Open PvE

[Jockey79]

And PP is indeed PvP.

If you mean direct combat by saying PvP - then no. Direct player versus player combat is not encouraged or rewarded in PP
If you focus on nothing but direct PvP then you do nothing at all for your power.

Now if you mean indirect PvP - by playing the environment such as moving items from one station to another, or NPC hunting - then you're right.

And instead of requesting a whole new mode, why not first taking some easy solutions? A simple "allow every player to join a group without request" option would do it for mobius (never played in it, nor every will). The host haven't got to be online and in addition with some mod tools (kick, etc.), a group can be managed like a private server.

You can have a mode that does not require anyone to accept - problem is, if you kick a griefer - then they can just join again and you cannot stop them.
Hence having to use the one that requires authorisation.

 

[Commander Debic]

Originally Posted by Windscreen Smudge There is a very large and popular group of players in many other games that functions on this same ethos, and has been very successful for years now. You may have heard of them as GoonSwarm. Their dirty little secret is that they are not a PvP primary gaming community, not even in Eve Online. They are PvE primary and the PvP side is just there to facilitate that.

It only works AFTER you have a large group of players, because only then do you start to draw enough attention, and thus create enough content, to keep a small section of PvP oriented players busy.

Goonswarm not a PVP group in Eve, never have I heard such rot.
Smaller groups of their CFC coalition of alliances and corps practice PVE for one aim, to make all the weapons and equipment they need to practice their raids on Haulers, miners and systems in Hi Sec, Lo sec and Null sec, to manipulate the price of markets against other players. To extend their territory against other PVP groups in Null and lo sec. To dominate all of Eve by causing as much destruction as they can, against other players and player alliances with their incessant PVP wars, and write the rules and gameplay of Eve to suit their own PVP game.
That is Eve and it is their game, you don't agree with them, tough we will gank you out of the game if we want to, that is pretty much their creed. I have a sneaking admiration for them, but for you to be so disingenuous as to pretend that Goonswarm are primarily PVE is laughable, and means you believe their sardonic own literature that they are a PVE group.

 

[Vasious]

As an Aside
If there was a new Open PvE Mode, it should be called/subtitled as Pilots' Federation Rules
We are all Cmdrs of the Pilots Federation, and that comes first, so regardless of what Power or Faction is hiring you when you come across another Cmdr, there are a salute/waggle of the wings/flash of lights and you both go off to fight only the non members

Since friendly fire in disabled for Wings a similar flag in the open PvE environment might be able to be applied, freeing the need for policing

 

[Herik]

You say most PVE players play in Mobius. What you actually have is 0.022% of the ED player base or which you have 10 or so REALLY Vocal members who will post and post about how many players want PVE to the point that you forget its the same 10 in rotation in both threads.

When a PVP or Open advocate walks in, they are instantly told that they are the minority and that its in fact the PVE players who are the chosen children of Braben.
That we have been playing the game wrong because it was apparently never intended for players to fight each other and infact Elite Dangerous is a game based around NPC Trophy collecting. A huge number of different PVP players have posted in both this and the Open Vs Solo thread, but are silenced under the shear weight of the quotations and scare mongering from the Mobius 10

That it appears all the many many more people that are in Open that between griefing and player killing, are unable to use Google to find out if there is alternative.

So the VERY vocal number of players of a really minor cross section of the game, want their own special button because they want EVERYTHING that is available to them in OPEN but in a way that isn't going to inconvenience them in anyway shape or form.

Because these 10 or so, have their own special reasons why OPEN is broken and why anyone who wants to indulge in PVP has mental issues, is a moron, is a real life pyscho and I believe in one post that we might be Autistic. ( They even put up a test so I could test myself, I'm not but thanks for worrying )

If you try to explain that PVP in Open is rare, you get told it isn't.
If you explain that if you avoid hot areas know for PVP, you get told well, they should have the right to go there.
If you compare the interactions between being attacked by an NPC and a Human you get told its not the same because the human knows what their doing.
If you dare point out how much easier it is in PVE they get all defensive and rabbit on about how its just as hard....

So the best thing you can do is what I am doing, just support their vision.

Offer them moral support and if need be, lessons on how to play the game in the main mode ( oh but DB said every mode is equal quote on route )

Try not to have an opinion that doesn't align with their vision, because 0.022% of registered ( Not actively playing mind ) members of a group want the entire game changed around them.

And I get called Egotistical

Majinvash

Yes, we like numbers. I like to state the data differently; -from the last 'group' page, Moebius is just edging 11,000 members.

And then you have the pure Solo players, who don't PvP and are just as rabidly devoted to the forums as the PvP players. And then you have the 'crossovers' who play consistently both Open (and) Solo; these folks are just as active on the forums as pure Open players. And you also have the 'seldom players' from all modes (on the forums) who are just as mouthy as any of us. But (although not quantifiable), you also have the great 'non forumed' who make up (all modes) and for their own reasons don't use the forums. They are all players.

So we have all players playing the game who think they want everything that 'Open' players have in this game.

Yes, your right, the best thing you can do is support the vision. Unfortunately, I Think Majinvash your assumptions on the validity of your opinions based on the numbers is questionable.

 

[Vasious]

And I get called Egotistical

Majinvash

I have only been following this thread for the last day or so since it have been slow here, but you do talk about yourself in such a self aggrandising manner, and seem to one across as someone trying to present themselves as a new Prometheus bring fire to the mortals.

If people want their place to play, people want their place to play.
I don't think you will ever convenience them you coming in a kicking over their sand castles will make the game world more fun for them, just because it give you a buzz.

Add to that you keep calling them a minority, so that should mean they bow to your will, and the egotism is pretty much a justified label there, as it is, by your accounts, about you and you game, and people playing it your way for you.

The thread is about people asking for a better way for a PvE group to be managed on the logistic and UI side.
It already exists, nothing changes that, but it would be easier to administer.
This is no different from any other group or friends management improvement suggestion.
The group management is just seemly to large for the current method, that is fine for smaller group

The assumption the people must think Open is broken or full of PvP psychos for them to want to play in a group is flawed.
Sometimes you just want to play with a group of people you know and not get interrupted.

Where a PvE Open group exists for not does not affect open at all, as it would just be a revamp on Mobius and what ever other groups if others joined, but without the logistics and administration lumped on one player volunteer.

 

[Majinvash]

Yes, we like numbers. I like to state the data differently; -from the last 'group' page, Moebius is just edging 11,000 members.

And then you have the pure Solo players, who don't PvP and are just as rabidly devoted to the forums as the PvP players. And then you have the 'crossovers' who play consistently both Open (and) Solo; these folks are just as active on the forums as pure Open players. And you also have the 'seldom players' from all modes (on the forums) who are just as mouthy as any of us. But (although not quantifiable), you also have the great 'non forumed' who make up (all modes) and for their own reasons don't use the forums. They are all players.

So we have all players playing the game who think they want everything that 'Open' players have in this game.

Yes, your right, the best thing you can do is support the vision. Unfortunately, I Think Majinvash your assumptions on the validity of your opinions based on the numbers is questionable.

Do you have any figures to back up your assumptions that my assumptions based on figures that ARE available are wrong?

Majinvash

 

[Herik]

This already exists - search for and try to join the "Robert Maynard" open group - it should let you straight in (if I created it properly).

However.... Given certain events that have already happened in the Mobius Private Group, I would not expect that open access to a PvE group (with no automatic kicking for engaging in PvP) would be a particularly good idea!

You've got my interest; no promises, but I'll check it out.

 

[Crimson Kaim]

I would not expect that open access to a PvE group (with no automatic kicking for engaging in PvP) would be a particularly good idea!

True, I didn't consider that. :O

 

[Herik]

Do you have any figures to back up your assumptions that my assumptions based on figures that ARE available are wrong?

Majinvash

Yes, well that is my point, I don't trust the numbers. -I have opinions and I like numbers, but only as puzzles; I won't make assumptions based on numbers in RL.

 

[Jockey79]

Since there is no 'filter' on who can join this PvE group, I assume any known opponent to PvE can join and undermine it, yes?

That is the point being made, without access control - it is not a PvE group, as anyone can PvP as much as they want, no restrictions.
However with access control, people are not so keen to break any agreements as they can be removed and not joni back in - thus restrictions apply.

This is why we'd like FD to run a true Open PvE mode, so all players can see / use it, and not have to worry about unwanted PvP.
Anyone who tries (or does) to force player killing, can be removed from the mode permanently.

 

[Imperial Guard]

Open vs Solo will be a never ending topic.

Nevertheless, the hunt for enemy commanders and pirates continues....

 

[Jockey79]

Thank you. Just wanted to be clear. Some may have difficulty reading between the lines.

Some have difficulty reading the lines, never mind in between them

 

[Jockey79]

Damn. I actually did, 'Laugh Out Loud' at that.

Would have been better without the typo

Read / Reading*

Turns out, some have difficulty typing as well
lol

 

[Cody]

<sniggers>

 

[Herik]

No, it's very simple. I've broken it down several times in this thread, I'll do it once more.

Open PvE will come with severe drawbacks. It'll be a shining red target in the starting menu for every griefer to aim at. You will not get away from harassment to the same degree that you have in Mobius. There will be problems and troublemakers, and it will occur frequently. Many people speaking in support of this option have accepted that inevitability and said it's still worth it simply for the convenience and to draw more players in.

So if you can accept that level of risk, then it's reasonable to assume that you can also accept the risk of moving back to open if the rate of PvP is significantly decreased through your own efforts.

IF you chose to go back to open you have the largest group of players under one banner in the game. Period. By orders of magnitude. If 10% of that group decided to work together towards a common goal you could have significant influence in the game. First and foremost you have the ability to attract people. The first people you're going to attract is going to be the pirates, naturally. That's fine, because being the largest player group means you will have no problem attracting PvPers under your banner. Having your own security will reduce the rate of PvP as long as you keep your own PvPers interested in providing assistance. That comes in the form of them being entertained, so the important factor is to have someone competent organizing the PvPers. When the pressure lets up, they've got to start applying pressure of their own and spread the zone of influence until they have difficulty maintaining it. If it's challenging, they'll stay entertained.

Now you have a zone of influence in which the threat to the PvE players is significantly reduced, and they can do what they wish. If they wish to do so outside of the zone of influence that can be done one of two ways. Reputation and assistance. Reputation comes from being consistent and decisive in allowing your PvP members to commit to retributive actions. If people keep getting blacklisted for harassing your members outside your zone of influence, they'll stop harassing them, and thus your zone of influence spreads. Etc and so on....

There is a very large and popular group of players in many other games that functions on this same ethos, and has been very successful for years now. You may have heard of them as GoonSwarm. Their dirty little secret is that they are not a PvP primary gaming community, not even in Eve Online. They are PvE primary and the PvP side is just there to facilitate that.

It only works AFTER you have a large group of players, because only then do you start to draw enough attention, and thus create enough content, to keep a small section of PvP oriented players busy.

YES ! The Goonswarm; the game destroyers. Your right, it only works if the group gets large enough. God! I and thousands hated Eve.

 

[Herik]

It sounds like you are saying that Guilds are the only possible saviour of Open.... If that's the price, I would expect that some would sadly let Open pass on rather than pay it.

As to Open-PvE - yes, there would be infiltrations - with full reimbursement of adversely affected players and auto-kicking of PvP initiators, their actions could be reduced to an annoyance.

Regarding Open-PvE and (decisive) action taken on PvP initiators why is it that I think FD might step in and have a say at this point...Perhaps, but only allowing the 'shadow banning' steps?

Of course that wouldn't be decisive and for Windscreens initiative, not effective.

 

[Herik]

That is the point being made, without access control - it is not a PvE group, as anyone can PvP as much as they want, no restrictions.
However with access control, people are not so keen to break any agreements as they can be removed and not joni back in - thus restrictions apply.

This is why we'd like FD to run a true Open PvE mode, so all players can see / use it, and not have to worry about unwanted PvP.
Anyone who tries (or does) to force player killing, can be removed from the mode permanently.

But would FD want to bother with this? Its these whole questions of really tackling and manning a virtual monitoring station, Shadowbanning steps -good enough? Same question as in the main game.

 

[Herik]

Of course Guilds are here - I would expect that a game without them is an almost irresistible draw - especially if they consider that the Developers could be swayed into accommodating their requests to significantly change the game.

I will agree to disagree with you on your contention that Mobius Private Group is a Guild.

I am not denying Guilds - I am against facilitating them with in-game features.

As long as there are three (or more) game modes and the ability to switch between them on a session-by-session basis (and even then, if forced to choose one mode it would be Private Groups for very obvious reasons), I have no need to uninstall the game.

It's true, for all intents and purposes 'Guilds' as these persons want to use them; would be (almost) toothless, -not effecting the game behavior of those not interested...except other 'Open not interested' players...

Sorry, <chuckle> -more driving folks into Solo/Moebius, which of course would'nt be 'Open' for them.

 

[Windscreen Smudge]

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Windscreen Smudge [url]https://forums.frontier.co.uk/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png[/URL] There is a very large and popular group of players in many other games that functions on this same ethos, and has been very successful for years now. You may have heard of them as GoonSwarm. Their dirty little secret is that they are not a PvP primary gaming community, not even in Eve Online. They are PvE primary and the PvP side is just there to facilitate that.

It only works AFTER you have a large group of players, because only then do you start to draw enough attention, and thus create enough content, to keep a small section of PvP oriented players busy.

Goonswarm not a PVP group in Eve, never have I heard such rot.
Smaller groups of their CFC coalition of alliances and corps practice PVE for one aim, to make all the weapons and equipment they need to practice their raids on Haulers, miners and systems in Hi Sec, Lo sec and Null sec, to manipulate the price of markets against other players. To extend their territory against other PVP groups in Null and lo sec. To dominate all of Eve by causing as much destruction as they can, against other players and player alliances with their incessant PVP wars, and write the rules and gameplay of Eve to suit their own PVP game.
That is Eve and it is their game, you don't agree with them, tough we will gank you out of the game if we want to, that is pretty much their creed. I have a sneaking admiration for them, but for you to be so disingenuous as to pretend that Goonswarm are primarily PVE is laughable, and means you believe their sardonic own literature that they are a PVE group.

All of this is true, but when you break the numbers down the number of PvE players in Goonswarm to the number of PvP is about 12 to 1.

I used to spend some time hunting the 12 and running from the 1. If you played Eve then you know that their own literature says they are a PvP group, and they have some nasty things to say about carebears. You also know that they have some serious propaganda going on. Head counts tell you what the population really is.

 

[PhazonAran]

and they have some nasty things to say about carebears.

Good thing this is not EvE, this kind of people is not needed.