Yeah, I remember reading an interview where he said he worked, primarily on his own, building concept code but the kickstarter and therefore full dev started almost exactly three years ago.
The Star Citizen Thread v 3.0
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Yeah, I remember reading an interview where he said he worked, primarily on his own, building concept code but the kickstarter and therefore full dev started almost exactly three years ago.
No he worked with others to create the demo and video for the kickstarter. And CR him self said that dev started a year before the kickstarter.
Fair enough, still not that concerned if it has been three or four years. I totally understand backers get restless after 4 years, I myself haven't been onboard that long so I suppose I am less worried especially as I have not pledged a small fortune. Even the devs openly admit they are behind schedule and have been pretty upfront about delays, at least compared to more than a few developers out there. I am looking forward to seeing what is to come in the next few months as it appears that the parts are finally coming together, but if it turns out to be less than the promise then I will have only invested £30 in the project so again I am not as concerned as those who have backed for more.
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You should have gone through the hype, hope and excitement when RSI first opened their (first version of a) website claiming to resurrect the space sim genre in 2012, while we still had nothing, not even concept art...just some scarce text.
Maybe the people would then realize it was not only the money people invested in this game and why this crap we have today feels like disappointment.
Maybe the people would then realize it was not only the money people invested in this game and why this crap we have today feels like disappointment.
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True I was not there at the start and do not have the same set of expectations, therefore I am viewing SC and it's validity to me based on what it is now and that does not make my view of SC wrong, just different.
I sympathise and know only too well when a game concept grips your imagination and appears to be the very thing you are looking for only to see it turn into something far less than I imagined and yes I am looking at ED. Others enjoy ED for what it is and I respect their view of the game, it is just different to mine which is not only fine but expected.
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Not sure you can say CIG have been upfront with delays, they routinely wait till the last minute to delay for months to half a year. They have even only stated a delay after it had been delayed for months already. CIG have also lied about the reason for delays, or that they even happened. Heck it was thanks to backers making excuses that CIG changed their stance, that the dates they say are "in house" dates, and not real dates. It was a bunch of to excuse CIG's inability to deliver, what made it really funny was the date for the AC release was set for ONE day before the PB of ED release. CIG feel flat on their faces on that one. It was not until after missing that for weeks/months that CIG started calling their dates "internal". Lets not forget that FPS was delayed for multiplayer (same reason that AC was delayed), or is it delayed for animation, I can't keep track of what excuse they give at any given time.
First it was, no feature creep, its all stuff we already had planed. More money just means that we will be able to deliver more of the game sooner vs. releasing it after the launch of the game. Now its, well we have more money so of course it was feature creep, why did you guys not realize it was feature creep. Silly backers believing what we said, you should be believing what we say now.
@ 1500 Don't really disagree with anything you say, they have certainly made mistakes, overstretched etc but they wouldn't be the first dev to make such mistakes or fail get game features out to deadlines. Maybe I am naive but I think it goes with the territory in such a complex industry
Not the first, no...but one of the first and certainly the biggest to make such mistakes using backer funding instead of publisher dollars.
I have no problems with delays, I have a problem with lengthy delays then releasing crap. All the while hyping everyone up by talking about how amazing the Dev are and how amazing the content they are going to release is. Then of course they release it and its broken crap, CR explicitly stated that they could not release a "pre pre alpha" and that they would release a "more polished alpha" and yet he turns around and releases what he called a "pre alpha", all the while blaming the backers for the state of the game. If CIG has released quality work after these delays then no one would care.
CR has shown that he and the Dev will say anything the backers want to hear with out a care about if it will be true or not. Just go watch the Wingmans hangars, they are filled with hype and winks to the backers, all the while promising everything and nothing. "Nothing like Freelancer" hahaha, no we mean that it will have Joystick support (ya because that is the same thing). END of LTI so make sure you purchase your ships at our end of LTI sale, oh wait sorry we are bringing it back because it sells ships. Exclusive racing suit you can only get it with the 350r race package, months go by, ok you can purchase it in the store for $5, oh sorry nvm we will pull it because that would screw the past backers, racing suit added to the store just $5 (oh right we forgot again). No more limited sales, two weeks latter, ok first limited sale. SC will not have grind, CIG add endless grind because backers were unlocking rented items to easily. The list just goes on and on.
It has been made clear that CIG have no idea what they are making, and that there was no design document(heck two years in and they talk about just then created parts of it). The first priority was to sell ships, then make a game around said sold ships. Now they are facing the reality that none of the ships work in the system they created, and they now face some Frankenstein's monster of slapped together parts. Can it be fixed? Sure, but the process on how they are approaching this project will have to be changed first. I just don't see that happening.
But heck, I hope they prove me wrong, I would love to have another good space sim.
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To be honest I dont think that delays are the biggest issue in here at all...I mean sure its never good when they lied about the certain dates but I believe that most of backers are furious about the FM and overall lame game play which is noting as ppl. expected is going to be when back in the days of kickstarter CR promote BDSSE....You know he sell us simulation in space and now we getting just an arcade game that is not even fun to play by any arcade standards and it is obvious that now game growing into the FPS-Sims-Shops with easy flight mechanics and pay to win mentality.....and that is just BAD....
Well if your building big ships and aren't precise in engineering make measurement mistakes. But that building ships.
But in large scale software engineering. You split everything into smaller problems which are easier to handle.
In this case there are several modules in production where there is a lot of non shared similar place holder parts to make iets module playable and test able. And thus several version across modules.
But that leads of course to merge conflict need to be resolved. Which is what is expected.
It is means to handle and manage complexity.
They are in fase of merging in this fase there isn't much to show for. But when done they got single code base to work on. And now key features are combine implemented. And working together.
So AC isn't AC any more but SC ALFA on way to become feature complete after several public iteration and become one day BETA state. That what backers pledge for not AC 1.x.
Well this thread get occasional closed, so apparently these old fart act like teens a lot of times.Do you honestly believe that people would put so much energy into this thread if they didn't really believe what they are saying? This isn't some teen forum, it's largely old farts with responsibilities and time pressures.
Well youy mis read my post. Holigans are in any camp so nit SC forums not ED forums.
But any regular game forums like the dutch game magazine forums I encounter SC treads in. The are relaxed. Don't get close because of absent of those fan hooligan sqauds.
Yah so what, that true about ED. But you comparing a short production half featured game. With fix fund and hard deadlines. To a multy module production Where they stay very long in alfa stage before the merge the modules.
You would compare Angry birds to Fallout 4 to. Production Scope and scale has lot influence on funds needed and time.
There are much more factors but that big one is ignored it al stops.
Well how wrong you are I bet you expect they build the Dubai sky scr before some veteran house builders, build a small house
I expect that every module is working and test able branch and have everything it need to run and be tested. So place holder components. Which are iterated to.
If each module is in playable state after each iteration then there is some local balance state We experience only the AC type. After merge any balance isn't valid. Als several features come to gether and balance setting related to some feature sets in isolation. After the big merge and all features in place they can start with final balance refining iteration
For what you say I rather think you don't know.
High profile Licensable engines are result of decades of work. Most of them are very data driven. And have full implemented and supported content pipeline which make large team productive.
That fit a large production as SC is best.
Also If you program on render backend level instead up to the front where script programmer are. You aren't aware how refactor engine and content pipeline to extend them to fit a specific project better.
If you build a game from scratch. It take a large time to get the engine up and running. Much longer to get a productive asset pipeline on rails to get the most out those 100++ Art team.
Any market leading licensable engine is a flying start for fresh studio with limited code base.
ARMA is clunky because by FPS NPC animation this game object are complex. And if the scene is large with many animated char it heavy on hardware.Now, I might be wrong about this, but I do fear that Cobra isn't particularly geared towards FPS. I worry that once Frontier starts with the whole FPS expansion, it could end up feeling clunky. Then again, people love Arma despite it being a clunky mess so I guess it doesn't matter...
But I might be wrong. I hope I am
Games who are specialized in extreme animation are EA sport games and the have the in-house develop middle ware to power that. euphoria ? engine.
I also have read that DB choose for space game when He started with Elite because it the easiest genre to start with from a technical programming point.
The mistake that people make is FPS engine is made for genre that has terrain and animated objects. For space game you cut these heavy features out.
From technical point of view. A very basic spacecraft is simple static object. So if you got a teapot in a FPS. And have cut out terrain and any animated chars. Replace the teapot asset by a space craft and up the scale.
Sky box get instead clouds stars.
Frontier has made many games for also concole where there are animated object npc. players. So they got it in there studio code base to. So could be that Cobra inherited it when the worked on The outsider.
I've been a backer of SC from about the 6 million point of sure how long ago that is right now but it was well before I backed ED at the alpha stage.
I'm disappointed that CIG haven't really produced the goods yet but more so about the progress or lack of it. I can get over waiting as long as there is tangible improvement and proof of visions coming to fruition. FD at least seem to be making progress and are releasing content pretty quickly and mostly unbroken.
I don't see this from CIG.
They seem amateurish if I'm blunt. I'm sure there are incredibly talented people there but are those talents being directed and honed properly? I'm sceptical.
The "release" of the social module was a huge damp squib for me. One map with some dancing and emoting and yes it is pretty and yes I'm sure there's loads of backend stuff "somewhere" but to call this a release is really stretching the definition for me. Yes I'm sure they are adding to it but I read with dismay that soon the shops will be a thing and yes you can spend more hard earned in them. How exciting!!!! Another money sick for a game that really needs to show it's a game at all.
Had a gin maybe I'm bitter. Sorry.
I'm disappointed that CIG haven't really produced the goods yet but more so about the progress or lack of it. I can get over waiting as long as there is tangible improvement and proof of visions coming to fruition. FD at least seem to be making progress and are releasing content pretty quickly and mostly unbroken.
I don't see this from CIG.
They seem amateurish if I'm blunt. I'm sure there are incredibly talented people there but are those talents being directed and honed properly? I'm sceptical.
The "release" of the social module was a huge damp squib for me. One map with some dancing and emoting and yes it is pretty and yes I'm sure there's loads of backend stuff "somewhere" but to call this a release is really stretching the definition for me. Yes I'm sure they are adding to it but I read with dismay that soon the shops will be a thing and yes you can spend more hard earned in them. How exciting!!!! Another money sick for a game that really needs to show it's a game at all.
Had a gin maybe I'm bitter. Sorry.
Wowa!
That's some strong bitterness coming down those 'feelings' for a video-game, then again, following a big project is not for everyone.
My take is that people have gotten so close and personal with a video-game that they lost any resemblance of reasoning. While they might think that supporting the game from the very inception makes them assess it's development better than the ones "arriving" late, I strongly feel the opposite. When some get so emotionally attached to something they tend to loose sight of reasoning, and I can guess that's what happens in the case of Star Citizen.
People with high expectations but that seemed to forget that ultimately, they were backing something very personal and that they ultimately had not that much control in. And that it would be such a huge, long endeavour. With that came the frustration, than later turned into bitterness and is now getting into a burden that ends up taking its toll in some folks. That goes without saying that everything is fine and dandy with this behemoth of game in the making! Au contraire, but in the clear scope of things, nothing less was expected from such a big task of video-game development. Much more when it's being made the way it is, with so many features at the same time. My advice is hang in there folks, I know, we know, that in the end all the money spent in the game is our own responsibility. Learn to cope with it in the best way, try asking for a refund or even better sell your stuff for a profit, when the game comes out you can watch the reviews and then decide if it's worth the purchase.
That's some strong bitterness coming down those 'feelings' for a video-game, then again, following a big project is not for everyone.
My take is that people have gotten so close and personal with a video-game that they lost any resemblance of reasoning. While they might think that supporting the game from the very inception makes them assess it's development better than the ones "arriving" late, I strongly feel the opposite. When some get so emotionally attached to something they tend to loose sight of reasoning, and I can guess that's what happens in the case of Star Citizen.
People with high expectations but that seemed to forget that ultimately, they were backing something very personal and that they ultimately had not that much control in. And that it would be such a huge, long endeavour. With that came the frustration, than later turned into bitterness and is now getting into a burden that ends up taking its toll in some folks. That goes without saying that everything is fine and dandy with this behemoth of game in the making! Au contraire, but in the clear scope of things, nothing less was expected from such a big task of video-game development. Much more when it's being made the way it is, with so many features at the same time. My advice is hang in there folks, I know, we know, that in the end all the money spent in the game is our own responsibility. Learn to cope with it in the best way, try asking for a refund or even better sell your stuff for a profit, when the game comes out you can watch the reviews and then decide if it's worth the purchase.
The sad thing is that much of team, especially CR are far from amateurs. From what I can tell, their leads and directors are all well seasoned folks who have all completed development projects of varying degrees of success. In the software business, we always say you can't have all three ---cheap, fast, good--- you can have two but something else has to give. CIG is in the wonderful position where they don't have to choose...they have a lot of money, plenty of time and want to make it as good as possible...so they are just picking good, in this case and letting cheap and fast turn to expensive and slow. The problem with this scenario, however, is that when you have lots of money and lots of time, you become susceptible to poor commitment (b/c we got lots of time) and bad budgeting (we got lots of money). With those factors involved, good become harder and harder to reach (as project goals become more soft targets than hard deadlines) and invariably increase cost and time trying to get there.
In this situation, nothing short of a full-stop followed by self-imposed budget and time diet will bring a finished product into view.
mmmm, gin
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Yes, and? The Cobra Engine has had lots of work poured into it as well. Your point?
I'm a full time software developer with 14 years of experience. And I don't know what the heck you're talking about. CE is a game engine with a certain toolchain, an editor, an API, and (for source licensees) sourcecode so you can compile your own stuff and make engine level modifications. If you compare the various engines on the market right now, you'll find that they share a lot of similarities.
Again, your point being? I didn't say that CIG should've written their own engine from scratch at all costs. That would be an option, but it's an expensive one. But they could've picked an engine that, uh, I dunno, supports double precision math out of the box for example?
Having a toolchain to import models, animations and textures, edit maps etc. are not things that are special to CE.
Heck if you want to do a space game and want double precision out of the box you might even use Granny3D instead. It's been around for over a decade, but the engine is still being developed to date and used in tons of games, yet few people ever heard the name. We used to use it for some simulation stuff (I'm not a game developer myself, we do aviation-related stuff). I'm not saying they should've used that one in particular, but to me certain requirements are simply not met by CE out of the box, and require massive amounts of work to get going reliably and smoothly. The FPS portions of SC are the biggest pro-CE argument there is. Everything else pretty much speaks against CE as engine of choice.
Ugh. You know, when someone on an internet forum tells me that I don't know about the stuff I work with, that's when I put them on ignore. Because really, that's not a debate anymore. You think I'm just making things up? Fine. As the famous comic goes, on the internet, nobody knows you're a dog. And I don't get paid to convince people like you, I'm on this forum because I like Elite for what it delivered, and I would hate to see SC bomb. And as far as I'm concerned people who defend stupid ideas are a problem for any game. Dissent is good, when it's well articulated.
There's another thread on this forum from a SC-fan who's had feedback regarding Elite's CQC, and I think his input is extremely valuable because he's able to articulate it in a way that highlights what he thinks are bad things in Elite - not to discredit the game, but to make it better.
I think SC's technical foundation is not well suited for what they want to do. It's too late to change that now though.
I agree with everything you said here.
Apart from the bit about the "SC Ace's" feedback. He seems to think his opinion carries more weight because he's a self confessed AC "ace". Which is like saying "I'm really good at American football so you should pay special attention to my opinion about what's wrong with Football" *
Even though he clearly doesn't seem to understand CQC in the way that many others do.
* Football is what people who often don't know much about Football refer to as "Soccer".
ETA - I had to Google the spelling of Soccer - it just looks wrong but apparently it's right. Looks slightly better with a capital "S".
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Nice to know this, your opinions are highly valuable.
In your opinion, do you think they can pull this off with this Frankenstein of the engine they made ?
Or will the stitches always be noticeable ?
Some info dropped by CR:
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/3m3dzv/notes_from_reverse_the_verse_chairman_edition/
Interesting bits:
The many different flight modes sounds . . convoluted. It could be an improvement though.
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/3m3dzv/notes_from_reverse_the_verse_chairman_edition/
Interesting bits:
The many different flight modes sounds . . convoluted. It could be an improvement though.
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Well they had to add in "'Precision' is the lowest speed, landing, maneuvering" because their demo showed just how bad their FM really is during the taking off parts. The fact that they are implementing this instead of fixing their current FM is not a good sign. You should not need two FM for just flying and taking off/landing, if your FM is so imprecise that it can't handle landing well...perhaps you should work some more on the FM not implement a band-aid to get around it.
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You know Derek smart is also a veteran dev with in the genre. Does not mean he right. Partly he might be as it are bunch of point he adresses. Well also his opinion has some weight. But devs can be baised to. And it also depend in what league and in what position they haved worked.
It very common that dev pick a licensable engine and modify it that after some major modifications give it even it own name.
The IDSoft IDtech engine where starting point of other engines and the family tree is huge.
Example source engine.
Calling it franken stein engine is fact of bais hate agains CiG and there engine choice.
But let say they do poor job. Like hacking features in. That does happen in the game industry a lot due to harsh deadline and crunch time pressure. Geting conflicts with overal set software architecture crytech team did. Braking the software achitecture from clean into mess. Can lead to lots of bugs in the long run.
Well that posible. Alone these enginering details are not public. It asumtion based on what.
With ex crytech team members in there CiG engine team. They got expert knowledge of the Engine .
So I would not expect much hacking and short cuts. But it doesn't exclude it.
How ever after lot of modifications it can become so heavy modified they could give it its own name.
Also with this engine expertise in house going for DX12 support is posible.
They can go for cryengine update and merge that with there own.
So You treat CiG as they are amatures, ignore some crusial facts.
While CR is triple A developer whit his sucsesses and failures. So big production is bit his thing and is aiming for it. Mis management is possible. But there is also his brother who might put eye on it. And he also sees the big picture and funding. We have not the insight like CR brother does to see if financial state is bad to the size they are at and compared to the latest production planing and if there room for delays.
Also they have engine team studio with a lot of ex crytech workers. Which mean they have the team to do extensive engine modifications.
Also after 2 years of more full production the content pipeline is modified to be more productive designing space craft through each fase. And early fases keep requierments better in check of later fases and there requierments.
It becoming cry engine version for space games.
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