Oculus Rift SDK update

[Borobudur]

SDK 0.7, ELITE and Rift DK2

Come on FD, please give us support for 0.7 Runtime, I know you can do it!

Without Prejudice

Dear Sir or Madam,

I am writing this message on behalf of Oculus Rift DK2 users who have upgraded to SDK 0.7 runtime.

Oculus Rift DK2 was sold as a Development Kit, and thus was purchased as a product "in development". The purchaser would expect that all aspects of that item would function satisfactorily as advertised, with the caveat being that if there were any aspects that were not fit for purpose, those aspects would be referred to the developers in order to improve the final consumer product. That, in essence, is what development is.

Elite Dangerous, on the other hand, was sold as a final product on the back of a heavily marketed VR campaign, with at least 10% of the Kickstarter backers being VR users. A greater percentage of end product purchasers were/are Oculus Rift DK2 users.

Therefore, many consumers and backers to David Braben's Frontier Developments PLC have been left stranded by the very product they sought to support.

On behalf of DK2 users, we request the immediate upgrade of Elite Dangerous in order that it may be accessed by all VR consumers, whether users of Oculus Rift DK2 or otherwise. Since the Oculus runtime update (SDK 0.7)/Win 10 update, the end consumer has been unable to use a product which was purchased in good faith from Frontier Developments Ltd, and which previously functioned perfectly as advertised. However, it would now appear that Frontier Developments Ltd have reneged on their initial advertised promise and therefore failed to deliver a product which is fit for purpose as advertised. This failure may give rise to a legal action against Frontier Developments Ltd.


On behalf of VR users, I look forward to an expedient resolution to this issue in the form of an ED update which permits end users to enjoy your product to its advertised capacity.


Regards

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

This failure may give rise to a legal action against Frontier Developments Ltd.

Regards

lol mate... come off it!. I want updated VR support as much as the next person. I WILL NOT play ED outside of the rift, and if we were talking no support of the consumer version I may even agree with you.... but even I can see you have no leg to stand on here, and threats like this are just laughable really.

If we all keep asking politely maybe FD will give over a few extra dev hrs into getting it working, but threats of legal action I am pretty sure will not.

until the final rift drivers are set in stone I can absolutely see why FD would be reticent to potentially "waste" too much time on doing what could be dead work. Kunos have said the same thing with Assetto corsa.

Oculus have said once SDK 1.0 comes out, all future SDK versions will be fully backwards compatible, however until then they warn devs that they may make changes which fully break older titles. With this in mind, and with so much work still to do with ED, I can see why FD do not want to waste time... even if personally I hope they choose to anyway.

but be aware, supporting beta rift drivers is a labour of love and NOT any legal obligation to us, after all we are all devs who bought the DK2 to get our OWN project working and not to play games on right??****

(we did all tick the box to say as such before buying)


***** For the record I cant program for toffee!

 

[Slopey]

/Mod hat off....

Oculus Rift DK2 was sold as a Development Kit, and thus was purchased as a product "in development". The purchaser would expect that all aspects of that item would function satisfactorily as advertised, with the caveat being that if there were any aspects that were not fit for purpose, those aspects would be referred to the developers in order to improve the final consumer product. That, in essence, is what development is.

Your caveat is wrong. The DK2 was sold as a development kit, yes, but FOR developers to use and test their products with. If the DK2 isn't fit for purpose, it's nothing to do with Frontier - further more, they're not duty bound to make it work with the developer kits. It wasn't created so you could feed back to 3rd party "developers" - it was FOR YOU as the developer to test with, and feedback to Oculus. The feedback was that it "just has to work" when it goes commercial, and the way to do that is Direct mode so consumers don't have the complexity of additional screens and odd orientations (or direct injection drivers).

If you bought a Dev Kit, but you're not a developer and are trying to use it as a consumer, that's your lookout, not FDs, and you have absolutely no recourse against FD for changes to a developer kit (NOT a commercial product) from a 3rd party which has been modified without FD's input.

As it was a Dev Kit, you should be reading the Oculus Dev forums, and be well aware that SDK 0.7 locked in direct mode, and prevented downgrades to earlier versions (in fact, you should have been aware of that since SDK 0.5).

You have been reading the SDK notes and forums, haven't you? If not, that again is your problem, not FDs.

This failure may give rise to a legal action against Frontier Developments Ltd.

What Nonsense.

 

[Borobudur]

Sir,

The caveat is correct. If you had bothered to read the paragraph carefully enough, you would understand that it referred in its entirety to the Oculus Rift and not to any FD product. On the assumption that you have re-read the first paragraph of the message, you will now understand that the distinction I am making is between "development product" and "end product".

ED is an end product. It was advertised as such. It was also advertised and marketed using VR technology (see the launch video, though you were probably there).

You are ignoring the fact that at least 10% of the Kickstart program came from VR users/developers. A substantial number since then have purchased VR kits and ED on the basis that it was advertised as a VR product.

At the lesser end of the scale, this is bad business. On the other hand, to push a product under the pretence that it is for the VR market and then not update accordingly to that market, MAY (I stress that) give rise to legal action for false advertising.

I'm not speaking merely in layman's terms here, and have been in contact with FD directly on this issue.

 

[Slopey]

ED is an end product. It was advertised as such. It was also advertised and marketed using VR technology (see the launch video, though you were probably there).

And that VR technology is delivered by a 3rd party product which has changed outwith their control.

You are ignoring the fact that at least 10% of the Kickstart program came from VR users/developers. A substantial number since then have purchased VR kits and ED on the basis that it was advertised as a VR product.

I don't believe anywhere near 10% of the kickstarter backers were VR users or developers. I've had a DK1 since they were released, been active on the forums since day 1, and the numbers of Rift owners who were ED Backers was tiny - I'd suggest less than 30 - most people bought a Rift *after* ED was funded, and didn't fund it for that reason - you can back this up with hard numbers I'm sure?

At the lesser end of the scale, this is bad business. On the other hand, to push a product under the pretence that it is for the VR market and then not update accordingly to that market, MAY (I stress that) give rise to legal action for false advertising.

I'm not speaking merely in layman's terms here, and have been in contact with FD directly on this issue.

Oh really? Which particular statute has FD violated by virtue of a 3rd party peripheral which is not associated with FD in any why shape or form, changing their SDK? Where has FD advertised that ED is 100% compatible with the Rift (in fact, they've repeatedly said they need to wait until consumer release to support it fully). How are they *pushing* it? They're not, if anything it's the community who point out internally that it's great fun on a Rift and encourage other players to buy one.

You're even posting on a topic whereby FD are going out of their way to assist users with the Rift remaining compatible with ED!

Nonsense. Too many armchair lawyers these days. I note you've only just joined the forum, so I doubt your insights into the Kickstarter process, and exactly what FD said about VR are accurate. If you're communicating with FD directly on it, that's wonderful - but I don't fancy your chances with the legal threats - just saying....

 

[Borobudur]

If FD weren't "pushing" it, why associate with Oculus in the first place by using the Oculus to promote their product? As was the case at the launch.

Just saying.

Ok, how about this? Everyone who bought ED under the impression that it was a VR product as a result of FD advertisement/promotion, are reimbursed the price of purchase?

I'm sure you're just doing your job, but from a legal perspective, it's a perfectly reasonable argument worth pursuing.

Armchairs are for amateurs, and it may not be my last post.

Hats off to Brett, btw.

 

[Lestenio]

If FD weren't "pushing" it, why associate with Oculus in the first place by using the Oculus to promote their product? As was the case at the launch.

Just saying.

Ok, how about this? Everyone who bought ED under the impression that it was a VR product as a result of FD advertisement/promotion, are reimbursed the price of purchase?

I'm sure you're just doing your job, but from a legal perspective, it's a perfectly reasonable argument worth pursuing.

Armchairs are for amateurs, and it may not be my last post.

This is the most moronic post I have read for quite some time. No developer can be held accountable for 3rd party products outside their control. To suggest that FD should give a refunds is simply laughable.
What happens if Facebook decide not to ship the rift after all. Or they decide to wait a couple more years? Is that FDs fault, or do think that every developer who has rift support should issues refunds?

The reason FD associated with Oculus is because Oculus want launch content. You don't spend years developing a product and then launch it with out any games. Imaging Microsoft started selling the Xbox 2 tomorrow, except you had to wait 3 years for games to be released.

You bought a product for developers. You checked a checkbox at purchase time confirming you knew what you were buying.
FD did a good thing adding VR support, it's a shame that some people don't appreciate it.

 

[SlackR]

Theres noone out there who wants to see VR improvements to ED more than me, but some of these posts are just plain ridiculous! direct mode has (for whatever reason) NEVER been able to work as intended with Frontiers cobra engine... It wasnt for a lack of trying or any other conspiracy theory you could care to dream up. Those who say it works... Good for you, but it certainly isnt working in the way it was designed to work. FD are clearly holding off updating until they see what oculus are going to release as an end product SDK (for commercial release). Even I (VR fanboy) can see the logic of that if they are having problems...
As for them dropping VR support altogether... I suspect we will hear in due course the exact opposite of this and see ED released for multiple VR headsets OR possibly as a limited time VR exclusive for one of the major ones. Thats tough to call at the moment given all of the non disclosure stuff they are tied to. But I am 100 % certain that Frontier are working with either Sony, Oculus or VIVE (or any combination thereof) at this moment in time. DB said as much at at Gamescom (without saying anything) ... They just cant talk about it at the moment.
Chill and come and fight me in CQC! I suck!

- - - Updated - - -

 

[Herne]

Theres noone out there who wants to see VR improvements to ED more than me, but some of these posts are just plain ridiculous! direct mode has (for whatever reason) NEVER been able to work as intended with Frontiers cobra engine... It wasnt for a lack of trying or any other conspiracy theory you could care to dream up. Those who say it works... Good for you, but it certainly isnt working in the way it was designed to work. FD are clearly holding off updating until they see what oculus are going to release as an end product SDK (for commercial release). Even I (VR fanboy) can see the logic of that if they are having problems...
As for them dropping VR support altogether... I suspect we will hear in due course the exact opposite of this and see ED released for multiple VR headsets OR possibly as a limited time VR exclusive for one of the major ones. Thats tough to call at the moment given all of the non disclosure stuff they are tied to. But I am 100 % certain that Frontier are working with either Sony, Oculus or VIVE (or any combination thereof) at this moment in time. DB said as much at at Gamescom (without saying anything) ... They just cant talk about it at the moment.
Chill and come and fight me in CQC! I suck!

- - - Updated - - -

I was in a CQC match with a CMDR SLACKR a few hours ago, just popped in to say hi I'm unable to use my rift with ED, I jumped the gun on win 10 update, so have to use 0.7. I was hoping to read news in this thread that an ED build with 0.7 sdk would be available soon.

If I have to wait until after November and oculus have the 1.0 out in the wild then it's no big deal. I was hoping that it might take a couple of hours of a DEV's time to get it working and that this would be worth while, but if they suspect the work involved would run into days or even weeks, then it's a no brainer to wait for the 1.0 build.

Shame though, CQC must be freaking awesome in the rift

 

[CMDR Bravo Zulu]

I was in a CQC match with a CMDR SLACKR a few hours ago, just popped in to say hi I'm unable to use my rift with ED, I jumped the gun on win 10 update, so have to use 0.7. I was hoping to read news in this thread that an ED build with 0.7 sdk would be available soon.

If I have to wait until after November and oculus have the 1.0 out in the wild then it's no big deal. I was hoping that it might take a couple of hours of a DEV's time to get it working and that this would be worth while, but if they suspect the work involved would run into days or even weeks, then it's a no brainer to wait for the 1.0 build.

Shame though, CQC must be freaking awesome in the rift

To be honest I was rather against CQC to start with, not a fan of PVP but with the DK2 it is an incredible experience not just another game ... I am on the road to conversion, but too much waiting for a match involved to be 100% fanboy.

I have DK2 and WIN10 with no problems (that wern't already there with WIN7/8.1) ... there are detailed instructions in this forum to make it work, but you will have to downgrade the runtime to 0.5. It is worth it I assure you. Link here : https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=179366

Like everyone else on here I am a huge supporter of VR with Elite Dangerous and FD have done a fantastic job of supporting us to date, and I am looking forward to the next set of improvements when 0.7 or above is implemented.

Fly safe, and shoot straight.

B-Z

 

[Ramjet]

... but from a legal perspective, it's a perfectly reasonable argument worth pursuing.

Armchairs are for amateurs, and it may not be my last post.

Hats off to Brett, btw.

LoL ! First year law student or wannabe bush lawyer. Like every other Rift user, I would love Frontier to update the sdk and maybe they will, if and when resource allocation/priorities permit. But to post such a pathetic, passive aggressive diatribe is actually self defeating, and makes you look stupid ! Sorry not even a point for effort, huge thumbs down. Study harder and get some miles on the clock with law before next attempt.

 

[dementia]

Not experienced any problems with my OR.

Running OR runtime 0.5.0.1 and the latest Nvidia drivers

 

[ape808]

On behalf of DK2 users, we request the immediate upgrade of Elite Dangerous in order that it may be accessed by all VR consumers, whether users of Oculus Rift DK2 or otherwise. Since the Oculus runtime update (SDK 0.7)/Win 10 update, the end consumer has been unable to use a product which was purchased in good faith from Frontier Developments Ltd, and which previously functioned perfectly as advertised. However, it would now appear that Frontier Developments Ltd have reneged on their initial advertised promise and therefore failed to deliver a product which is fit for purpose as advertised. This failure may give rise to a legal action against Frontier Developments Ltd.

Just to point out, even Oculus themselves won't be supporting 0.7 within two months. They have stated that each sdk release between now and v1.0 may break compatibility with previous versions. You are asking Frontier to devote resources to supporting a temporary implementation which the manufactures have said may need to be reworked multiple times between now and November.

http://vrfocus.com/archives/19866/oculus-targetting-november-release-for-sdk-1-0/

In the same update announcing Oculus SDK 0.7, Oculus VR confirmed that it is now targeting a November 2015 release for 1.0. That leaves September and October for the 0.8 and 0.9 releases of the kit, neither of which are yet to be fully detailed. It’s also not clear what will be included in version 1.0, though the company has stated that each new release leading up to it will only guarantee support for the previous version of the SDK.

https://developer.oculus.com/blog/upcoming-oculus-pc-sdk-0-7-compatibility-changes/

However, until 1.0 is available, each new release of the runtime will only guarantee support for the previous version of the SDK. This allows us to more rapidly evolve the software architecture and API on the path to shipping 1.0. In the case of 0.7, the runtime support will be limited to applications based on 0.6 and 0.6.0.1.

 

[tanman]

where can i download 0.5?

 

[Karnath]

where can i download 0.5?

Here you go

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=121355&p=2489331&viewfull=1#post2489331

 

[SpectrumZZ]

Slopey, before you go any further with your commentary, can you let the users of this forum know what your position with Frontier is? Are you a representative or agent of the company? Are you employed by Frontier, Inc? Do you receive any kind of compensation from Frontier, or act as an agent of Frontier?

I just want to quantify exactly the scope when you are making representations about what Frontier does and does not have as legal liabilities.

Your caveat is wrong. The DK2 was sold as a development kit, yes, but FOR developers to use and test their products with. If the DK2 isn't fit for purpose, it's nothing to do with Frontier - further more, they're not duty bound to make it work with the developer kits.

The purpose for which DK2 was released would have likely no affect on the liabilities of Frontier Inc with regard to statements they made to support Oculus devices. A developer purchasing Elite for entertainment purposes is still a legitimate purpose.

If you bought a Dev Kit, but you're not a developer and are trying to use it as a consumer, that's your lookout, not FDs, and you have absolutely no recourse against FD for changes to a developer kit (NOT a commercial product) from a 3rd party which has been modified without FD's input.

On what basis are you making this legal claim about the liabilities of Frontier? There are several legal issues that seem to appear here, including fitness of purpose, warranty of merchantability, US product liability law, and others. I am assuming you have evaluated the law in each of these areas to determine that there is no liability, and as a an agent of Frontier, you are making this representation to the public?

What Nonsense.

I think users should withhold any judgment until the real issues are laid out here, I don't think we know all the information.


For example, 10/10/2013, David Braben did represent to the Kickstarter backers in a public forum that Oculus DK2 would be a supported device, and no scope was placed on that statement. I'm sure there is a larger history out there, but I'm not really involved in this.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-10-10-elite-dangerous-oculus-rift-support-confirmed

Frontier said the Oculus Rift version of the crowd-funded space trading and combat game will be made available to all backers who have an Oculus Rift headset at no extra cost.

 

[cmdr awesome]

SpectrumZZ, I fail to see the legal issue here. ED was released as working on the DK2 - it still works on the DK2 beautifully as long as you use the older API.
The APIs are changing, and FD need time to react to that - this is quite reasonable. From what I understand of the API changes they are substantial. FD fulfilled the commitment you are quoting, and have made several statements about their long term intention to support VR.

You're clearly taking Slopey out of context - he's made no claim to represent Frontier or be a legal expert.

 

[Lestenio]

For example, 10/10/2013, David Braben did represent to the Kickstarter backers in a public forum that Oculus DK2 would be a supported device, and no scope was placed on that statement. I'm sure there is a larger history out there, but I'm not really involved in this.

And it is a supported device, I don't get your beef with FD.
If Facebook pulled the plug on the Rift tomorrow would that be FDs fault? Would you insist that FD support an obsolete DK2 model for evermore? Are you still expecting they provide DK2 support after the CV1 has launched?

The reality is exactly as Slopey said. Like it or not, you bought a prototype device aimed at a developer audience. Full stop, end of paragraph, end of story. The device was intended for developers. When you bought the device you ticked a little box acknowledging the device was for development and wasn't a consumer device. FD added VR support, awesome thank you FD. We bought it because the VR experience was amazing, with the full knowledge we were buying a prototype device aimed at developers.

All FD have said to the community is don't upgrade until they make the game compatible. Quite how that translates into we have abandoned VR support chuck your device away is beyond me. Just don't upgrade until FD have made the game work with the latest runtime. - Easy.

 

[negatron99]

Like it or not, you bought a prototype device aimed at a developer audience. Full stop, end of paragraph, end of story. The device was intended for developers. When you bought the device you ticked a little box acknowledging the device was for development and wasn't a consumer device. FD added VR support, awesome thank you FD. We bought it because the VR experience was amazing, with the full knowledge we were buying a prototype device aimed at developers.

You ever thought some of us are developers? We are a little caught between wanting to keep this game working and needing to upgrade the SDK and driver version to the latest Beta version so we can actually work on the latest version?

All FD have said to the community is don't upgrade until they make the game compatible.

For the Oculus drivers I kind of understand, they are a little unstable. But they put in support for an unstable SDK. There should be at least some communication as to what is going on. But don't upgrade the OS? It was kinda forced onto some of us, without any real warning it was going to break the game. Not really on my list of things to check when upgrading an Operating System.

Are we even going to receive a working version when the Oculus drivers hit version 1.0 (which for a developer means stable)? Or is it going to be another vow-of-silence whilst they just add more exciting features to the existing game?

If they don't do something with the VR 'feature' it'll become a 'legacy feature' that a lot of people were drawn into paying money for, quite a bit for some of the original backers, without support and without even any mention. Silently dropped as though it never existed.

Or is the integration of the proper VR system getting so hard for the developers that they just don't want to give any timescales?

I think we just want an answer.... but there's a (Math.random() < 0.0001) chance in hell of that I guess?

 

[Lestenio]

You ever thought some of us are developers? We are a little caught between wanting to keep this game working and needing to upgrade the SDK and driver version to the latest Beta version so we can actually work on the latest version?

Awesome to see someone using the DK2 as it was intended

As a developer you’ll know that the change in the new drivers was quite a large one and despite what non developers might think, it’s not 10 minutes of effort to move a game designed to run in extended mode to the new architecture. It’s also not realistic to expect that the xbox, and 1.4 release will be delayed while they work on adding support. As early adopters we have to expect some degree of pain and disruption

I wouldn’t be too hard on FD. I’m looking forward to the release just as much as anyone. I really want to run SLI, so I’m hoping that when FD move to the new drivers will bring a whole range of improvements. I have faith.