerfs you keep imposing on us at the behest of the PvPers.

Y'know what I find really amusing? When SCB's were first introduced there was a great cry of them doing so "at the behest of PvPers" and that their introduction was "nerfing the game" and "dumbing it down". Now we get the same complaints at the proposal of their removal.

Personally I don't like SCB's and I don't use them (when I even play the game, which I haven't since 1.3 because of it's dumbing down and lack of content for the sake of powerplay and cqc). In my opinion the original idea of SCBs was a way for you to last longer in combat if you're not that good at combat but really good at making money... but now that they're pretty much standard equipment they've been cancelled out. Getting rid of them would also leave them cancelled out, but I doubt it'll happen. I think rather they'll (eventually, maybe) introduce more equipment that you might want to fit, and thus force you to choose between that and SCB's... thus removing the cancelling out effect.

 

[EUS]

Because he flies an Anaconda. There is no room on his utility mounts for boosters because they are filled with Chaff.

I don't fly a conda (yet).

 

[Mohrgan]

Little bit angry?
Because being able to fill all utility slots, while increasing shield strength by 20% each without melting the PP is not reasonable.

Shield boosters carry a significant power cost. OA booster costs 1.20 mj, for a 20% increase. An A6 shield gen costs 4.34 which is 27% of the power cost. A 6A SCB costs 2.48mj. One booster draws 48% of a A6 SCB's power usage, for that static 20%, while the SCB can refill the shields 4 times. I think boosters are well balanced for their benefit.

 

[mossfoot]

Shield boosters carry a significant power cost. OA booster costs 1.20 mj, for a 20% increase. An A6 shield gen costs 4.34 which is 27% of the power cost. A 6A SCB costs 2.48mj. One booster draws 48% of a A6 SCB's power usage, for that static 20%, while the SCB can refill the shields 4 times. I think boosters are well balanced for their benefit.

Heh, I was halfway through that math, gave up, then saw you did it for me. Rep!

 

[INSTG8R]

Because he flies an Anaconda. There is no room on his utility mounts for boosters because they are filled with Chaff.

That sound even more ridiculous?? Why anyone would need more than one Chaff Launcher is beyond me(You ever seen those NPC Vipers in their "Cloud" of Chaff?)I run Chaff on my Python or my Vulture when I do CZ's for when those times you end up getting ganged up on and need to break combat and get some space. The Anaconda has EIGHT utility slots if you need to fill them with Chaff you're doing something wrong...

Little bit angry?
Because being able to fill all utility slots, while increasing shield strength by 20% each without melting the PP is not reasonable.

Angry? No not at all... Just baffled by your "logic" That you see SCB's as "okay" but Shield Booster shouldn't exist? No FDEV should have stopped right there with the Boosters. It is more than enough of a "buff" with realistic consequences for using them. You on the other hand can just fill your Cargo Hold with as many "Insta Heals" as you can carry with very little consequences but perhaps some power balancing.

This brilliant poster actually sums up the "consequences" of your "Insta Heals Button" perfectly....

I just took my Python into a RES, kinda late and I'm really sleepy.

Started shooting at an NPC Python, wing of 3 with 2 Vultures or something. Anyway, I started taking a lot of damage. 'Hmm' I thought slowly putting 4 pips to shields and pew pewing the Python while popping my scb. Don't think too much of it since I expect 2 Vultures and a Python to tickle a bit.

'Still taking a lot of damage' I think as the Python explodes, 'shouldn't that have gone down a bit?', pop another scb and look at my scanner. 'Oh, there are 15 flashy red triangles... shiny'. Pop another scb.

'Maybe I ought to actually leave, since I don't think they're going to stop..', boost, boost, oh forgot to put pips to engines, no boost. pop another scb.

'Hmm that really is a lot of shiny weapon stuff flying past my cockpit, maybe I ought to fsd..' .... hit the wrong thing and don't notice (I told you I was tired)... 'Uh still here.. those red triangles are really angry'... pop another scb.

Finally low wake out and head off to dock. No hull damage.

YAY! SCB.... TOTALLY BALANCED!!!

Yep that right there is SCB's in a nutshell.

 

[FuzzySpider]

Little bit angry?
Because being able to fill all utility slots, while increasing shield strength by 20% each without melting the PP is not reasonable.

That extra shield strength comes at the cost of power.

SCBs can be switched on and off as much as you like, and give you over 100% extra shielding each without effecting the PP at all.

 

[INSTG8R]

That extra shield strength comes at the cost of power.

SCBs can be switched on and off as much as you like, and give you over 100% extra shielding each without effecting the PP at all.

Yeah I don't think he understands how Boosters work. They do sap alot power and it's a constant you want the benefit it has to be on and using power. I gave up trying to even get one on my Vulture because even with my best balancing act I couldn't get usage down enough to even deploy hardpoints. This is a fully A-Specced Vulture so I am already using the most powerful PP I can get.

 

[Thebadmf]

SCB's are one of the many reasons PvE stays shallow. No threat means no fun, no fun means people start using the word grind a lot. Go figure.

No. Just no. Shooting things is not the only facet of Elite and even then 'your' complaint is just that you can't pop someone like this is counter strike take away SCB's and we may as well just play space invaders. SCB's provide a way to have 'tanks' and that is a good thing. That slow moving python or anaconda should not be popped by a lone vulture, you should have to work for your kill. You should have to coordinate your attacks to break through the defences. Especially in the case of the Annie, it's often described as a flying fortress and nerfing SCB's would dilute that.

My concern is when nerfs are continually made for 'PVP balance'. I don't give a flying (you know what) about PVP and frankly, it's inclusion is destroying a great series of games because the vocal minority of their players are just concerned about the FOTM OP before they move on to the next thing. Devs need to spent some time on features, pick some from FFE and work them into this game, for example:

• Spy missions to photograph an installation
• 'Base' destruction missions
• Passenger missions where assassins would come after you
• Proper branching missions or sequences
• Multiple styles of assassination mission where you have to be at a certain place, at the correct time to pick up the marks trail.
• Chargeable Ship transport
• Module storage
• Have ships not spawn like a fountain when you jump into an area - make there be believable routines for the NPC's to follow.
• Actual space battles near stations

I'm sure I can think of more but you get my point.

PS Elite has always been a grind, but a grind with many, complex paths and there's nothing wrong with that.

 

[Vasious]

No. Just no. Shooting things is not the only facet of Elite and even then 'your' complaint is just that you can't pop someone like this is counter strike take away SCB's and we may as well just play space invaders. SCB's provide a way to have 'tanks' and that is a good thing. That slow moving python or anaconda should not be popped by a lone vulture, you should have to work for your kill. You should have to coordinate your attacks to break through the defences. Especially in the case of the Annie, it's often described as a flying fortress and nerfing SCB's would dilute that.
.

If Power Plants are going to be no longer Insta Death, and armour useful along with hull reinforcement then the Heavies should be able to "Tank" beyond just stacking SCBs

You are right the game is more than just shooting things, but really a debate on SCB will revolve around that facet of it, heck even your list of features included shooting "'Base' destruction missions, Passenger missions where assassins would come after you, Multiple styles of assassination mission, Actual space battles near stations.

Don't consider a discussion on one aspect of game play an assertion that it is the only aspect of game play worth the Devs time

 

[Thebadmf]

If Power Plants are going to be no longer Insta Death, and armour useful along with hull reinforcement then the Heavies should be able to "Tank" beyond just stacking SCBs

You are right the game is more than just shooting things, but really a debate on SCB will revolve around that facet of it, heck even your list of features included shooting "'Base' destruction missions, Passenger missions where assassins would come after you, Multiple styles of assassination mission, Actual space battles near stations.

Don't consider a discussion on one aspect of game play an assertion that it is the only aspect of game play worth the Devs time

For me there is no SCB debate because IMO they are fine. I would rather have more PVE content (which all I listed are) rather than wasting time focusing on PVP balance.

 

[Vasious]

For me there is no SCB debate because IMO they are fine. I would rather have more PVE content (which all I listed are) rather than wasting time focusing on PVP balance.

But it isnt just PvP balance.
They don't seem to be balanced for PvE either.

If the Combat ships in PvE used Shield Cell Baks with as much stacking as Players do, would it be a good thing.

Yes someone said, "Oh but NPC are mass locked so it isn't apples and oranges on fairness" So?
That NPCs can jump without mass lock (which from what I have seen is incorrect anyway) that doesnt make it for tat
That we as player can stoack them so heavily seems to imbalance them to such a degree that NPCs are not going to be a challange

If in Every CZ the Asp had 4 shield cell banks each with several charges, they powered on as needed, would that be an improvement, as if they are indeed balanced, then the NPC should be allow to use them as we use them and for it to be call a good fight.

Would it really be?

Forget PvP, forget it entirely, how can you call something fine and balanced if it sways things massively in the favour the player vs the NPCs. Is the game really supposed to be the Hero Player slays the NPC mooks by the hundred without worry.

 

[shoom]

Sorr, but what is scb?

Yeah get it now. sorry.

 

[Vasious]

Sorr, but what is scb?

Shield Cell Bank

http://elite-dangerous.wikia.com/wiki/Shield_Cell_Bank

 

[Renegade Roach]

For me there is no SCB debate because IMO they are fine. I would rather have more PVE content (which all I listed are) rather than wasting time focusing on PVP balance.

Yeah, you're not paying attention I'm afraid. It's already been clearly explained as to why SCB are as much of a problem for pve as for pvp. Surprisingly the game wasn't like Space Invaders before scb were implemented, but it actually took skill and judgement to take on a larger ship, both in pve and pvp. You've been here long enough, by your join date, you ought to remember that unless you are being disingenuous.

It is also patently clear that a simple nerf to scb is not the right way to go. If, for example, they completely removed scb but reworked recharge rates to scale with base shields then it would not disadvantage larger ships. They would still have a significant defensive advantage. You need to step back from the paradigm which has been created by the security blanket of cell boosters and look at it from a neutral standpoint.