The Star Citizen Thread v 3.0

[Barking_Mad]

Good post, I can't rep you again, so

The whole project is a mess in my fairly limited view. It seems to have lacked any clear direction for a long time. Whether it can get that late in the day is a big ask.

 

[Frank]

I think it's probably aimed to be satirical - she is probably trying to make a point about continuing taking things out of context to get attention and make things sound like something they are not, and continually threatening to sue anybody who disagrees or criticizes.

I didn't know that. The video looks bad... taken out of context <grin>

 

[Leper Messiah]

Hate is too strong of a word. "Disappointment" is perhaps a better term, and I can try to offer an explanation:

I rarely play singleplayer games these days. I'm mostly looking for coop experiences, stuff I can play together with friends. I don't mind the occasional team vs. team fight but the main point is I like to play with my friends.
When the SC Kickstarter was running, and Elite's Kickstarter was starting up, none of my friends had backed either game. But most of those who did back a game chose Star Citizen. Most people I know didn't back both games because they figured, hey I'm gonna play one game, not two. Star Citizen looks to be the be-all end-all of space games, so I might as well focus on that.
I have one friend who "backed" 4000 Euros, another spent about 400 Euros. I have several others who generally spent above 200 Euros on various packages for Star Citizen. Very few of those got Elite, for one reason, which I heard over and over this past 2 years:

"Nah I'm not gonna play Elite, I know it looks cool but I'm gonna wait for Star Citizen... I mean I already paid for it, so why should I buy Elite."

The good thing of this whole debacle is that of those people, half a dozen have decided to either cut their losses and sell their ship packages, get Elite, or do both. Another 5 are thinking about selling their SC stuff and/or getting a refund, but are still on the fence for some reason. I should add that all of these people were absolutely positive that they would be playing Star Citizen, all of it, long before Elite even got planetary landings done - which is why they didn't want to even consider giving it a go.

So these people, thanks to the flowery marketing messages and optimistic release date promises of CIG, have held out on other games (not just Elite, but it's the closest example at this point) because Star Citizen is gonna come out soon.

And then things got postponed, and the fans were blamed because we were so impatient as to expect a release at the date specified by CIG.

Then AC was released, and it was frankly awful. Then it emerged that the game is basically a joke to play with the mouse, and impossible using Joysticks. Then the whole ESP issue, and the terrible flight feeling justified by CIG by pulling a Steve Jobs ("It feels bad because it's so hyperrealistic"). Then a long period of time with insignificant updates (a racing mode, more ships, then the "social module").

Now finally, people are starting to wake up. As I said I've had several people sell of their assets and/or get refunds. Some of them have gotten Elite now, others are now scared that Elite (even though already released) might be another Star Citizen waiting to happen after all.


My problem with Star Citizen is that even though they are currently not in a position where bold announcement are going to cut it, they are still doing it: They post bold claims on their website, it's gonna revolutionize PC gaming, it "reinvented" PC gaming, it's so scientifically accurate. They show demos at Citizencon, but no release date. And why do we not get a release date? "Because people gave us crap for mentioning dates".
As I wrote earlier, that's one of the most breathtaking victim cards I've ever seen played. "I'm not going to tell you when I'll fulfil my part of the deal because I've missed prior dates, and that's on you because you shouldn't expect me to keep the dates I set myself"

For the past 2 years public pressure on anyone criticizing Star Citizen was extremely high. If you doubted their grand vision, you were basically an idiot. Smart people and even friends didn't heed my warnings. Wait a little. Don't back more than the base package until you've been given something that is "good".



I know several folks who played Elite but stopped because they got bored. Most of them after having played more than 100 hours, some over 400-500 hours. They're waiting for Horizons now. Most still play the game once or twice a week, just not all the time anymore. But you know what? I don't know a single one who plays Arena Commander anymore. And most of them stopped playing after just a few hours. Do you see the problem? People who paid 60 bucks played more than a hundred hours, people who paid more than 200 got bored of the demo after a few hours and are still waiting for the product.

I don't hate Star Citizen. But I cannot hear the same old rhetoric anymore that great things are going to come "soon". AC will be fixed "soon". Flight will be awesome "soon". Buy our concept ship now for nine hundred real Dollars. It's like in that episode of Futurama: "We take lungs now, gills come next week. NURSE!"

Frankly I find the frothing fanboys shrieking exclamations that CIG doesn't owe backers anything to be mind-boggingly silly. And the reaction for any question about the sanity or logic are met with blind hate. These people don't even read the counterarguments, they just ignore them. One guy commented on a critical youtube video by Corpsealot: "Damnit, now you made me watch a few more minutes of it".

That's right, he posted a defense for CIGs past track record without having heard the arguments. And further discussions had him have to watch the video he was commenting on. God forbid! But hey, 50% downvotes.

And that is a big problem. We can't have a debate when one side won't even listen, and just blindly regurgitates statements, like "what has been shown at Citizencon". They showed a satellite? Really? Wow that's amazing, this changes everything.

I'm happy and relieved when actual arguments come up, such as this from Helfix:

Thanks for the reply, yeah hate is too strong a word.

Ah, that's something I picked up on in the pCARS issue, the people who want to race online don't like empty servers for "their" game of choice so primarily want people to support their game of choice. Personally I'm single player only as I feel mp stuff is story light and ultimately boring (I tried the SWBF open Beta and was crushed by my own imagination saying how awesome a SP story driven game using that engine would be!).

I can't understand people dropping hundreds and thousands on a game though, no amount of hype will make me do that (well maybe if someone did a remake of the Xwing and TIE fighter games I'd prolly keep chucking money at that project!!). Was it the hype that led people to spend that amount of money?? Is hype THAT powerful?

But why do you "care" so much about the hype now? Does it matter to you if someone else buys a package for the game? This is the thing I'm struggling most to comprehend about those not so enamoured with the concept of SC anymore.

Sorry to the mods if this is too off topic. I'm going to be (hopefully) having a play of SC this afternoon and I'll make my own mind up about the games merits at this stage of development.

 

[ianw]

Was reading the Polygon article and it reminded me of this bit Chris said - after the bit about getting "crap" (paraphrased) for giving dates.

"We're not very far away from being content and functionality complete," he said. "That will be in the near future, by which I mean inside... soon."

Has that been expanded on anywhere? What does he mean by "content and functionality complete"?

http://www.polygon.com/2015/10/12/9...ase-date-citizencon-star-marine-chris-roberts

 

[Toumal]

Has that been expanded on anywhere? What does he mean by "content and functionality complete"?

One would assume he means the "Mini-PU", which is all modules working together in one small-scale version of the full game. That means flight, FPS, interstellar travel, multicrew.

But why do you "care" so much about the hype now? Does it matter to you if someone else buys a package for the game? This is the thing I'm struggling most to comprehend about those not so enamoured with the concept of SC anymore.

Part of me is feeling vindicated after having been told to shut up countless times by fans. Part of me is having a "see, I told you" moment after friend reactions to stories from Elite being just a shrug and "meh, I guess that was fun for you, but I hear Star Citizen is gonna have a much deeper/more detailed/better/cooler <insert feature here>". And part of me is angry at seeing someone else's irresponsible spending habits being used.

And damnit, because duty calls!


(Disclaimer: Elite's netcode still sucks and they really need to make missions a lot more interesting, and I think they kinda sorta botched Powerplay too because they didn't add compelling reasons to participate. So don't be tempted to call me a fanboy )

 

[ianw]

But why do you "care" so much about the hype now? Does it matter to you if someone else buys a package for the game? This is the thing I'm struggling most to comprehend about those not so enamoured with the concept of SC anymore.

For me I don't "care" how someone else spends their money but after nearly three years of the sales hype thing going on I am disappointed that it still continues with nothing of substance that I can play and enjoy so far...

I don't subscribe to the DS full on the wheel is coming off theory but nether does it comes off as being well managed and on course either right now. There still seems to be an element of making it up as they go along.

 

[Zyll Goliat]

Was reading the Polygon article and it reminded me of this bit Chris said - after the bit about getting "crap" (paraphrased) for giving dates.

"We're not very far away from being content and functionality complete," he said. "That will be in the near future, by which I mean inside... soon."

Has that been expanded on anywhere? What does he mean by "content and functionality complete"?

http://www.polygon.com/2015/10/12/9...ase-date-citizencon-star-marine-chris-roberts

CR quote :"EVERYONE GIVES ME HATE FOR GIVING YOU DATES, BUT LET ME SAY IT'S IN THE NEAR FUTURE."-This is just demagoguery ,it's like he is been a victim now and everyone attacking him for no reason?¿....

 

[Mr.Nowak]

Gary Oldman has a video message to all Citizens!

It's great to see him onboard. Mark Hamill seems to be very passionate as well. He favorited a lot of tweets from SC backers.

[video=vimeo;142328244]https://vimeo.com/142328244[/video]

 

[CmdrJacks]

The parody was fine... a little forced and of bad taste... but fine... until that message in the end. That message made her liable. That was stupid. There is no such law that allows make fun on "idiots". In any country of any planet
She could claim that was just making fun in the guy, that was not in bad intention. But that final message actually proven that was in bad intention. That was with the intention to humilliate, bullying, and confessed as in bad faith by the author in the own video.
/facepalm

It's actually a bit more complicated since recently: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-29408121

It would be down to a judge to decide if it is "funny" and if so, it should be protected as satire. I quite like these "mashups" when done well (see Cassette Boy). I make no comment on this particular video other than to defend her (moral) right to say whatever she wants.

 

[ZeeWolf]

I do find it a bit odd that after three years they still have no idea what the development velocity is.

The community seems to have accepted that big games take time, so I don't understand why it's always been "we're just months away from release" with Star Citizen. The dog fighting module was "days away" until it had to be bigger and better and so it wasn't anymore, the FPS module was "weeks away" until it had to be bigger and better etc.

I understand they are probably focusing on Sprints but it doesn't take a genius project manager to get some seriously rough estimates against the back-log and realise that stuff is years away from completion.

Everyone seems to think the game is now in AAA dev territory and therefore should be expected in another 2-3 years or more, why don't they just say "We need another three years"?

The cynic in me thinks it's because they get more funding this way.

 

[Toumal]

@Zyll: Yup. People complained about how buggy and unpleasant to fly things were in AC Alpha and Chris Roberts claimed that the reason AC was released in a buggy state was because of the fans being so impatient.

Now, we don't get any dates whatsoever, because we gave him prandial byproduct for giving dates.

 

[Barking_Mad]

I'd like to hear them talk about game play and what they have lined up for the Alpha.

 

[xyphic]

The cynic in me thinks it's because they get more funding this way.

The cynic in me wonders if they have any incentive whatsoever to produce an actual game at this point. Before the thing has even released they're bringing in something like $2m per month, or the equivalent of something like 30k $60 unit sales per month.

When they release the game, that income stream changes dramatically. Their existing customer base, those who are happy to throw money at concept sales, stop being the cash cow. Instead they have to rely on *new* sales and that's a scary place to be. Your future is then make or break on how good the product you delivered is. So yeah, why not keep developing until you've milked that cash cow dry?

FWIW, I'm not implying that this is what's going on. But the longer development continues for and the more the scope of the project keeps increasing and churning, the more it looks like that from the outside. I hope I'm wrong. I hope that for the £30 I paid I get a AAA game that I can play for years to come. Hope is pretty much all I have at this point. ;-)

 

[ianw]

The cynic in me wonders if they have any incentive whatsoever to produce an actual game at this point. Before the thing has even released they're bringing in something like $2m per month, or the equivalent of something like 30k $60 unit sales per month.

When they release the game, that income stream changes dramatically. Their existing customer base, those who are happy to throw money at concept sales, stop being the cash cow. Instead they have to rely on *new* sales and that's a scary place to be. Your future is then make or break on how good the product you delivered is. So yeah, why not keep developing until you've milked that cash cow dry?

FWIW, I'm not implying that this is what's going on. But the longer development continues for and the more the scope of the project keeps increasing and churning, the more it looks like that from the outside. I hope I'm wrong. I hope that for the £30 I paid I get a AAA game that I can play for years to come. Hope is pretty much all I have at this point. ;-)

Yeah - I can just see the monthly meetings now;

"..... So, next up on the agenda - the money hose. It's currently hosing in circa $2 mill per month - so when do we want to start scaling that down?"

"Anyone?"

"Does anyone have DS on speed dial for some advice?"

.
.
.
.

 

[Mr.Nowak]

The cynic in me wonders if they have any incentive whatsoever to produce an actual game at this point. Before the thing has even released they're bringing in something like $2m per month, or the equivalent of something like 30k $60 unit sales per month.

When they release the game, that income stream changes dramatically. Their existing customer base, those who are happy to throw money at concept sales, stop being the cash cow. Instead they have to rely on *new* sales and that's a scary place to be. Your future is then make or break on how good the product you delivered is. So yeah, why not keep developing until you've milked that cash cow dry?

FWIW, I'm not implying that this is what's going on. But the longer development continues for and the more the scope of the project keeps increasing and churning, the more it looks like that from the outside. I hope I'm wrong. I hope that for the £30 I paid I get a AAA game that I can play for years to come. Hope is pretty much all I have at this point. ;-)

The game is getting made and all the proof is over at their website. There is a weekly show that gives an overall update on the development of the game. A weekly livestream where you can ask questions to the team about the development of the game. A weekly segment on monday where 10 questions from the community are answered. There is a monthly in depth report that shows what exactly they are working on. This is divided by each studio and each category like Art, Animation, Engineering and so on. There is a monthly 50-70 page magazine called Jump Point it features behind the scenes development snippets. The evolution of design concepts and interior communication between all the people who work on it. You can see their messages as they talk about a certain development goal. Even CR's comments on things. This get's released as WIP segments on the main website. On top of this you have the Ask A Dev threads where many questions regarding certain parts of the game are answered. There is also the occasional design post that details their designs.

So yea. 280 people are working hard on the game. Not sitting about and waiting for Crowdfunding money to come in.

 

[Leper Messiah]

Part of me is feeling vindicated after having been told to shut up countless times by fans. Part of me is having a "see, I told you" moment after friend reactions to stories from Elite being just a shrug and "meh, I guess that was fun for you, but I hear Star Citizen is gonna have a much deeper/more detailed/better/cooler <insert feature here>". And part of me is angry at seeing someone else's irresponsible spending habits being used.

And damnit, because duty calls!


(Disclaimer: Elite's netcode still sucks and they really need to make missions a lot more interesting, and I think they kinda sorta botched Powerplay too because they didn't add compelling reasons to participate. So don't be tempted to call me a fanboy )

Yeah I get that, had a few infractions here for speaking my mind and treading on some toes of opinions I just "had" to counter! Fair enough. I wouldn't call anyone arguing here fanboys, like I said it feels more like extreme disappointment from people rather than just ragging on the game "because".

For me I don't "care" how someone else spends their money but after nearly three years of the sales hype thing going on I am disappointed that it still continues with nothing of substance that I can play and enjoy so far...

I don't subscribe to the DS full on the wheel is coming off theory but nether does it comes off as being well managed and on course either right now. There still seems to be an element of making it up as they go along.

I understand this too. Especially after my initial play this afternoon (thoughts to come).

 

[Barking_Mad]

Hey Mr.Nowak - can you explain what sort of gameplay you expect from the Alpha? Has it been discussed? There's been lots of talk about the game, but not so much about the play part

 

[Toumal]

The game is getting made and all the proof is over at their website. There is a weekly show that gives an overall update on the development of the game. A weekly livestream where you can ask questions to the team about the development of the game.

Great! When can I play it? Because at this point, little else matters. Not another demonstration. A download.

 

[xyphic]

So yea. 280 people are working hard on the game. Not sitting about and waiting for Crowdfunding money to come in.

Of course. My (overly) cynical post simply points out that there's little to no incentive for them to finish up and release a game as long as their backers continue to pump money in. Ironically there's more risk in releasing the game than in continually developing it.

 

[Neo-ST]

Guys...just stop giving them money and watch game getting completed hastily.
It's that simple, but people can't resist.

Hate is too strong of a word. "Disappointment" is perhaps a better term, and I can try to offer an explanation:

I rarely play singleplayer games these days. I'm mostly looking for coop experiences, stuff I can play together with friends. I don't mind the occasional team vs. team fight but the main point is I like to play with my friends.
When the SC Kickstarter was running, and Elite's Kickstarter was starting up, none of my friends had backed either game. But most of those who did back a game chose Star Citizen. Most people I know didn't back both games because they figured, hey I'm gonna play one game, not two. Star Citizen looks to be the be-all end-all of space games, so I might as well focus on that.
I have one friend who "backed" 4000 Euros, another spent about 400 Euros. I have several others who generally spent above 200 Euros on various packages for Star Citizen. Very few of those got Elite, for one reason, which I heard over and over this past 2 years:

"Nah I'm not gonna play Elite, I know it looks cool but I'm gonna wait for Star Citizen... I mean I already paid for it, so why should I buy Elite."

The good thing of this whole debacle is that of those people, half a dozen have decided to either cut their losses and sell their ship packages, get Elite, or do both. Another 5 are thinking about selling their SC stuff and/or getting a refund, but are still on the fence for some reason. I should add that all of these people were absolutely positive that they would be playing Star Citizen, all of it, long before Elite even got planetary landings done - which is why they didn't want to even consider giving it a go.

So these people, thanks to the flowery marketing messages and optimistic release date promises of CIG, have held out on other games (not just Elite, but it's the closest example at this point) because Star Citizen is gonna come out soon.

And then things got postponed, and the fans were blamed because we were so impatient as to expect a release at the date specified by CIG.

Then AC was released, and it was frankly awful. Then it emerged that the game is basically a joke to play with the mouse, and impossible using Joysticks. Then the whole ESP issue, and the terrible flight feeling justified by CIG by pulling a Steve Jobs ("It feels bad because it's so hyperrealistic"). Then a long period of time with insignificant updates (a racing mode, more ships, then the "social module").

Now finally, people are starting to wake up. As I said I've had several people sell of their assets and/or get refunds. Some of them have gotten Elite now, others are now scared that Elite (even though already released) might be another Star Citizen waiting to happen after all.


My problem with Star Citizen is that even though they are currently not in a position where bold announcement are going to cut it, they are still doing it: They post bold claims on their website, it's gonna revolutionize PC gaming, it "reinvented" PC gaming, it's so scientifically accurate. They show demos at Citizencon, but no release date. And why do we not get a release date? "Because people gave us crap for mentioning dates".
As I wrote earlier, that's one of the most breathtaking victim cards I've ever seen played. "I'm not going to tell you when I'll fulfil my part of the deal because I've missed prior dates, and that's on you because you shouldn't expect me to keep the dates I set myself"

For the past 2 years public pressure on anyone criticizing Star Citizen was extremely high. If you doubted their grand vision, you were basically an idiot. Smart people and even friends didn't heed my warnings. Wait a little. Don't back more than the base package until you've been given something that is "good".



I know several folks who played Elite but stopped because they got bored. Most of them after having played more than 100 hours, some over 400-500 hours. They're waiting for Horizons now. Most still play the game once or twice a week, just not all the time anymore. But you know what? I don't know a single one who plays Arena Commander anymore. And most of them stopped playing after just a few hours. Do you see the problem? People who paid 60 bucks played more than a hundred hours, people who paid more than 200 got bored of the demo after a few hours and are still waiting for the product.

I don't hate Star Citizen. But I cannot hear the same old rhetoric anymore that great things are going to come "soon". AC will be fixed "soon". Flight will be awesome "soon". Buy our concept ship now for nine hundred real Dollars. It's like in that episode of Futurama: "We take lungs now, gills come next week. NURSE!"

Frankly I find the frothing fanboys shrieking exclamations that CIG doesn't owe backers anything to be mind-boggingly silly. And the reaction for any question about the sanity or logic are met with blind hate. These people don't even read the counterarguments, they just ignore them. One guy commented on a critical youtube video by Corpsealot: "Damnit, now you made me watch a few more minutes of it".

That's right, he posted a defense for CIGs past track record without having heard the arguments. And further discussions had him have to watch the video he was commenting on. God forbid! But hey, 50% downvotes.

And that is a big problem. We can't have a debate when one side won't even listen, and just blindly regurgitates statements, like "what has been shown at Citizencon". They showed a satellite? Really? Wow that's amazing, this changes everything.

I'm happy and relieved when actual arguments come up, such as this from Helfix:



Excellent point good Sir. I tip my hat, even though I disagree. We know that the Cobra engine required extensive modifications to make it work for ED. Plus it's a proprietary engine, unlike CE which you can basically jobhunt for. Effectively that should make getting effective developers for CE quicker, because you can hire people who already know the engine. Frontier couldn't do that, they had to hire people and get them up to speed. Also, Chris had several people working on the prototype for quite some time before they started their KS campaign. So I don't think the whole "ED just had a huge head start" argument really holds. But you see, I appreciate your differentiated argument. On the other hand, other people are still claiming that ED has been in full development since 2008, then 2007, and recently someone even claimed 2006. So the fans change their own tune over time too. And it's been proven wrong already, but they just repeat and repeat.

Why?

Because Star Citizen breaks the boundaries of the Genre? Please.



Did you notice something?

My post didn't mention CIG working conditions, The Escapist, or Derek Smart, at all.

Great post, had to quote it.