Ideas for Weapons and Powerplay

[HiTekRedNek]

Well as you can see I am new to the forums, but to be honest, I have yet to really have something to say, but because of some of the things that my friends and I have experienced I felt the need to make a couple complaints and I am the type that I would never just make complaints to a developer I like, about a game that I enjoy, without offering some sort of solution.

First off, Weapons..... or let's just say the lack of customization in some of the more heavily priced ships.

I would like to see a customization option added for you to combine weapons in larger hard points. These PODs would allow you to place smaller weapons grouped together to take the place of larger weapons.
We all know how the weapons work 2 small are 1 med, 2 med are 1 large etc... Well my suggestion would allow you to purchase a POD or Rack that allowed you to turn a medium, large, or huge hard point into points to mount smaller weapons.

Examples:
Huge hard points would have options for racks that contain 2 large, 4 medium, or 8 small
Large hard points would have options for racks that contain 2 medium or 4 small
Medium would be able to load 2 small

This would allow people that don't like the placement or the actual weapons in certain classes to move some stuff around. Like myself, I don't necessarily like the loadout on the FDL, if I had the option I would replace the Huge point with a rack containing 2 lasers and use medium cannons on top.


Ok, my next idea/complaint has to do with Powerplay and in-game factions, and people abusing the solo system to avoid other factions being able to stop them.
The other night we noticed that we had a Powerplay group encroaching into the area where most of my friends hang out, and we were like, we'll try and undermine to slow them down. So we're out there for hours and hours intercepting as many of the other factions ships as possible killing them and taking the cargo to turn in for undermining, and we saw 1 CMDR from the other faction, we had guys that stayed up all night and we had guys from other time zones in there over the course of the first day or two almost constantly, they saw 3 other CMDRs. Now, out of all the CMDRs we saw, after they saw us, they disappeared, so our only guess is that they knew why we were there and to avoid us, they emergency jumped out of super-cruise, then logged into SOLO, because over the next couple days the expansion amount kept rising and rising, but not once did we see another CMDR and we constantly had people out there hunting to try and prevent as much as we could. To me this is entirely unfair, and people are EXPLOITING the SOLO mode to avoid any chance at resistance from an actual opponent. This is crap.

My first idea to fix this is to seperate SOLO/GROUP players from the OPEN play community, just give them their own server where they never have to worry about being hunted, killed, pirated, or whatever it is that makes them not want to be a part of the OPEN play community, let them all play invisibly with one another. Then give OPEN players there own server where you can't hide in SOLO or GROUP.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

If that can't be done, my other fix for this is simple, NERF SOLO and GROUP Modes, and Boost OPEN Play to balance the server.

Take the game as it is right now, and lets call it the Base Line Value for everything, and we'll break down different aspects of the game.

So what is important in this game at the moment that people grind for, Money, Factions (Powerplay and System Factions), Rank XP (Trade/Combat/Exploration). Now, lets make some adjustments, that makes Powerplay more fair for most of the community while allowing people who do not want to interact with the rest of the gaming community. Now we look at what should be Nerfed, and what could be boosted to give people people in SOLO/GROUP mode enough to stick around as players and remain a part of the community, but reward OPEN players for taking the added risk of interacting with other in the OPEN play areas.

Here are Ideas for my Values
Base Line Values are Shown as X, percentages are expressed in decimal form(.25X = 25% of Base Value, 1.5X = 150% of Base Value, ETC.....)


Categories for Base Value/Current Values in Game
Credits Earned for Actions (Missions, Bounties, Trading, Powerplay Rewards (Merits/Merit Turn in Bonus/Salary)) - we'll call this Credits Earned
System/Station Faction/Faction(Federal, Empire, Etc...) XP - we'll call this Faction XP
Powerplay Merit Points - we'll just call this what it is Powerplay Merits Earned
Ranking XP (Trade/Combat/Exploration) - same here straight forward Ranking XP

Base Game (As it is Now)
Credits Earned = X
Faction XP = X
Powerplay Merit Points = X
Ranking XP = X

My Proposed Values for different modes

Solo Mode Values
Credits Earned = X
Faction XP = .75X
Powerplay Merits Earned = .25X
Ranking XP = .75X

Group Play Mode Values
Credits Earned = X
Faction XP = X
Powerplay Merits Earned = .5X
Ranking XP = X

Open Play Mode Values
Credits Earned = 1.25X
Faction XP = 1.25X
Powerplay Merits Earned = X
Ranking XP = 1.25 X

This would encourage people using the Powerplay system to do so in Open play to reduce the grind, while also allowing Traders to retain profitability while avoiding pirates and what not in Solo and Group, but give a nice boost to those who choose to take the risk of Open Play. I think this is the better solution, and I think that the values represented are fair, in my opinion I would have probably boosted the Open Play values a bit more to give a somewhat larger incentive for playing in Open, but ultimately these things are left up to the developers, but Frontier, you guys have got to so something to balance powerplay and get the advantage away from those who undermine and expand only in SOLO. I'm sure some of this may have been suggested before, not sure haven't read much on here, I just felt I should share the ideas that I had for solutions of what to me are the biggest thorns in my side in a game I enjoy, but that I am very frustrated with at the moment.

 

[hs0003]

Frontier already said that solo, group and open are equally valid ways of playing the game, so no change will happen there.

When it comes to the hardpoint idea, can you imagine how strong an Anaconda would be with 26 small gimballed multi cannons? That'll never happen either.
The actual point of different sized hardpoints is that small and medium hardpoints receives a penalty when attacking the hull of a large ship and large/huge hardpoints don't. That is why the damage difference between the hardpoints isn't stupidly different.

 

[Lazerus Artificial]

Frontier already said that solo, group and open are equally valid ways of playing the game, so no change will happen there.

When it comes to the hardpoint idea, can you imagine how strong an Anaconda would be with 26 small gimballed multi cannons? That'll never happen either.
The actual point of different sized hardpoints is that small and medium hardpoints receives a penalty when attacking the hull of a large ship and large/huge hardpoints don't. That is why the damage difference between the hardpoints isn't stupidly different.

here you go

2) There's a second step in damage reduction that's used only for hulls - Hardness. Each armour has a Hardness value and each weapon has a Piercing value, all damage is multiplied by:
Min(1.0 , Piercing / Hardness)
So a small pulse laser (20) would deal full damage to a sidewinder (also 20), but less than a third damage to an anaconda (65). The main intent of this mechanic is not to penalise small ships, but to make large weapons effective against large ships without one-shotting smaller vessels - they don't actually do that much more flat damage than a small weapon but by piercing much better are far more effective against the harder target.

 

[hs0003]

here you go

I'm well aware how small weapons work against large targets, but 26 small gimballed multi cannons would do roughly the same dps as 2 large fixed beam lasers on shields, and if you actually tied equipping just 8 small (or 2 small and 6 medium) gimballed multi cannons on an Anaconda you would find that they ruin hull pretty fast.

 

[Lazerus Artificial]

I'm well aware how small weapons work against large targets, but 26 small gimballed multi cannons would do roughly the same dps as 2 large fixed beam lasers on shields, and if you actually tied equipping just 8 small (or 2 small and 6 medium) gimballed multi cannons on an Anaconda you would find that they ruin hull pretty fast.

you do, but maybe not the others who might think that this idea is nice and that you are wrong because large weapons are obviously sooo many times stronger.
i just quoted it to proof your sentence, so that its not just a random statement

 

[HiTekRedNek]

I'm not saying that Solo is not a valid way to play and enjoy the game, but EXPLOITING Solo mode as a way to prevent people from stopping you in Powerplay is an unintentional side effect. We all know what I'm talking about, it happens all the time. You're playing in Open play with your buddies, you see another commander, the second they come in the system and see you are there, boom they emergency drop, then you never see them again. IT IS EXPLOITING THE GAME. What is the use of even having powerplay if you can't stop people because they refuse to interact with the community while grinding their merits. They need to either move the Solo players to their own server and make it a separate part of the game, or find a way to balance the fact that no one can stop them while in solo mode. It is simply unfair to the players who play in OPEN to continue this to keep going the way it is.

As far as the weapons idea, it is mainly to replace weapons you don't want to use. Like I'm not a fan of the available huge weapons, and normally run a large Laser of some type, to me, it would just be cool for us to have a little bit more of an option.

Eventually i'll learn how to edit...

 

[Lazerus Artificial]

I'm not saying that Solo is not a valid way to play and enjoy the game, but EXPLOITING Solo mode as a way to prevent people from stopping you in Powerplay is an unintentional side effect. We all know what I'm talking about, it happens all the time. You're playing in Open play with your buddies, you see another commander, the second they come in the system and see you are there, boom they emergency drop, then you never see them again. IT IS EXPLOITING THE GAME. What is the use of even having powerplay if you can't stop people because they refuse to interact with the community while grinding their merits. They need to either move the Solo players to their own server and make it a separate part of the game, or find a way to balance the fact that no one can stop them while in solo mode. It is simply unfair to the players who play in OPEN to continue this to keep going the way it is.

As far as the weapons idea, it is mainly to replace weapons you don't want to use. Like I'm not a fan of the available huge weapons, and normally run a large Laser of some type, to me, it would just be cool for us to have a little bit more of an option.

Eventually i'll learn how to edit...

the solo vs open discussion should be moved to its own topic (there are several)
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=169599

but well, i say it again: even if you play "open", you dont really play with everyone.
there is still instancing, so you will only see a few. they cant stop all players, maybe a few, but some will land in an instance without players.
you could even just have a bad router configuration and you will never see someone in open, seriously, i had that for a long time until i figured it out.

also the devs said several times now that solo, open and private players are all equal. so stop whining, its not going to change


towards the weapon part:
yeah, the huge slots need more variety. i would love to have a huge laser there, or even better: huge missiles

 

[HiTekRedNek]

It's not a whining thing, I can't stand people who just whine about things without posting some kind of solution to the problem, but can anyone seriously, with a straight face, tell me that allowing people to remain in SOLO while affecting systems in Powerplay is fair at all. It gives no recourse for smaller factions to stop larer ones. In other games I have played, specifically PvP games where there were factions people could fight for, a smaller more skillful group could easily affect change against the "mob" because they were forced to deal with us. In this situation, they get killed and their cargo gets stolen, and they go, "oh well, back to solo play again." Frontier needs to realize that there is an EXPLOIT there in the system.

 

[Lazerus Artificial]

It's not a whining thing, I can't stand people who just whine about things without posting some kind of solution to the problem, but can anyone seriously, with a straight face, tell me that allowing people to remain in SOLO while affecting systems in Powerplay is fair at all. It gives no recourse for smaller factions to stop larer ones. In other games I have played, specifically PvP games where there were factions people could fight for, a smaller more skillful group could easily affect change against the "mob" because they were forced to deal with us. In this situation, they get killed and their cargo gets stolen, and they go, "oh well, back to solo play again." Frontier needs to realize that there is an EXPLOIT there in the system.

as i said, it doesnt matter.
YOU say that its an exploit that they can do things without you seing them, right?
well...you can do the same.
they can undermine your system from private, but there are enough player who can fortify your systems from private too.
its not just YOU who plays it.
in the end its completely balanced. there are groups for and against a faction who play open, private and solo.

if your faction is in trouble, then it has nothing to do with solo and private players. its simply that your faction has not enough players who support it.

you want pvp? play pvp with those who want it then.
there are still enough players in open who want to fight you.

let me give you one more example.
Eve Online.
Lots of old players, lots of huge corps.
I started it just two years ago or so, wanted to go mining and explore a bit - i couldnt.
why?
because some players forced their pvp onto me. as soon as i entered a belt - attack. enter 0 sec? kill.
was that fun? hell no.
so why do so many players want to force their playstile onto others? just because it is fun for some doesnt meant its fun for everyone.
its exactly the opposite, it ruins the fun for them, and a game that isnt fun is a failure.

could you split open, solo and private?
no.
not without a massive flood of refunds.
could you change powerplay?
sure, but this takes time, and this year is packed.

 

[HiTekRedNek]

as i said, it doesnt matter.
YOU say that its an exploit that they can do things without you seing them, right?
well...you can do the same.
they can undermine your system from private, but there are enough player who can fortify your systems from private too.
its not just YOU who plays it.
in the end its completely balanced. there are groups for and against a faction who play open, private and solo.

if your faction is in trouble, then it has nothing to do with solo and private players. its simply that your faction has not enough players who support it.

you want pvp? play pvp with those who want it then.
there are still enough players in open who want to fight you.

let me give you one more example.
Eve Online.
Lots of old players, lots of huge corps.
I started it just two years ago or so, wanted to go mining and explore a bit - i couldnt.
why?
because some players forced their pvp onto me. as soon as i entered a belt - attack. enter 0 sec? kill.
was that fun? hell no.
so why do so many players want to force their playstile onto others? just because it is fun for some doesnt meant its fun for everyone.
its exactly the opposite, it ruins the fun for them, and a game that isnt fun is a failure.

could you split open, solo and private?
no.
not without a massive flood of refunds.
could you change powerplay?
sure, but this takes time, and this year is packed.

That's why i suggested the system I did, I'm not one to complain about something without trying to help find a solution. My system would allow people to play in SOLO mode and still have some influence over Powerplay, it would also allow players that feel they are being harassed in OPEN by pirates or just people killing for no reason to switch without really being penalized; but it would award them if they decided to go to group and play with wing mates, and would reward them even more if they decide to take the risk and play in OPEN, especially with wing mates.

 

[DocLooshkin]

Frontier needs to realize that there is an EXPLOIT there in the system.

This isn't an exploit. Open vs Solo is a very old debate. FD was fully aware of this before, during and after implementation - and this is fully intended and desired behaviour.

As LazerusKI said, it cuts both ways: neither side can hurt the majority of the others' efforts, since the majority of both sides' activity is in Solo. The PowerPlay game - along with everything else - is designed and built around this premise.

I think it's not so much that Solo is a way to avoid being attacked in Open, as much as Open is a way for adventurous players to find a harder, multiplayer challenge, away from Solo. It's a matter of perspective.

 

[Psycho Romeo]

I agree with the consensus that the original suggestions here do not really run parallel to the current implementation.

As far as the powerplay issue - yes it's a real issue, but such is life.
However, I believe there is a very good solution to be found here.
The summary: players create NPC doppelgangers/shadows/echos of themselves in other modes and instances, giving players in other instances something tangible to interact with despite being in a different mode.
Example: Traders in SOLO create NPC trader doppelgangers in OPEN. Pirates in OPEN see these NPC trader doppelgangers (which look like normal trader NPCs, though their loads out are a carbon copy of the SOLO traders), and pirate them. By doing so, the pirates in OPEN create NPC pirate doppelgangers who are spawned in the instances of the SOLO traders and hunt the SOLO traders.

 

[Lazerus Artificial]

That's why i suggested the system I did, I'm not one to complain about something without trying to help find a solution.

Spoiler

Solo Mode Values
Credits Earned = X
Faction XP = .75X
Powerplay Merits Earned = .25X
Ranking XP = .75X

Group Play Mode Values
Credits Earned = X
Faction XP = X
Powerplay Merits Earned = .5X
Ranking XP = X

Open Play Mode Values
Credits Earned = 1.25X
Faction XP = 1.25X
Powerplay Merits Earned = X
Ranking XP = 1.25 X

Well this would not work.
why?
simple.
your position is saved on all of the modes, so what would stop me from traveling the route in solo, dock there, switch to open and sell for a better profit, before i switch back to solo again?
Want to clear my cargo? then you would create another issue, my two "savegames" would be different and it would create the refund stiuation.

I agree with the consensus that the original suggestions here do not really run parallel to the current implementation.

As far as the powerplay issue - yes it's a real issue, but such is life.
However, I believe there is a very good solution to be found here.
The summary: players create NPC doppelgangers/shadows/echos of themselves in other modes and instances, giving players in other instances something tangible to interact with despite being in a different mode.
Example: Traders in SOLO create NPC trader doppelgangers in OPEN. Pirates in OPEN see these NPC trader doppelgangers (which look like normal trader NPCs, though their loads out are a carbon copy of the SOLO traders), and pirate them. By doing so, the pirates in OPEN create NPC pirate doppelgangers who are spawned in the instances of the SOLO traders and hunt the SOLO traders.

This could actually work but wouldnt it be the same as open then?
I mean...i play private because i was annoyed by those RP players who interdict me x times on one route.
The mechanic itself would be fun to create more life in all the gamemodes, so if a lot of players are in a system, each gammemode would mirror this amount by placing more NPC ships. Based on what those players are, you would then encounter different behaviours.

 

[Psycho Romeo]

The mechanic itself would be fun to create more life in all the gamemodes, so if a lot of players are in a system, each gammemode would mirror this amount by placing more NPC ships. Based on what those players are, you would then encounter different behaviours.

Correct. Specifically, the NPC ship would be modeled as closely to the player it's copying as possible. Lots of CMDRs fortifying a system in solo? Lots of NPCs fortifying that system in open.

 

[DocLooshkin]

[...] NPC trader doppelgangers (which look like normal trader NPCs, though their loads out are a carbon copy of the SOLO traders) [...]

Cross-matching the overall numbers of NPC traders, pirates, etc, between Open and Solo instances seems like a very good idea, if it can be done.

Without some adjustment, however, carbon copies of actual ships and cargo would allow organised groups to spawn endless amounts of high-value bountied NPCs, or NPC traders full of rares for themselves, which doesn't seem good. It would also give gold farmers an easy way of delivering the same thing to their customers, while simultaneously making it much harder for FD to detect them - also not good.

 

[Lazerus Artificial]

Cross-matching the overall numbers of NPC traders, pirates, etc, between Open and Solo instances seems like a very good idea, if it can be done.

Without some adjustment, however, carbon copies of actual ships and cargo would allow organised groups to spawn endless amounts of high-value bountied NPCs, or NPC traders full of rares for themselves, which doesn't seem good. It would also give gold farmers an easy way of delivering the same thing to their customers, while simultaneously making it much harder for FD to detect them - also not good.

yeah that would be a problem.
if there spawns a copy of the players ship with its cargo, then it can be exploited (and seriously, the bounty exploit is allready bad enough)
if they spawn without cargo, then they are just useless junk
so yeah, i would say that there should be just more random npcs when a system is crowded.
are there a lot of trader-rank players? spawn more trading convoys
a lot of high bounty players? pirate blockade
bounty hunters? security patrols
explorers? a lot of random frameshift wakes

 

[Miklos Atreides]

It's not a whining thing, I can't stand people who just whine about things without posting some kind of solution to the problem, but can anyone seriously, with a straight face, tell me that allowing people to remain in SOLO while affecting systems in Powerplay is fair at all. It gives no recourse for smaller factions to stop larer ones. In other games I have played, specifically PvP games where there were factions people could fight for, a smaller more skillful group could easily affect change against the "mob" because they were forced to deal with us. In this situation, they get killed and their cargo gets stolen, and they go, "oh well, back to solo play again." Frontier needs to realize that there is an EXPLOIT there in the system.

I can.

Solo is a fully valid playstyle by intention of the game.
Group is the same valid playstyle by intention of the game.

Its simple as that, you have to stick with it. You are allowed to use the sam 'abuse mechanic' as well.
So its fully fair and everybody who wants to know it, knows it.

Regards,
Mikloos

 

[Miklos Atreides]

"As far as the powerplay issue - yes it's a real issue, but such is life.
However, I believe there is a very good solution to be found here.
The summary: players create NPC doppelgangers/shadows/echos of themselves in other modes and instances, giving players in other instances something tangible to interact with despite being in a different mode.
Example: Traders in SOLO create NPC trader doppelgangers in OPEN. Pirates in OPEN see these NPC trader doppelgangers (which look like normal trader NPCs, though their loads out are a carbon copy of the SOLO traders), and pirate them. By doing so, the pirates in OPEN create NPC pirate doppelgangers who are spawned in the instances of the SOLO traders and hunt the SOLO traders."

Unfortunately this will not work. Even the idea is good from the concept.
The problem will lie in the result from the act of piracy can get different in the instances which will create an undefined state of the NPC Echoes and Players and
the effects to faction, PP, background sim and so on.

Regards,
Miklos

 

[Snarfbuckle]

I'm well aware how small weapons work against large targets, but 26 small gimballed multi cannons would do roughly the same dps as 2 large fixed beam lasers on shields, and if you actually tied equipping just 8 small (or 2 small and 6 medium) gimballed multi cannons on an Anaconda you would find that they ruin hull pretty fast.

And what about OTHER values limiting such builds?

Large Fixed beam Laser
Power Draw: 1,8

Small Multi-Cannon (Gimbal)
Powerdraw: 0,37

26 small gimballed multicannons have a powerdraw: 9,62 power vs 3,6 AND 52 tonnes vs 16.

Thermal load is 26 vs 10 against the capacitor

So the firepower comes with a lot of costs.

 

[Psycho Romeo]

Without some adjustment, however, carbon copies of actual ships and cargo would allow organised groups to spawn endless amounts of high-value bountied NPCs, or NPC traders full of rares for themselves, which doesn't seem good. It would also give gold farmers an easy way of delivering the same thing to their customers, while simultaneously making it much harder for FD to detect them - also not good.

Yes, but remember that as these gold farmers spawn doppelgangers for their clients, their clients spawn doppelgangers back at them. Also spawning only occurs when some kind of action is made (such as a kill, or a transaction) and this defines the AI of the doppelganger. I suppose to help alleviate any abusable bits, the 'carbon copy' can have extreme bits (such as its bounty, or lack of weapons/shields) tamed.

Unfortunately this will not work. Even the idea is good from the concept.
The problem will lie in the result from the act of piracy can get different in the instances which will create an undefined state of the NPC Echoes and Players and
the effects to faction, PP, background sim and so on.

Regards,
Miklos

This is like three completely unrelated sentences mushed together. It makes no sense.