The Star Citizen Thread v 3.0

[Monk]

Goodness...the consternation around this game now.

I am glad I only plonked down 30 buckaroos on this. Allows me to be patient, I suppose.

It may not end up being what people had imagined, and that is going to sting if you plopped down hundreds of moneys on this based on a specific vision of the game. Actually, this is where I feel CIG is playing with fire. I don't feel like you can ask for such large sums of money (for ships) without a concrete or immovable set of design decisions. I think that is wholly inappropriate. If people want to donate a large amount of money to a project, unsolicited, that is fine as they should understand the risk. However, I feel when you start selling game assets for fixed prices, you better be delivering on the perceived promises that go with those items.

FDev, played this game too, and rightfully got a truck load of negative press for it when they couldn't deliver on actual or perceived promises. This is the nature of crowd-funding, and I think it becomes a slippery slope into scope creep in the dash for cash.

I have a lot of confidence that CIG will deliver a great single player game. The PU to follow, not so much, but we'll see.

 

[onefroggyevening]

An interesting read:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4497650/rsi-contractor_why_I_am_quitting.pdf

Disturbing read. I wonder how all of this will pan out.

 

[Neo-ST]

An interesting read:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4497650/rsi-contractor_why_I_am_quitting.pdf

Whose letter is this?

 

[bliss]

Whose letter is this?

It's not signed. I found it posted on Reddit.

 

[ianw]

Someone is claiming it's this guy - though I can't see anything from the guy himself him confirming it;

ETA - removed link - unsubstantiated at present.

It's easy enough to find if anyone wants to.

 

[Toumal]

I don't know if that PDF is genuine, but the responses in Reddit reek of blind and religious defense of CIG. Quite embarassing to be honest.

 

[ianw]

I don't know if that PDF is genuine, but the responses in Reddit reek of blind and religious defense of CIG. Quite embarassing to be honest.

It's one of those innit?

If I were of a mind to defend CIG that's exactly what I'd do.

It certainly reads like someone who knows what they're talking about. It's a given that someone will tell the guy about the PDF so if he doesn't renounce it in the next few days it would look more solid.

 

[dannysquid]

It's not great, but I can imagine somebody writing something like the above about any of the bosses I had when I worked in games in the 90s! I think good morale is actually quite rare on game projects.

 

[Toumal]

So the source of that link appears to be this post:

http://www.dereksmart.org/2015/09/star-citizen-the-long-con/

Now, you may think of DS what you want (and I do want to go on record saying that his games are... not good), but he does raise a number of interesting points. It'll be interesting to see how this develops because the statements he makes he claims were vetted by a lawyer.

This is most likely going to end in a big lawsuit.


EDIT: I also think this is a problem: Very few people play AC, and most people don't enjoy it, according to this RSI forum poll: https://forums.robertsspaceindustri...ou-play-arena-commander-new-and-improved-poll

If this was Elite Dangerous Beta, and we would've had such poll results, then I would be really worried. Again, not saying ED doesn't have its share of problems, and I hope Frontier "gets it" (and perhaps does a little better with press releases in the future... )

 

[ianw]

So the source of that link appears to be this post:

http://www.dereksmart.org/2015/09/star-citizen-the-long-con/

Now, you may think of DS what you want (and I do want to go on record saying that his games are... not good), but he does raise a number of interesting points. It'll be interesting to see how this develops because the statements he makes he claims were vetted by a lawyer.

This is most likely going to end in a big lawsuit.

Looks that way.

 

[Nick 'Paradox' Parker]

I don't know if that PDF is genuine, but the responses in Reddit reek of blind and religious defense of CIG. Quite embarrassing to be honest.

Man the number of White Knights there are is in Reddit and the RSI forums is disturbing.

I brought up the need for an Official Poll on the developers moving IM to flightsticks and gamepads and you'd think I was asking for Star Citizen to be cancelled. It's like they have no idea that their used to be Official Polls on things like this. The funny thing is I think they have no idea that I am for Star Citizen being a great game and so they all have the be hostile with everything I say. Its like they want SC to be more of the same old same old they are used to. Too afraid to have to learn something new and challenging. If they keep it up SC will be the most expensive crowd-funded game that died out within two years due to their low quality gaming needs.

 

[Toumal]

My fear exactly. I mean, whether or not one believes that the project is managed well or not, the fact that there's so many rabid fans out there that defend the current status so violently is a kiss of death for any game. In the end, those people will abandon SC a few months after release and play the next COD or Skyrim 3 or somesuch.

 

[Nick 'Paradox' Parker]

My fear exactly. I mean, whether or not one believes that the project is managed well or not, the fact that there's so many rabid fans out there that defend the current status so violently is a kiss of death for any game. In the end, those people will abandon SC a few months after release and play the next COD or Skyrim 3 or somesuch.

Which would be even more annoying because they would effectively turn SC into CoD or BF4. I honestly do not think they should be changing anything major given the Year 1 pledge because those people (Yes myself included) are responsible for that first $21 Million that really got things started. You're basically telling those Year 1, 345,500 people to go screw themselves cause you've got their money. Hell at that time it was $35.5 Million. How can anyone just dismiss that?

 

[Monk]

As damaging as that letter might seem...it is fairly par for the course in much of software dev across other industries. I've been in software projects in financial services, data analytics and telecom and it pretty much describes several points in my career at one place or another.

Bad management is endemic in all things. Perhaps game developers have it better than the rest of us and that is why this person thinks a letter describing what so many deal with already is worthwhile...or maybe it is just the visibility of Star Citizen.

Grain of salt...that's all

 

[Neo-ST]

It's not (completely) the people's fault. There will always be different kinds of people.
The "catch" is that you need consistency from the beginning, to know what you want your project to be, and nurture that to the very end.
Therefore, it's CR's fault, because in the beginning he pitched the game as a real, skill demanding, space sim and attracted one group of a people.
Then, shortly after, that started to change and project went astray.
The pitch was no longer a real, skill demanding space sim, but relaxed, easy to control and aim Freelancer 2.0 with pretty graphics and clichéd universe - which attracted a completely different group of people, in our case and unfortunately, diagonally opposite.

Why the project changed, we can only assume, but if you ask me, I don't think they knew what they're getting themselves into with Cryengine.
When he was asked, CR said he chose it "because it looked most photo realistic" and that was his primary concern. Sensation of flight and aim was somewhere down the development line of concern, aka "we gonna think about it later".
That and the fact he didn't need to lose time (time = money) on building a new, proper engine.
Combine all that with aggressive but deceiving marketing and voilà.

 

[Monk]

It's not the people's fault. There will always be different kinds of people.
The "catch" is that you need consistency from the beginning, to know what you want your project to be, and nurture that to the very end.
Therefore, it's CR's fault, because in the beginning he pitched the game as a real, skill demanding, space sim and attracted one group of a people.
Then, shortly after, that started to change and project went astray.
The pitch was no longer a real, skill demanding space sim, but relaxed, easy to control and aim Freelancer 2.0 with pretty graphics and clichéd universe - which attracted a completely different group of people, in our case and unfortunately, diagonally opposite.

Why the project changed, we can only assume, but if you ask me, I don't think they knew what they're getting themselves into with Cryengine.
When he was asked, CR said he chose it "because it looked most photo realistic" and that was his primary concern. Sensation of flight and aim was somewhere down the development line of concern, aka "we gonna think about it later".
That and the fact he didn't need to lose time (time = money) on building a new, proper engine.
Combine all that with aggressive but deceiving marketing and voilà.

Very right...one thing though...wouldn't building an engine have added several more years? How long did Frontier work on COBRA? Hadn't they already made The Outsider with it?

Personally, I agree with you and if CR really wanted to build the best space game ever, a commitment to a totally awesome brand new engine would have been objective numero uno. However, it makes sense to try to tack on to an existing engine, especially when you start making promises to potential backers.

 

[Neo-ST]

Very right...one thing though...wouldn't building an engine have added several more years? How long did Frontier work on COBRA? Hadn't they already made The Outsider with it?

Personally, I agree with you and if CR really wanted to build the best space game ever, a commitment to a totally awesome brand new engine would have been objective numero uno. However, it makes sense to try to tack on to an existing engine, especially when you start making promises to potential backers.

Yes, it would take him several more years, but he would reap the benefits later.
It's literally this:

(Cobra is on the left)

Well, if you start making promises, you should first be sure you can deliver, otherwise you're gambling your credibility.

 

[Kramster]

Very right...one thing though...wouldn't building an engine have added several more years? How long did Frontier work on COBRA? Hadn't they already made The Outsider with it?

Personally, I agree with you and if CR really wanted to build the best space game ever, a commitment to a totally awesome brand new engine would have been objective numero uno. However, it makes sense to try to tack on to an existing engine, especially when you start making promises to potential backers.

But at the time of starting the project no one could have foreseen the huge amount of funding they would have available. What they are building looks great and everything finally feels it is coming together, had they also built a bespoke engine I don't think SC would have got this far and would cetainly be a less ambitious project.

@Neo-ST On the point of gameplay, had they stuck to making a game with a high skill requirement then it would have been a niche product with limited sales potential. SC is still looking like it will be harder than ED, at least if you use a stick I had a bit of a shock when I started in AC until I switched to the mouse which is indeed easy by comparison. As far as developement, I feel the goalposts moved so much mostly due to the huge response which allowed them to keep thinking bigger, maybe too big but I think they have reached a point where a line has been drawn, at least until post release in any industry.

As far as that pdf, if it is written by DS then wasn't he just a backer and not an employee? If so the letter seems misleading even if it does describe the woes of the design process, might well describe how he feels about his work on his own games. "Back to the drawing board" is not a cliche it is a fact of life when developing anything of quality.

 

[Neo-ST]

@Neo-ST On the point of gameplay, had they stuck to making a game with a high skill requirement then it would have been a niche product with limited sales potential.

Yes, but there's a difference between "DCS in space" type of difficulty (like Rogue System) and something that will put your HOTAS to good use and actually make you feel like you're flying a space ship and not a space turd.
I was thinking more of the latter.

 

[Kramster]

Yes, but there's a difference between "DCS in space" type of difficulty (like Rogue System) and something that will put your HOTAS to good use and actually make you feel like you're flying a space ship and not a space turd.
I was thinking more of the latter.

Agree, but I really think that they will bring it all back in line eventually. They are trying to market SC hotas setups and I don't see them leaving sticks at such a big disadvantage on release.
I have played ED with both stick and KBM and both seem fairly balanced so it isn't a big ask.
I tried both stick and mkb set ups in AC and agree mouse is currently way easier but have managed to learn to complete a drone VS to wave 18 with my stick which gave me quite a sense of achievement.
Took me hours to get my stick sensitivity and my keybinds right, but after a few runs it all started to feel better, way harder than ED, the mouse was a bit of a shock when I tried it afterwards though

Yes, it would take him several more years, but he would reap the benefits later.
It's literally this:

http://i.imgur.com/0HkavGm.jpg

(Cobra is on the left)

Although, so far, COBRA seems to have completely failed at providing what I would call an acceptable multiplayer experience