The New Guilds and Player Owned Stations Discussion Thread.

[Genar-Hofoen]

Not all Games with Guilds have been successfull. All sorts of diffrent games can be successful and no design will ever make every game that uses it successful. I just don't think "but others doing it!" is a good argument for anything, and if there already that many Games with Guild/Clan features then there are plenty of games where you can get what you what. Can't hurt to have one Game that offers something diffrent that people like me want, don't you think? Diversity in the Games market is a good thing.

Excellent point.

In fact I'd say ED not having in-game guild support might even be the breath of fresh air that attracts rather than repels new customers.

 

[SiriusSeven]

Not all Games with Guilds have been successfull. All sorts of diffrent games can be successful and no design will ever make every game that uses it successful. I just don't think "but others doing it!" is a good argument for anything, and if there already that many Games with Guild/Clan features then there are plenty of games where you can get what you what. Can't hurt to have one Game that offers something diffrent that people like me want, don't you think? Diversity in the Games market is a good thing.

Sure. I just wish it wasn't a space game that decided to buck the trend. They are too few and far between. I'd be all over EvE if only I could pilot my own damned ship in first person.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

Which doesn't detract from my statement at all. ED is not about the individual. Open play and private groups have been the focus of FD's attention from the beginning and the amount of player cooperation is set to expand exponentially as time goes on. Guilds can only complement and encourage the use of all of these upcoming features that people are eagerly anticipating.

If you want to fill your Anaconda with players to head out to a conflict zone, is it going to be easier to find pilots for every seat with or without guilds? Are you going to find more people you can reliably depend on with or without a tight social network of people you have gotten to know?

In your own words you already state that these guilds already organise themselves, despite not having in-game support for them.

So why the need to add in-game support at all, if this organising is already achievable?

And isn't it the case that anyone wishing to crew up in some future version of the game will still already be able to organise themselves in the same manner?

 

[Windscreen Smudge]

Not all Games with Guilds have been successfull. All sorts of diffrent games can be successful and no design will ever make every game that uses it successful.

You need to take a look around and see how many MMO's there are WITHOUT guild features.

The addition of one feature will not necessarily make a game successful long term, but the absence of one feature most certainly can cause it to fail.

In your own words you already state that these guilds already organise themselves, despite not having in-game support for them.

So why the need to add in-game support at all, if this organising is already achievable?

And isn't it the case that anyone wishing to crew up in some future version of the game will still already be able to organise themselves in the same manner?

Because it never lasts without the appropriate support. Go take a look at the Open PvE thread where you have Mobius members asking for their own play mode because they've outgrown the Private Group functions and are worried about the long term viability of remaining in a private group.

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

Not sure about how you'd control the numbers though. 1000 friends in a single channel and 200 of them online could be tricky perhaps for the p2p infrastructure?

IRC relay style comms hosted via FD. It's text - BW would be low so costs nominal.

If 200 people were talking and a 20 character line of text appears on average every second, first the screen would wizz by, sure, but the BW required at the server end would be (someone please correct me if I am wrong here) : 199 * 20 / 1024 = 3.8kb/s. Factor in some compression and perhaps that would be lower.

Slightly off topic I know (sorry Rob ) but this feature would complement what FD has and give people, on the whole, everything they need for a fully fledged guild without the drama.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

Sure. I just wish it wasn't a space game that decided to buck the trend. They are too few and far between. I'd be all over EvE if only I could pilot my own damned ship in first person.

EvE Valkyrie? I don't know much about that except from a trailer I watched recently.

 

[BurnyBurns]

The sale of sharp knives is restricted in the UK to buyers over the age of 18, presumably for this reason. Knife crime is no joke.

And despite abuse seemingly being an issue, the UK didn't chose to ban them altogether, preventing everybody from using them, but to implement measures to combat their abuse. As ineffective, as I suspect (?) this might turn out.

 

[Bomba Luigi]

You need to take a look around and see how many MMO's there are WITHOUT guild features.

The addition of one feature will not necessarily make a game successful long term, but the absence of one feature most certainly can cause it to fail.

As I said:

I just don't think "but others doing it!" is a good argument for anything

I also don't see why a Feature not being there should cause a fail, as long as that Feature is not something very fundamental like Controlls, Graphics or Audio.

 

[Earthshine]

IRC relay style comms hosted via FD. It's text - BW would be low so costs nominal.

If 200 people were talking and a 20 character line of text appears on average every second, first the screen would wizz by, sure, but the BW required at the server end would be (someone please correct me if I am wrong here) : 199 * 20 / 1024 = 3.8kb/s. Factor in some compression and perhaps that would be lower.

Slightly off topic I know (sorry Rob ) but this feature would complement what FD has and give people, on the whole, everything they need for a fully fledged guild without the drama.

Yes, you're right of course. I was trying to think of it in terms of what FD already had implemented without actually knowing the technical details

That's what I was thinking, it would be the basic essence of a guild without the potential problems imposed by exclusivity. Naturally it would make it easier to organise "undesirable" behaviour just as it would the inverse but I would find it hard to believe that the positives wouldn't outweigh the negatives in this case.

 

[Malpherian]

Is ED not enough of an example? It does not matter how many Games do this and that, all ED needs is ED to work. If its the only Game that works without that, or one of 2 or one of 100 - it does not matter.

No it isn;t because ED is the subject and can not be used as a refernce. It's called Circular Logic. You can't use the Bible as proof the the Bible is true, for example. Also ED's pop compared to other MMO's is staggeringly low, as well as it's sales numbers, and ED is not even a year old, and is still undergoing development and is seen on the whole by the industry as an "Incomplete Game". (Despite the fact it has been released).

- - - Updated - - -

I'd imagine one problem would be simply maintaining the members...

Who is in charge of membership? Who decides if Johnny - who hasn't logged on for two months - should get kicked from the group?

Who's going to decide Bob is being counter productive by purposefully undermining the groups achievements?





I've wondered about these issues myself. In my head I like the idea of groups working akin to a local faction in a station. Anything they do at that station benefits their position at that station (eg: trading or cashign in bounties). As their position improved they could dominate the local system and actualy take ownership of the local station(s). At that point their group/faction could then become a viable group/faction at neighbouring stations where the same process would begin there. So in effect they have a bubble of ownership/effect.

What I could never rationalise in my head is... why? There would need to be some sort of reward ultmately. eg: For any station they own, any visiting CMDR (& pretent virtual NPC calculated on station business) pay small docking fee (eg: 500CR), and that is then spread across all members etc... So if a group take over a busy station they could bey getting a nice regular income. But other groups could then take an interesting in taking the station over etc...

But I always saw too many issues/problems with any mechanics I could come up with


I always liked the idea of my group of friends trying to become a viable faction/group in a little station and getting a nice little financial reward from our efforts as other CMDRs passed through/used it.

You simply add a market module, or repair module or bullitain module to the station and anyone docking and useing your station services pays your guild/corp, just like the other stations work, instead of going to the NPC, the Moeny goes to you the Station owner.

This would also allow guilds to set up custom missions for players via their bullitin board and pay the players who do them just like the NPc stations do.


SEEE TONS OF NEW CONTENT!!!!!!!!

 

[Windscreen Smudge]

As I said:



I also don't see why a Feature not being there should cause a fail, as long as that Feature is not something very fundamental like Controlls, Graphics or Audio.

And if you go back and look at what I've been saying, I point out that it has very much been a fundamental feature in MMOs for at least 30 years. So yes, it's absence can cause serious problems, to the extent that Frontier has already recognized this and tried to work around it with other gameplay features while keeping to David's ideal of not having player organizations. The workarounds are not proving sufficient, they do nothing but raise constant complaints from the player base.

 

[Theodrid]

No it isn;t because ED is the subject and can not be used as a refernce. It's called Circular Logic. You can use the Bible as proof the the Bible is true, for example. Also ED's pop compared to other MMO's is staggeringly low, as well as it's sales numbers, and ED is not even a year old, and is still undergoing development and is seen on the whole by the industry as an "Incomplete Game". (Despite the fact it has been released).

The important part you are ignoring is the fact that DB and the team at Frontier are 'making the game they want to play'. I think it is fair to assume that DB and Frontier were, and still are, well aware that in 'making the game they want to play' that it would be fairly niche. I do not think for a second that any of the team behind this game ever expected, or possibly even wanted, Elite D to become a behemoth such as WoW or the like in terms of numbers. So, in short, trying to berate what was always going to be a fairly niche game for being a niche game is bizarre.

 

[Bomba Luigi]

No it isn;t because ED is the subject and can not be used as a refernce. It's called Circular Logic. You can use the Bible as proof the the Bible is true, for example. Also ED's pop compared to other MMO's is staggeringly low, as well as it's sales numbers, and ED is not even a year old, and is still undergoing development and is seen on the whole by the industry as an "Incomplete Game". (Despite the fact it has been released).

We are not talking about religion and beliefe here, but about things that can be measured. When ED is selling good, its selling good and it works fine as an example that a game like ED can sell good. Or do you mean even when it would sell more then GTA5 it would always be a failure as long as there is not a game like ED that is doing the same because we can't take ED as proof that ED is selling good?

How good Sales numbers are is very diffrent from Game to Game, what are good sale Numbers for WoW is very diffrent from what are good sale Numbers for ED.

 

[Scudmungus]

We are also concerned, however, that the kind of community that exists in this and other virtual worlds is far different from the notion of community that is rooted in the small, rural village of the past. Because of the anonymous and computer-mediated nature of the interactions that take place, we are concerned that the relationships that are formed are not negotiated carefully or completely. Moreover, it is possible that they are often superficial in character and easily abandoned by the participants at the first sign of difference. The World of Warcraft certainly provides an outlet for those people who are looking for a semblance of community. However, at the same time, it also provides an escape for those people who cannot (or would rather not) engage in the real communities that surround them.

http://www.computer.org/csdl/proceedings/hicss/2007/2755/00/27550179b.pdf

..character identity has a positive effect on self-esteem and game loyalty, while guild identity has a significant effect on self-esteem, flow and loyalty. Self-esteem affects the flow... It is suggested that positive self-esteem, which is built up through social support, can help gamers to achieve flow and reduces negative motivation.

http://www.computer.org/csdl/proceedings/hicss/2009/3450/00/07-08-05.pdf

Firstly, MMO-games can be seen as foci (Feld, 1981) for friendships, a structure around which relationship work can be performed. This implies that once the fociis lost, as agamer stops playing,the structure supporting the friendship is lost and often the friendship in turn falls apart. MMO friendships are created on the basis of a shared activity and this shared interestand social sphere is what keeps the friendship going. Secondly, friendships today are often defined as voluntary relationships defined by choice and lack of demands. These ideals of friendships conflict with the nature of MMO-games as rational structure that, contrary to first impression, rewards successful gamer groups instead of sociability. When these two ideals meet conflicts arise.

http://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:684017/FULLTEXT01.pdf

::

Fram de above - an dis just ickle slice of de research out dere, wi can read dat:

- Guilds not bad in an of demselves. Formin guild not magically makin people bad boys or causin trouble. Guild, call dem wat dey be, social structures, helpin people connect wen dey play.
- Anonymity an ease of access, tings we associate wid gamin, gat to be factored in. Any crazy can get into guild. Any crazy can be runnin guild. Truth, lotta nice guilds. Truth, crazy do mo damage!
- Guild in postion to significantly influence player enjoyment. Fun. CAN BE postive dey say, CAN HELP. Now recognize: Nobody presentin solution to encourage dis influence to be positive. Socially responsible. Respect.
- Many games where we seein guilds rewarding success, not sociability. So wi can get along fin, long as wi crush de content (be it environment, oder players of both). Trouble wid 'games fah boys' design mentality - gotta take oder/win aal de toys..
- Lotta dese researches obsessed wid WoW!

Wi aal welcome to read, pick up tings and present, no worries. Fah mi mind? Social systems, call dem Guilds if yuh like, can be positive, wonderful forces in gamin. Wat dis remind mi of? PEOPLE! People CAN be postive, wonderful experience in gamin. Yuh know wat? Dem not de problem. Mi findin only one at needed to undo alotta fun for many. Many ats? Many folks fun time bein undone. De mon gave bold example of GOON holding up EvE. Dis positive? Socialably resonsible? HA! Anoder testament to organizing larger numbers of ats. Remind mi history - not aal gat to be at, just enuff. De rest just go wid de flow, follow orders....

Till somone can present a system dat encouragesg gamin social system dat encourage postivity, responsibilty an accountability, den mi not seein de wisdom in droppin dem into play. Show me a social system dat doin dis - an de game dat support dis, an aal gud. Till then... hell no. Dis not to say dat Elite not gat problems, social an oderwise. Dis meanin wi gat no gud reason to add more fuel to de fire.

 

[M.E.A.T]

No it isn;t because ED is the subject and can not be used as a refernce. It's called Circular Logic. You can use the Bible as proof the the Bible is true, for example. Also ED's pop compared to other MMO's is staggeringly low, as well as it's sales numbers, and ED is not even a year old, and is still undergoing development and is seen on the whole by the industry as an "Incomplete Game". (Despite the fact it has been released).

- - - Updated - - -



You simply add a market module, or repair module or bullitain module to the station and anyone docking and useing your station services pays your guild/corp, just like the other stations work, instead of going to the NPC, the Moeny goes to you the Station owner.

This would also allow guilds to set up custom missions for players via their bullitin board and pay the players who do them just like the NPc stations do.


SEEE TONS OF NEW CONTENT!!!!!!!!

Well, if the condition is that your corp member cannot take up your own corp's mission, i.e., 100% rely on outsider to complete missions and you can use the rep system as in current BGS to expand/invade other systems then you have my vote. +1 btw

 

[Malpherian]

And what's to stop other people docking at your station in Solo, logging into Open, and lulzramming all the snug and happy guildies thinking they are all safe?

The station owner would be able to restrict docking rights.

to:

Public - Anyone can dock
Guild - Only Guild can dock
Rep Based (If they add a rep system) - Only those with said rep can dock, such as allied Corps or Guilds or individuals.

Closed - Only the owner can dock (If it's an individual owned station, this option wouldn't be listed on a Guild station)

 

[SiriusSeven]

The important part you are ignoring is the fact that DB and the team at Frontier are 'making the game they want to play'. I think it is fair to assume that DB and Frontier were, and still are, well aware that in 'making the game they want to play' that it would be fairly niche. I do not think for a second that any of the team behind this game ever expected, or possibly even wanted, Elite D to become a behemoth such as WoW or the like in terms of numbers. So, in short, trying to berate what was always going to be a fairly niche game for being a niche game is bizarre.

And yet they IPO'ed. Someone should probably let the stock holders know that ED is supposed to be small and niche.

 

[Theodrid]

And yet they IPO'ed. Someone should probably let the stock holders know that ED is supposed to be small and niche.

Like that is the only fire they are stoking........

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

Because it never lasts without the appropriate support. Go take a look at the Open PvE thread where you have Mobius members asking for their own play mode because they've outgrown the Private Group functions and are worried about the long term viability of remaining in a private group.

What proportion of those players comprise the now 10500+ members of the Mobius private group?

 

[Windscreen Smudge]

Snip.

Just want to say right now. If you aren't repping this man, you likely hate Kittens, Puppies, Grandmas, Freedom, or any combination thereof.