Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread - Mk III

[Jockey79]

Ah now Jockey, you know I'm all about choice, so I could never go for that.

Ah but choice is maintained - everyone would have the choice of Solo, Group or CQC and no one would claim one mode is better than another as we'd all be in the same boat

No one would have anything to argue over, no more "give open more rewards", no more "open pve" or "remove pvp from open" - it would benefit everyone just getting rid of it.
Think of it like a tree, in order for a tree to grow, it needs to get rid of the dead wood - old dead branches fall to the floor and die off while new ones grow.

We need to trim the tree, we need to remove open so the rest of the game can grow

OUCH!!! to much truthiness in that statement for someone who has invested as much cash in that game as i have.

i prefer that it's just a matter of feature creep.
yea that's it, just making the game too darned good for it's own good.

Sorry man, forgot some nice people from here lost on that scam - but if it helps, you've got us and we love ya

 

[Jockey79]

"Then everyone is equal."- They already are. All game modes are equally valid. Ironic as well, since last night you told me that the suggestion solo be removed was deeply insulting to you. I cannot think of a single reason to get rid of Open other than out of spite. I think we need to have a more positive attitude to each others playstyles, do you not agree

Well as you've been touting for bonuses to open - you clearly do not believe this, so why say it?

And all modes are equal in rewards - but not in play styles, PvP clearly dominates despite PvE mechanics being added, as PvE cannot be forced on PvPers but PvP is forced on PvEers.
Removal of Open does not stop that - but it does address your own concern of Open rewards not being fair - so just remove open and job done.

Also, the insult was being accused of hiding in solo or solo being easier - I love how you just up and lie despite anyone being able to go and check what was said.

 

[The Wallet Inspector]

Well as you've been touting for bonuses to open - you clearly do not believe this, so why say it?

And all modes are equal in rewards - but not in play styles, PvP clearly dominates despite PvE mechanics being added, as PvE cannot be forced on PvPers but PvP is forced on PvEers.
Removal of Open does not stop that - but it does address your own concern of Open rewards not being fair - so just remove open and job done.

Also, the insult was being accused of hiding in solo or solo being easier - I love how you just up and lie despite anyone being able to go and check what was said.

To quote you"Asking for PvE to be removed and asking for better rewards for open firmly place you in the open advocates camp, saying open is "easier" just means you want to be insulting (this has been covered in this thread, it is down to you to research what you are going to talk about, before posting) and there was no need to be insulting." - So we can confirm your intention was to be insulting when you request the removal of Open From your own posts last night

"Removal of Open does not stop that - but it does address your own concern of Open rewards not being fair - so just remove open and job done."

It is just your opinion that Open is unfair. They provide game-modes so you can make your game more "fair", and play with who you want. I Don't see a reason to change that.

"Also, the insult was being accused of hiding in solo or solo being easier "

I never accused anyone of anything. Please show me the "accusation", I said I am fine with people going into solo to hide from pirates. You took issue with the word "hide" because it offended you. I apologized if it cause you any offense, I am not sure what else you would like me to do? Either way, I will say once again, I got the game in Beta, with Open play, and was happy with it. It appears you bough the game under the misapprehension it contained a PvE mode, and have repeatedly made accusations against FDEV that they have "lied" to you. I cannot resolve this issue for you, it is beyond my ability. I also said I would like to see more Online only competitions, like in CQC or in Open, because I think it is good for the community. This is not an insult, in any way against you.

- - - Updated - - -

To quote you"Asking for PvE to be removed and asking for better rewards for open firmly place you in the open advocates camp, saying open is "easier" just means you want to be insulting (this has been covered in this thread, it is down to you to research what you are going to talk about, before posting) and there was no need to be insulting." - So we can confirm your intention was to be insulting when you request the removal of Open From your own posts last night

"Removal of Open does not stop that - but it does address your own concern of Open rewards not being fair - so just remove open and job done."

It is just your opinion that Open is unfair. They provide game-modes so you can make your game more "fair", and play with who you want. I Don't see a reason to change that.

"Also, the insult was being accused of hiding in solo or solo being easier "

I never accused anyone of anything. Please show me the "accusation", I said I am fine with people going into solo to hide from pirates. You took issue with the word "hide" because it offended you. I apologized if it cause you any offense, I am not sure what else you would like me to do? Either way, I will say once again, I got the game in Beta, with Open play, and was happy with it. It appears you bough the game under the misapprehension it contained a PvE mode, and have repeatedly made accusations against FDEV that they have "lied" to you. I cannot resolve this issue for you, it is beyond my ability. I also said I would like to see more Online only competitions, like in CQC or in Open, because I think it is good for the community. This is not an insult, in any way against you.

"I love how you just up and lie "

Go and find the exact quote and accusation, I have clarified my position several times for you now.

 

[Demonseed]

Sorry man, forgot some nice people from here lost on that scam - but if it helps, you've got us and we love ya

Meh, let's leave the whole SC vs ED flame war out of this one. I'm invested in both games, and the whole thing with bad-mouthing the one that's only in it's third year of it's five-year AAA title development cycle and screaming "scam!" as opposed to the much less ambitious game that only took three years to complete - with one of those years happening before the Kickstarter even happening - is very much an insult to the game designers who make both of them. I suppose that's the problem with "open game development". Too many armchair fanboys who think they know game design. Most don't have a clue how long or how many people it takes to make a large game and insult the industry with their impatience. It's almost better to go back to the older model of "work on your 5-year AAA title, and don't even announce it even exists until the 4th year when you can show some videos at E3, and then a playable demo at the E3 a year later 6 months prior to launch".

 

[The Wallet Inspector]

Meh, let's leave the whole SC vs ED flame war out of this one. I'm invested in both games, and the whole thing with bad-mouthing the one that's only in it's third year of it's five-year AAA title development cycle and screaming "scam!" as opposed to the much less ambitious game that only took three years to complete - with one of those years happening before the Kickstarter even happening - is very much an insult to the game designers who make both of them. I suppose that's the problem with "open game development". Too many armchair fanboys who think they know game design. Most don't have a clue how long or how many people it takes to make a large game and insult the industry with their impatience. It's almost better to go back to the older model of "work on your 5-year AAA title, and don't even announce it even exists until the 4th year when you can show some videos at E3, and then a playable demo at the E3 a year later 6 months prior to launch".

Agreed, calling people Star Citizen trolls is not really helpful, and divisive. I don;t play the game, but i bet it must sting someone else who does play it who has to read it being used as an insult

 

[Jockey79]

To quote you"Asking for PvE to be removed and asking for better rewards for open firmly place you in the open advocates camp, saying open is "easier" just means you want to be insulting (this has been covered in this thread, it is down to you to research what you are going to talk about, before posting) and there was no need to be insulting." - So we can confirm your intention was to be insulting when you request the removal of Open From your own posts last night

Ahh, old troll tactic of misquoting - one you've tried several times so far in the past half dozen pages.

The punctuation makes that very clear - saying solo is easy mode is insulting.
Asking for a play style to be removed pointed out your lie of not taking sides when you clearly are.

There is a comma plain as day right there - even in your quote of me, it is there.
Constantly misquoting and misspelling of names it clear proof why you are here, and its not to discuss anything.

"Removal of Open does not stop that - but it does address your own concern of Open rewards not being fair - so just remove open and job done."

It is just your opinion that Open is unfair. They provide game-modes so you can make your game more "fair", and play with who you want. I Don't see a reason to change that.

It is your opinion Open is unfair - you asked for more rewards because of it, not me. Removing Open solves this problem.

What is unfair is the lack of a multiplayer PvE game mode - as currently all multiplayer game modes allow for PvP.
And the only random grouping mode is PvP based as well. Removing it restores some of the tilt towards the favorite child known as PvP, as then all players need to find a group to play in not just 1 subset.

"Also, the insult was being accused of hiding in solo or solo being easier "

I never accused anyone of anything. Please show me the "accusation", I said I am fine with people going into solo to hide from pirates. You took issue with the word "hide" because it offended you. I apologized if it cause you any offense, I am not sure what else you would like me to do? Either way, I will say once again, I got the game in Beta, with Open play, and was happy with it. It appears you bough the game under the misapprehension it contained a PvE mode, and have repeatedly made accusations against FDEV that they have "lied" to you. I cannot resolve this issue for you, it is beyond my ability. I also said I would like to see more Online only competitions, like in CQC or in Open, because I think it is good for the community. This is not an insult, in any way against you.

I did, I've quoted you several times and you ignore or lie about what you said despite the quote being there for all to see.

 

[Demonseed]

Agreed, calling people Star Citizen trolls is not really helpful, and divisive. I don;t play the game, but i bet it must sting someone else who does play it who has to read it being used as an insult

It does. I love both games. I played the original Elite on my Commodore 64 till my joystick wore out and finally got to that elusive "Elite" rating. Frontier and FFC on my Amiga and the Wing Commanders and Privateer on my first PCs. It warms my heart that even now, at 40 years old and a veteran of the gaming industry, the old "game gods" have re-emerged from the shadows to blow the world away with their visions of what a real space game is with the help of crowd funding.

Granted, while I consider Chris Roberts a true "Game God", David Braben in my opinion is the "Ancient Dark God Cthulhu of Gaming"... from reading his blogs over the years, his grasp of advanced computer mathematics makes my head spin. What that man knows and is capable of in game design is a lost art. Elite Dangerous is exactly as I figured it would turn out with him at the helm - custom engine, custom everything from the ground up, realistic universe as possible, and will be everything Frontier First Contact aspired to be - but lacked the technology at the time - and more.

 

[The Wallet Inspector]

Ahh, old troll tactic of misquoting - one you've tried several times so far in the past half dozen pages.

The punctuation makes that very clear - saying solo is easy mode is insulting.
Asking for a play style to be removed pointed out your lie of not taking sides when you clearly are.

There is a comma plain as day right there - even in your quote of me, it is there.
Constantly misquoting and misspelling of names it clear proof why you are here, and its not to discuss anything.



It is your opinion Open is unfair - you asked for more rewards because of it, not me. Removing Open solves this problem.

What is unfair is the lack of a multiplayer PvE game mode - as currently all multiplayer game modes allow for PvP.
And the only random grouping mode is PvP based as well. Removing it restores some of the tilt towards the favorite child known as PvP, as then all players need to find a group to play in not just 1 subset.



I did, I've quoted you several times and you ignore or lie about what you said despite the quote being there for all to see.

"Ahh, old troll tactic of misquoting - one you've tried several times so far in the past half dozen pages."

Again, resorting to insulting adhominems and calling me a troll. Why not argue the points? What is my mis-quote exactly?

"The punctuation makes that very clear - saying solo is easy mode is insulting."

I never said that, and it was not insinuated. But either way, you seem to determined to take offense, to the point that my punctuation is hiding offensive statements.

"There is a comma plain as day right there - even in your quote of me, it is there.
Constantly misquoting and misspelling of names it clear proof why you are here, and its not to discuss anything.
"

Actually it is a disorder I have, and the spellcheck does not pick up on names. Either way, I have reported your comments and requested the mods ask you to stop focusing on what is essential a disability I have to deal with.

"What is unfair is the lack of a multiplayer PvE game mode"

Well there is the Moebius group? I also think this depends on your definition of "unfair".

"Removing it restores some of the tilt towards the favorite child known as PvP"

No, I think you will find FD consider ALL game modes equally valid, as do I!

"I did, I've quoted you several times and you ignore or lie about what you said despite the quote being there for all to see"

I have lied about nothing at all, I just clarified that I did not use the word "hide" in the pejorative. You seem very emotive, I don;t think your attitude to me is very healthy or constructive. You seem to have an intense dislike for people who are enjoying an amazing part of this game, and calling the "trolls" and repeatedly highlighting their disabilities is something I for one do not think belongs here.

 

[Koren]

Here's my thoughts on this debate:

1. A full criminality overhaul is needed. Piracy is an activity that has been severely punished by authorities for most of known history in the real world. Therefore, there needs to be meaningful consequences for pirates that kill or those who just kill other CMDRs for fun.

Two of my friends refuse to play in Open, and probably won't ever again because of two instances of "lol stupid die" commanders that harassed me and tried to destroy my ship while I was teaching new players the game. :/

The newbie areas should be maximum security, and no mercy given by the in-game authorities to commanders who seal-club new players for fun.

I still play in Open because I don't like the idea of shutting out the possibility of contact with anyone because of a few bad noodles. There is fun to be had in occasional PVP, but blatant griefing still needs to be punished by an in-game (not out of game) mechanism.

2. Something needs to be done against firewall abuse. Telemetry should be used to detect (and shadowban) anyone who, due to firewall or other configuration, is mysteriously only able to connect with trader ships and no one else.

3. Traders need a nasty surprise they can pull on pirate ships. I am thinking maybe a tracker tag or something that if the trader can hit the pirate with, it tags them for 24-48 hours. Then, anyone who has a kill warrant scanner and an option in Functions turned on can see their ship on the Galaxy map from 50LY or so away. It would also attempt to instance the two people together if possible.

 

[ianw]

2. Something needs to be done against firewall abuse. Telemetry should be used to detect (and shadowban) anyone who, due to firewall or other configuration, is mysteriously only able to connect with trader ships and no one else.

Has that become a "thing"?

 

[The Wallet Inspector]

It does. I love both games. I played the original Elite on my Commodore 64 till my joystick wore out and finally got to that elusive "Elite" rating. Frontier and FFC on my Amiga and the Wing Commanders and Privateer on my first PCs. It warms my heart that even now, at 40 years old and a veteran of the gaming industry, the old "game gods" have re-emerged from the shadows to blow the world away with their visions of what a real space game is with the help of crowd funding.

Granted, while I consider Chris Roberts a true "Game God", David Braben in my opinion is the "Ancient Dark God Cthulhu of Gaming"... from reading his blogs over the years, his grasp of advanced computer mathematics makes my head spin. What that man knows and is capable of in game design is a lost art. Elite Dangerous is exactly as I figured it would turn out with him at the helm - custom engine, custom everything from the ground up, realistic universe as possible, and will be everything Frontier First Contact aspired to be - but lacked the technology at the time - and more.

It all just reminds me of the Amiga glory days, the more the better as far as I am concerned.

 

[Demonseed]

Here's my thoughts on this debate:

1. A full criminality overhaul is needed. Piracy is an activity that has been severely punished by authorities for most of known history in the real world. Therefore, there needs to be meaningful consequences for pirates that kill or those who just kill other CMDRs for fun.

2. Something needs to be done against firewall abuse. Telemetry should be used to detect (and shadowban) anyone who, due to firewall or other configuration, is mysteriously only able to connect with trader ships and no one else.

3. Traders need a nasty surprise they can pull on pirate ships. I am thinking maybe a tracker tag or something that if the trader can hit the pirate with, it tags them for 24-48 hours. Then, anyone who has a kill warrant scanner and an option in Functions turned on can see their ship on the Galaxy map from 50LY or so away. It would also attempt to instance the two people together if possible.

1. Totally agree, no more letting the gunman shooting civilians romp through Times Square w/o a care in the world about cops.
2. Huh, had no idea that was even possible. Maybe if they encrypt the data stream so firewalls can't filter on it?
3. Nice idea! Maybe something that tags their ship with the current Bounty data for all to see. Can only be removed at a pirate port for a price?

 

[Jockey79]

"Ahh, old troll tactic of misquoting - one you've tried several times so far in the past half dozen pages."

Again, resorting to insulting adhominems and calling me a troll. Why not argue the points? What is my mis-quote exactly?

I have, you keep ignoring the points I make and misquoting me.

"The punctuation makes that very clear - saying solo is easy mode is insulting."

I never said that, and it was not insinuated. But either way, you seem to determined to take offense, to the point that my punctuation is hiding offensive statements.

Again, misquoting me - I said my punctuation made it clear that your accusation of "intention was to be insulting" was you misquoting me by ignoring what I'd typed.
I then typed it clearer for you - which you've ignored in favor of misquoting me again.

"There is a comma plain as day right there - even in your quote of me, it is there.
Constantly misquoting and misspelling of names it clear proof why you are here, and its not to discuss anything.
"

Actually it is a disorder I have, and the spellcheck does not pick up on names. Either way, I have reported your comments and requested the mods ask you to stop focusing on what is essential a disability I have to deal with.

But if you're not trolling why don't you add Mobius to your spell check? all you do is right click it and add - then done, you cannot spell it wrong again.
I've added your name to my spell check for that very reason.

And you're welcome to report any of my posts - the Mods are smart enough to read the full conversation and see exactly what I've pointed out and where people have put you on ignore for the reasons I've stated.
Also, your posts show the "last edited" date / time and if I'm right they can also see what you removed from each post.

I stand by my comments, if the mods are unhappy with me - then so be it. I'll not hide between crafty edits or double meanings.

"What is unfair is the lack of a multiplayer PvE game mode"

Well there is the Moebius group? I also think this depends on your definition of "unfair".

A private group is not a game mode - this has been explained 3 times by myself in the past dozen pages to you directly.
Private groups are not policed by FD, a true mode would be.

"I did, I've quoted you several times and you ignore or lie about what you said despite the quote being there for all to see"

I have lied about nothing at all, I just clarified that I did not use the word "hide" in the pejorative. You seem very emotive, I don;t think your attitude to me is very healthy or constructive. You seem to have an intense dislike for people who are enjoying an amazing part of this game, and calling the "trolls" and repeatedly highlighting their disabilities is something I for one do not think belongs here.

 

[The Wallet Inspector]

I have, you keep ignoring the points I make and misquoting me.



Again, misquoting me - I said my punctuation made it clear that your accusation of "intention was to be insulting" was you misquoting me by ignoring what I'd typed.
I then typed it clearer for you - which you've ignored in favor of misquoting me again.



But if you're not trolling why don't you add Mobius to your spell check? all you do is right click it and add - then done, you cannot spell it wrong again.
I've added your name to my spell check for that very reason.

And you're welcome to report any of my posts - the Mods are smart enough to read the full conversation and see exactly what I've pointed out and where people have put you on ignore for the reasons I've stated.
Also, your posts show the "last edited" date / time and if I'm right they can also see what you removed from each post.

I stand by my comments, if the mods are unhappy with me - then so be it. I'll not hide between crafty edits or double meanings.



A private group is not a game mode - this has been explained 3 times by myself in the past dozen pages to you directly.
Private groups are not policed by FD, a true mode would be.

"But if you're not trolling why don't you add Mobius to your spell check? all you do is right click it and add - then done, you cannot spell it wrong again.
I've added your name to my spell check for that very reason. "

I am not familiar with the forum tools, and have difficulty navigating certain things. You cannot blame me for not doing the correct things to make my disability less offensive to you. You just keep going on about it, keep accusing me of lying, of being insulting. All I wanted to do was talk about the game

"And you're welcome to report any of my posts - the Mods are smart enough to read the full conversation and see exactly what I've pointed out and where people have put you on ignore for the reasons I've stated."

As are you, since you have maintained from the start that I am a troll. You are throwing insults left right and center, why can you not just stop? Why is someone discussing the merits of Open Play offensive to you? You keep talking about the nasty things other people said, but insist on tone policing me to the point where I am supposed to do my research, and discover that the word "hide" needs a trigger warning attached before it is discussed in this thread.

"Also, your posts show the "last edited" date / time and if I'm right they can also see what you removed from each post."

Feel free to investigate, I have nothing to hide. I edit my posts to correct my terrible grammatical and spelling mistakes, where I can. It is not easy though for me. But whatever, you already made your position about that clear (ie only trolls misspell names).

For the final time, I like Open Play. I like the PvP, and the way it works. I like this game, and it contained the stuff I wanted when I bought it. I have no problem here. I consider Open to be more of a challenge than Solo, but then that is my opinion. I don;t have a problem with Commanders who switch modes to avoid trouble. If any of this is too offensive for you, then I am afraid that is not my fault.

"A private group is not a game mode - this has been explained 3 times by myself in the past dozen pages to you directly.
Private groups are not policed by FD, a true mode would be."

Actually there are 3 game modes, Private, Open and Solo, I am not really interested in the semantics of it though. They were in the game when I bought it (before release). Open PvE was not, but then I was not bothered about that. The Moebius group sounds cool, but not my thing.

 

[Jockey79]

"But if you're not trolling why don't you add Mobius to your spell check? all you do is right click it and add - then done, you cannot spell it wrong again.
I've added your name to my spell check for that very reason. "

I am not familiar with the forum tools,

It's nothing to do with forum tools - it's built into every major web browser by default - including the red underline when the spell check is unhappy.

since you have maintained from the start that I am a troll.

No, I've maintained that in my last few posts

For the final time, I like Open Play. I like the PvP, and the way it works. I like this game, and it contained the stuff I wanted when I bought it. I have no problem here. I consider Open to be more of a challenge than Solo, but then that is my opinion. I don;t have a problem with Commanders who switch modes to avoid trouble. If any of this is too offensive for you, then I am afraid that is not my fault.

That's fine, but you are going out of your way to belittle those who do not want to play your way.

Every suggestion of people being able to play without PvP is met by comments with "easier" / "hide" / "not needed"

Clearly, PvPers refuse to let PvEers play in a private group away from open, yet you keep saying PvEers don't need anything when they do - they need their own mode.

 

[The Wallet Inspector]

It's nothing to do with forum tools - it's built into every major web browser by default - including the red underline when the spell check is unhappy.



No, I've maintained that in my last few posts



That's fine, but you are going out of your way to belittle those who do not want to play your way.

Every suggestion of people being able to play without PvP is met by comments with "easier" / "hide" / "not needed"

Clearly, PvPers refuse to let PvEers play in a private group away from open, yet you keep saying PvEers don't need anything when they do - they need their own mode.

"That's fine, but you are going out of your way to belittle those who do not want to play your way."

I have done no such thing, please show me a valid example of where I have done that. Such behavior is against the rules of discussion, If I have enaged in it, feel free to report it. I think ALL game modes are equally valid, and people should play it their way. You made the claim you could not, because of Frontier Developments. This is a public forum where people will have different opinions.

"Every suggestion of people being able to play without PvP is met by comments with "easier" / "hide" / "not needed" "

Every suggestion, that I have responded to? Or are you talking about others now? So what If I think it is not needed, that is my opinion and I am allowed to have it, as long as I remain respectful. It is not an insult to maintain the game does not need a game mode that it never had to start with. I also never said anything bad about the Meobius group, you just keep repeating the same thing - that you are insulted. I take it on board, but I will not change my mind.

"Clearly, PvPers refuse to let PvEers play in a private group away from open, yet you keep saying PvEers don't need anything when they do - they need their own mode."

Well I am a PvPer, I never did that. I respect your private game, So clearly, the statement you made is a false generalisation. Can you not see how that would be insulting ?

 

[Koren]

Has that become a "thing"?

Network or firewall modification is the equivalent of combat logging on the side of the aggressors. It prevents people from being targeted by bounty hunters, but still allows them to pirate or grief.

Both firewalling and combat logging are non-legitimate ways to reduce PVP risk but still play in Open, and I think they should be addressed together with technical means, to make Open a more fair environment overall.

 

[ianw]

Network or firewall modification is the equivalent of combat logging on the side of the aggressors. It prevents people from being targeted by bounty hunters, but still allows them to pirate or grief.

Both firewalling and combat logging are non-legitimate ways to reduce PVP risk but still play in Open, and I think they should be addressed together with technical means, to make Open a more fair environment overall.

I've heard of people doing this in theory - it's been mentioned many many times in this thread but usually from the pov of firewalling out everyone effectively making open into solo.

I'd not heard of PVPers using it to specifically filter out bounty hunters or "whitelist" traders only.

I guess many things are possible technically - just wondered if you'd heard of this example happening.

 

[Yaffle]

Hello all

Please stop sniping at each other, it does not further the debate. If there is any still to be had after 25,000 posts.

 

[The Wallet Inspector]

Hello all

Please stop sniping at each other, it does not further the debate. If there is any still to be had after 25,000 posts.

Can you not see the progress we are making ?