NO to "third party tools" for ED

[maddavo]

Hey, anyone try this trade route finder lately?

It's BOUNCY! BOUNCY! BOUNCY!

http://etn.io/

Ah yeah - ETN looks great and is so easy to use. There are some very creative and skilled commanders out there.

I remember when you could only do one jump at a time in the GM. Trading in rare items was very difficult due to the 150Ly distances to navigate. I used to use http://starchart.club/map/ . I really like how it takes fuel stops into account if necessary. Nothing worse than being stranded out in the black with a hold full of rares.

Of course my tool of choice is TD with the GUI front end.

I have not seen any tool that tracks Blackmarket prices. I just use a spreadsheet. My max legal trade is 1.8M but I managed to smuggle a T9 full of Imperial Slaves for 2.5M. So I'd like to experiment more with smuggling. We need a tool for that.

 

[Cmdr Ryushui]

Hi all,

@ OP...

It's just an opinion, maybe right, maybe wrong.. Its an opinion.

I dont use the trading tools at all, (but there are bits of bloody paper everywhere haha) but it's up to you.

Use, Don't use.. I don't think it matters, You purchased the game, you can play how you want.. above all just enjoy yourself.

The community is actually really cool, (fuel rats etc) and really like the popcorn replies by the way, am still smiling. This is why I play.. for fun.

 

[Jockey79]

I pointed out that there’s frequent contention online about the “right” way to play, be it casual or hard-core, and Braben agreed. “But there shouldn’t be a ‘right’ way,” he said. “You should do what makes you excited. I don’t want there to be a ‘right’ way, because then you’re not necessarily playing the way you want to play. And people have come up with lots of suggestions, some of them very constructive and sensible, and we do listen, and people hopefully have seen that we’ve changed things and adjusted things, but not in a way—we hope!—to upset people. We’re doing it to make the game better!”

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2015/0...-david-braben/


​That clear enough?

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2015/0...-david-braben/


​That clear enough?

One is PR, another is game design. Game is designed to be played in certain way - there's no way around it. You can use info sharing, but your experience will differ heavily for intended one.

- - - Updated - - -

Btw, guys you can boost trade tools if you like - as I said, I don't want to force anyone - but better go out and create own thread

 

[Jockey79]

Game is designed to be played in certain way - there's no way around it.

As you clearly want to ignore my point let me try this another way.

The game does not come with pen and paper, there is no pen and paper in the game.
Frontier do not make notepads, they do not make pencils or pens.

Writing tools and items to write on, are 3rd party tools.
I can write down every where I've been and pass that paper on to a friend or even photo copy it and post it out to people (and the postal service is not run by Frontier either, so another 3rd party involved).

Also, groups like CODE use their own personal forums - not run by Frontier, so that would also be 3rd party tools they use to help them with their in game activities. And Reddit seems to be popular, also not by Frontier, so also a 3rd party tool.

Are we banning Reddit?

 

[Theodrid]

Are we banning Reddit?

'Oh please Dad, can we, can we?'

 

[OamodSias]

'Oh please Dad, can we, can we?'

Seconded.

 

[Sapient6]

The only trade data being given off is the prices; players update price lists with what's currently listed at the station they're docked to. Slopey's and Thrudd's, for example, then use this data to analyse the most financially lucrative commodity from one station to another (this data is usually old as well, some data I've seen is over 150 days).

Yes, I understand the tools and the concepts involved.

I happen to think there's a fundamental problem with introducing this data directly into the game. Specifically, the game was designed (perhaps naively), around the idea that part of the game play would involve the player doing the leg work. A lot of players don't want that portion of the game play, but there's also plenty of us that do. If you inject this data directly into the game, then you're making the game a lot shallower for those of us who appreciate the intended design. Cutting it out for yourself is one thing, cutting it out for everyone is something else entirely.

If FDev does such a thing they better ADD something at the same time. I enjoy trading because I enjoy locating my own trade routes. When I find my own trade routes I don't want anyone else to find them simply because I did. Take that out and there is nothing left in trading for me to enjoy, you've killed it completely. I'm not alone in this considering the vast numbers of people who label trading as a "grind".

If you want to share your route, that's fine. If you don't, that's fine too; but from what I've seen, the only information available in apps like the aforementioned, is which routes give the best returns - information that should already be in the game in the form of say, a market.

I think a UI laid out in an easy to understand way, with price ups/downs, buying prices, selling prices all on a per system basis would be excellent - as well as perhaps a complete overview of the entire galaxy, updated every hour or whatever. This would perhaps negate the need for the gamers to do the work of the developers.

That's nice, but seriously, what does that leave of trading that is worthwhile beyond just adding numbers to your bank account?

 

[maddavo]

Game is designed to be played in certain way - there's no way around it.

I acknowledge that is your observation and your reality. My reality is that Braben's philosophy of the game's design was for it to be open and played in a multitude of ways. I think that one of the key features of the game is the expansive freedom that it offers to play any way you want, and there are many ways around the development and implementation limitations that have presented themselves along the way. It is very clear that there were some things that were intended to be implemented but weren't or just haven't been implemented yet. Indeed, the developers themselves have even provided information and assisted 3rd party developers along the way.

You can use info sharing, but your experience will differ heavily for intended one.

I encourage you to express what your experience is of the game, I think we are all interested to hear from fellow commanders on that. I disagree that you are in a position to assess what my experience is or will be with respect to what you think is intended - my reality is mine, yours is yours. I think it's fair to say that each commander's experience will be different. I will have a different experience if I do different things and our opinions of what is intended is probably different.

I find myself trying to drill down past the minutia and understand what is the fundamental difference between our realities. I think a number of your comments are about what your concept of the game is - what you imagine to be the 'intent' of the game and thereby leading to how the game should be played. It appears to me that the 'intention' of the game is very important to you. But what if the intention of the game is actually different to what you think? I think that if you asked 20 different commanders what the intention of ED was then you'd get 20 different answers. I think there's ED lore and there's ED implementation. The continued development and evolution of ED and the continued implementation of more lore into ED indicates to me that the 'intent' of the game is larger than what is currently implemented, it is fluid and evolving. Some of the intent has been curtailed - be it by technology, budget or timeframe. I'd even suggest that some of the intent just doesn't exist yet, as creative minds will no doubt come together at some stage and come up with something exciting and new to implement in a future expansion pack.

 

[lenna]

When I find my own trade routes I don't want anyone else to find them simply because I did. Take that out and there is nothing left in trading for me to enjoy, you've killed it completely.

Short answer - if you found something it is inevitable that at some point someone else will, if it is lucrative then word will get around eventually (regardless of the presence or absence of trade data tools). Get used to the idea, if you are not happy with it then you need to probably examine why you play the game in the first place IMO.

I'm not alone in this considering the vast numbers of people who label trading as a "grind".

Grind is typically defined as repeating exactly the same activity over and over again and normally when used in this kind of context getting no enjoyment out of it, it sounds more like you (and people like yourself) would get more enjoyment out of general opportunistic trading tied in with exploration of populated systems. Repeating the same trade route ad-nauseum is generally what most people would consider grind, finding new trade routes and capitalising on them for just a period of time on the other hand is generally not. If you don't use such tools yourself, then the presence or usage of such tools should not really affect the sense of discovery. The fact that there is information out there that could have found that information quicker if not almost instantly should be irrelevant, you can take pride in that you put in the effort to find it yourself.
--
There are only two points to trading in any game like Elite really:-

1. Build up reputation with the factions being interacted with (or some other in-game political goal perhaps)
2. Obtain in-game currency to do with as you wish in-game

--
Even with a full-blown economic simulation the primary goal of trading is - earning in-game credits either for kudos or to buy in-game goods/services.
--
Discovery of unique/profitable trading opportunities is more an exploration thing than actually a trading thing - the trading aspect only has one goal really and that is to earn in-game credits.
--
ED is not Eve nor X (both of which have full on economy models of some sort) and I hope FD do not plan to turn into something like them either. ED may eventually add to or extend the economy aspects but lets not forget that trading is primarily about earning money and nothing beyond that really.

 

[Buglet]

Jus curious. If, today, in the early 21st century, we are able to make a trade database such as elitetradingtool.co.uk , what makes you think it wouldn't be possible in whatever year Elite is set in? Just because the tool isn't coded into the game doesn't make it any less logical / viable.

When I trade, I like to make a big profit - that's why I trade, and I don't find any degree of satisfaction in "finding my own routes" and playing vanilla". These 3rd party tools let me enjoy the game more because they allow me to do what I love (making profit!) more easily. Without these tools trading would be, for me, a big grind with not as good benefit. Also, a trading tool such as that is a perfectly realistic convenience to expect in such a world of Elite. Hell, I can go on my laptop and see how much Argos is selling a tent for, so why can't I check how much Lave sells crop harvesters for?

 

[Khelder]

I happen to think there's a fundamental problem with introducing this data directly into the game. Specifically, the game was designed (perhaps naively), around the idea that part of the game play would involve the player doing the leg work. A lot of players don't want that portion of the game play, but there's also plenty of us that do. If you inject this data directly into the game, then you're making the game a lot shallower for those of us who appreciate the intended design. Cutting it out for yourself is one thing, cutting it out for everyone is something else entirely.
...
When I find my own trade routes I don't want anyone else to find them simply because I did.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't this problem exist, in a sense, with exploration data? If I go and 'discover' new astronomical objects and even scan them, sell that data, that's it for everyone isn't it? If some new person decides to join the game for the first time a couple of years down the track, will they find that there is nothing left for them to 'discover'? I thought this was weird, but I don't see a way around it.

I believe I understand the reluctance to have instant data from locations that are undiscovered by that player. The only real balance to that with crowdsourced data is that the data quite often isn't current (it's often months old). It becomes almost a valuable service if someone happens to venture out to remote stations to update price data. And there are still a lot of stations where data simply doesn't exist.

I don't want to see a state where live game data is available to everyone throughout the game instantly. While that would be plausible - markets would want to advertise. I prefer the community aspect to it.

 

[maddavo]

That's nice, but seriously, what does that leave of trading that is worthwhile beyond just adding numbers to your bank account?

Ah, well, although I sense that may have been somewhat rhetorical, I will answer as follows:

My experience is that the trading tools have encouraged me to visit places that I otherwise would not have visited. I have found my own trade runs and exploited them for a while. Then using a tool it suggested a route from there to somewhere else. So I might go visit there and explore the systems along the way. I have also used tools to trade along the way to a specific destination. I've been to all corners of inhabited space in this manner. I have enjoyed visiting all the new places and also doing loops when a particularly profitable pair of stations comes up. Then move on to somewhere else.

Spoiler

Hey, this is a real spoiler. If you're hardcore then close this immediately as the following information is only available via 3rd party tools.

There are nearly 40822 stations in 19010 systems in inhabited space. Even now nearly a year after we started in Gamma, we've only recorded prices at 17857 markets in 10171 systems. There are still about 18k markets unvisited (well, unrecorded - they may well have been visited). About 4k stations don't have markets.

For me, it's not only about using the data that we have for existing stations to generate trade runs, it's also about visiting new stations and gather data about new systems/stations and recording prices and adding to the data to use in tools. I enjoy gathering data - visiting new unvisited places. Many times I have visited a station and open up the "Traffic Report" for the local system and see that I am the only ship to visit there! Then I post the prices for the station, I might stay there for a while trading, then I notice some other commanders visit, I talk to them - they've been drawn there by the new prices that I've shared, we join a wing to do some trading in a convoy. I've had tremendous fun meeting new people this way and trading in convoys.

Would I have had these extra enjoyable experiences without 3rd party tools? Probably not. Would my experience have been different had I not used 3rd party tools? Well, yes I think that follows. Is it intended that commanders have such experiences in ED? I think that some commanders are very concerned about what they think the 'intent' of the game is whereas I tend to concern myself with what I find enjoyable.

 

[Khelder]

My experience is that the trading tools have encouraged me to visit places that I otherwise would not have visited.

Yes. I have on numerous occasions stared at the galaxy map having no idea where I wanted to go. I have used a location for a trade far away from me as a replacement for a random selection. And I quite often take the economical route and discover/scan stuff along the way.

For me, it's not only about using the data that we have for existing stations to generate trade runs, it's also about visiting new stations and gather data about new systems/stations and recording prices and adding to the data to use in tools. I enjoy gathering data - visiting new unvisited places.

And, yes! I love data collection. I have said it before. It feels awesome (to me at least) to contribute to a community effort like this. I treat it as a whole new profession.

 

[Sapient6]

Short answer - if you found something it is inevitable that at some point someone else will, if it is lucrative then word will get around eventually (regardless of the presence or absence of trade data tools). Get used to the idea, if you are not happy with it then you need to probably examine why you play the game in the first place IMO.

There is a vast gulf between someone finding the same trade route because they have access to my data, and finding it because they just found it. One of those things I have an issue with, the other doesn't matter to me at all. I'd suggest you to guess which one bothers me, but you wouldn't have to guess if you were responding to what I wrote instead of responding to whatever imaginary thing it is you are arguing against here.

Grind is typically defined as

REALLY?

Then you go on to tell me what I will enjoy and what the point of playing any aspect of the game is. Sounds like you have a lot in common with the OP.

 

[wolverine2710]

I very much like how (currently) the communication is. NOT biased, hostile but open, polite, respectful and friendly. REALLY great.

Wrt Maddavo being all around the Universe. Its true!! I've found this back in my "What is the most efficient way to crowdsource the 3D system coordinates" thread. I've seen a better (more finished) picture somewhere but can't find it back. @Maddavo, could you tell me what third party tool is displaying that picture ;-)

Spoiler

Going to dig up some numbers about EDDN usage. In combination with the numbers supplied by Maddavo it will give a clear(er) picture about how much data is crowd sourced. More importantly, the impact/influence of trading tools on the market. Hint: Its minor because there is relative little data.....

 

[Otis B.]

Going to dig up some numbers about EDDN usage. In combination with the numbers supplied by Maddavo it will give a clear(er) picture about how much data is crowd sourced. More importantly, the impact/influence of trading tools on the market. Hint: Its minor because there is relative little data.....

Using the numbers from here there have been ~100,000 station reports to EDDN since May 5th (and Madavo tops the charts). This doesn't tell us how many different stations have been reported. George Lucas has been reported hundreds of times but in my neck of the woods many stations have never been reported.

 

[maddavo]

There is a vast gulf between someone finding the same trade route because they have access to my data, and finding it because they just found it. One of those things I have an issue with...

This is interesting and I'd like to explore this further with you. When you say there is a vast gulf - do you mean a vast gulf for yourself or a vast gulf for the other person? I get a sense that it matters deeply to you how other people come across the same trade route as you. My question is why? Is your enjoyment of the game affected? (NOT what you imagine the enjoyment of the other person to be) How is your gameplay affected? Does the trade route become less satisfying to you if someone else is doing the same run? Do you prefer being the lone trader at a station? OR if the vast gulf refers to the other person then why does what happens in someone else's mind matter so deeply to you? Is it possible that part of you has a compulsion to live vicariously through others and so does it follow that you are very concerned about what others think and what they do with respect to how you imagine others should be playing? Have you heard of co-dependence?

I am genuinely interested to understand. For me, I am a tad co-dependent - probably why I am interested. But with respect to trading this manifests in a genuine enjoyment in helping others and meeting others in a group or community of traders and this also goes hand in hand with accepting their help. Sure I enjoy finding my own trade route, but I also enjoy getting a tip from someone else or a tool.

 

[Monk]

@maddavo

I know that when I see another Anaconda or Type-9 jump on to the route I'm working on, it turns in to a race for me. Who has the better range, who can land faster...who can get more trades done before it taps out for the evening. I think it is pretty fun. Though, I do sometimes like to trade by myself and not be bothered. I have some runs in my back pocket that I don't share, for that very purpose.

 

[Lex Looter]

Trading in this game is interactive, engaging, consistent, and believable. It's also a lot of fun, and can be quite exciting.

Interactivity? Sure, you do get to navigate menus and peruse lists and even push a few buttons.

Engaging? That's a subjetive criterion, we can't evaluate it objectively, so I'll just go with NO because I know it will make you pout.

Consistent? Definitely not. There's ample evidence of that. Check THIS out. I've described a similar experience myself, in this very thread.

Believable? I guess it depends on how much you want to believe. It does have some nice touches, like floating prices according to supply and demand, but on the other hand you have wealthy systems with five billion people living in them and no module above class 3. Why is that? Rich people don't like nice ships just because they happen to live in an agricultural economy?

And how come 5 million people working in a high-tech system can't offer more than a few thousand units a day of only one or two high-tech commodities? I mean, it's a space station, it's 3301, it's supposed to be full of assembly bots, and yet the output is a fraction of what could be accomplished by the inhabitants themselves, armed with toolboxes and some elbow grease.

Not only it goes against basic principles of economics and virtually all the best practices of marketing and sales, it's also full of artificial scarcity, with the explicit goal of extending your travelling time. I suppose some people would find that kind of time sink delightful, but I'd like to spend more time actually trading, rather than just running around.