The Star Citizen Thread v 3.0

[kilvenny]

Speaking generally and not referring to a specific game. If someone else has the first shot at you - you made a mistake and then you are playing catch up and it's your skill against theirs. Ships/Planes have different characteristic and if your ship is inherently weaker you should be at a substantial disadvantage. If you are a worse pilot in a worse plane you die almost inevitably. If you are a better pilot then you can roll/yaw/loop/alter speed out of trouble and with a better ship that should be easier.

Personally I think ED is well tuned to put the emphasis on understanding the rules of engagement and making surprise and timing of engagement critical. The big exception is shield cell banks which I think are a problem as currently implemented.

 

[Voivod]

The big exception is shield cell banks which I think are a problem as currently implemented.

I also agree they're problematic in their current implementation.
I think FD is aware of the problem and there's a topic with some dev suggestions and player suggestions irrc.
It'll probably take some time before they decide what to do with them though.

 

[MarktJones]

Is there a video of this? I really want to see it.

Wait, are you saying that outmaneuvering your opponent is pointless because even though they can't hit you, they can still have you in their field of view? What's the point of being able to avoid their fire, then? That's like saying... Look, I get what you mean, and I'm not happy about the ability to turret so easily in SC either but it is what it is right now, and without the ability to change course/heading so fast then you'll just be reduced to dust by the mousers.

Eagle killing an Anaconda, keeps behind it for most of the time.

Spoiler

https://youtu.be/riR3A5PrI3A?t=226

 

[Troels]

Eagle killing an Anaconda, keeps behind it for most of the time.

Spoiler

https://youtu.be/riR3A5PrI3A?t=226

Doesn't really say much though, when it's against AI.

 

[fourty6to3]

Eagle killing an Anaconda, keeps behind it for most of the time.

Spoiler

https://youtu.be/riR3A5PrI3A?t=226

Unfortunately this video just shows more of what I'm talking about. First, the Eagle flew in behind the Anaconda before the engagement even began. Second, he's spamming chaff. Third, he's spamming shield cell banks. Why? Look at the 3D display of that eagle, almost every time the Anaconda is shooting it hits the Eagle (and this was back in Jan, before the AI got it's current teeth). Then for a good few minutes the AI isn't even attempting to fire at him, it's gone docile. He's not using his thrusters or any kind of flight tactics to avoid fire, because that's not what you can do in Elite. In fact, even in his Eagle he's having one hell of a time staying in the Anaconda's blind spot.

 

[ZeeWolf]

For me the only close comparison I'm able to make is between Arena Commander and now CQC since Star Citizen doesn't yet allow open world combat and CIG haven't demonstrated themselves to be the perfect developer either. So while the shield cells do disappoint in ED's current implementation I'd say that there is no evidence to suggest that SC won't have some equally dumb play mechanics that don't need to be ironed out during the course of the titles life in the real world (if that ever happens).

Currently, having had Arena Commander since day 1 when it was made available to backers I don't find the combat particularly satisfying and I've always felt is was more to do with the mouse orientated virtual pilot and the way the cockpit swings about in a kind of jerky fashion that doesn't feel as aesthetically pleasing as the fluid feel of ED and a cheap flight stick. Despite this, AC has improved dramatically over year+ it's been around and the damage model provides more pleasing feedback on kills.

If the only fair test currently is between AC + starter ship (Aurora) and CQC + starter ship (Condor) I'd have to go with CQC as being the more fun flight model. But that's a very personal opinion and it doesn't really say much about the final SC game.

I'm not a fan of shield cells either.

I wonder if people have become rather entrenched into thinking that having a perfect flight model is somehow relevant anyway? Lots of flight simulators have a much better flight model than War Thunder and this doesn't stop it being far more popular. At the end of the day I doubt whether success for SC will have much bearing on it's flight model, it'll be more down to delivery of flashy graphics/marketing and the game providing a moderate amount of fun to tie it all together.

 

[Jenner]

I wonder if people have become rather entrenched into thinking that having a perfect flight model is somehow relevant anyway? Lots of flight simulators have a much better flight model than War Thunder and this doesn't stop it being far more popular. At the end of the day I doubt whether success for SC will have much bearing on it's flight model, it'll be more down to delivery of flashy graphics/marketing and the game providing a moderate amount of fun to tie it all together.

It's a good point, and personally I agree with you.

 

[Voivod]

I wonder if people have become rather entrenched into thinking that having a perfect flight model is somehow relevant anyway? Lots of flight simulators have a much better flight model than War Thunder and this doesn't stop it being far more popular. At the end of the day I doubt whether success for SC will have much bearing on it's flight model, it'll be more down to delivery of flashy graphics/marketing and the game providing a moderate amount of fun to tie it all together.

Good point.

 

[Scudmungus]

Mi came fi de flasy graphics.

Mi stayed fi de...

..

..Oooooo FLASHY GRAPHICS!!!

 

[Mu77ley]

I wonder if people have become rather entrenched into thinking that having a perfect flight model is somehow relevant anyway?

Personally I really couldn't care less about having a "perfect" flight model. All I want is a fun flight model that requires some skill.

For me Elite has that, but sadly Star Citizen currently doesn't.

I keep hoping for improvements, but every update so far has been disappointing.

All my hopes are now pinned on Squadron 42, because as it stands, I can't see the Persistent Universe being worth playing.

 

[Confucios]

I think this movie showcases some of things being debated:

Spoiler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-3I1WyOU6Y

It showcases manoeuvring (both offensive & defensive), combat awareness, use of countermeasures, aiming skill to get the upper hand against other pilots. (using hotas + mfg pedals)
Notice how he uses roll+strafe to avoid damage (makes the lag pips go all over the place and even with mouse it´s very difficult to hit them, see this for example) and keeps going under or over is target to get the most wider firing option possible while maintaining it´s ship out of the opponent´s line of fire.

This 2 YouTube Channels alone have some good valuable information:
- Legacy Instructional Series (hotas)
- ManiacalGinger (m&k)

No feedback from this post :/ , lost in translation?

 

[Voivod]

No feedback from this post :/ , lost in translation?

It's literally nothing that hasn't been posted before.

I've honestly yet to see an SC video that has flying that impresses me.
That says more about the flight model than it does about the pilots though.
Just my opinion.

 

[Confucios]

Originally Posted by BEKTOP 3APEMOB
Maybe I've been looking at wrong videos of SC. Can you point me to a video of space-combat in SC that you consider to be good?

Originally Posted by Voivod
Show me a video of people in AC avoiding fire without obstacles. I'm genuinely curious.

Originally Posted by MarktJones
Do you have videos of people in SC avoiding fire without using cover?

Doesn't this video

Spoiler

[video=youtube;l-3I1WyOU6Y]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-3I1WyOU6Y[/video]

shows just that?

 

[Voivod]

I watched it in a few random spots...all he does is strafe and point & shoot.
He's doing the same thing all the time.

If this is what you consider a good SC video then again.. it doesn't impress me in the slightest.
It might be great flying or something but it really does nothing for me.

 

[Confucios]

I watched it in a few random spots...all he does is strafe and point & shoot.
He's doing the same thing all the time.

If this is what you consider a good SC video then again.. it doesn't impress me in the slightest.
It might be great flying or something but it really does nothing for me.

It seems to be working just right, what would you do different in that particular situation?
Isn't he avoiding fire without cover? That's what you were asking for wasn't it?

Yes this is what I consider a good SC video when people start asking for the above:

-

Originally Posted by BEKTOP 3APEMOB
Maybe I've been looking at wrong videos of SC. Can you point me to a video of space-combat in SC that you consider to be good?

-

Originally Posted by Voivod
Show me a video of people in AC avoiding fire without obstacles. I'm genuinely curious.

-

Originally Posted by MarktJones
Do you have videos of people in SC avoiding fire without using cover?

Doesn't the video showcase space flying? Using the advantages of a a true 6DOF Newtonian flight mode? rotating around, above and below the opponent to get the better angles of shooting while avoiding taking damage?
It's not about impressing or doing something for You. There's no you in a pragmatic discussion.

 

[Mu77ley]

Doesn't the video showcase space flying? Using the advantages of a a true 6DOF Newtonian flight mode? rotating around, above and below the opponent to get the better angles of shooting while avoiding taking damage?

TBH it just shows how boring and simplistic the combat and flight model is. Which we already know, being mostly people who have played it.

 

[Voivod]

It seems to be working just right, what would you do different in that particular situation?
Isn't he avoiding fire without cover? That's what you were asking for wasn't it?

Yes this is what I consider a good SC video when people start asking for the above:

Doesn't the video showcase space flying? Using the advantages of a a true 6DOF Newtonian flight mode? rotating around, above and below the opponent to get the better angles of shooting while avoiding taking damage?
It's not about impressing or doing something for You. There's no you in a pragmatic discussion.

When I was asking for videos I didn't imply it wasn't possible... I was asking for how it's done so that I can compare it to ED.
That's how the conversation started.

The maneuvering doesn't impress me at all when I compare it to good Elite or CQC maneuvering videos.
That's how I feel about it. Obviously you're free to be impressed with that video and not impressed by ED flying.

 

[Iskariot]

Perhaps one of you ca help me?

Where has the Elite Dangerous Thread on the RSI forums gone?
As of today I can't find it anywhere.

 

[Neo-ST]

Perhaps one of you ca help me?

Where has the Elite Dangerous Thread on the RSI forums gone?
As of today I can't find it anywhere.

https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/86097/katamari-damashii-elite-dangerous#latest

 

[Confucios]

TBH it just shows how boring and simplistic the combat and flight model is. Which we already know, being mostly people who have played it.

When I was asking for videos I didn't imply it wasn't possible... I was asking for how it's done so that I can compare it to ED.
That's how the conversation started.

The maneuvering doesn't impress me at all when I compare it to good Elite or CQC maneuvering videos.
That's how I feel about it. Obviously you're free to be impressed with that video and not impressed by ED flying.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion after all everyone has their own, but saying that the flight model: "it's simplistic and boring" and "doesn't impress" doesn't add to the discussion which was mainly pragmatic about what you could and couldn't do with each flight model.