Is it time once again to nerf the Python?

You are babbling. No, more expensive stuff should perform better. Should every ship perform equally regardless of price? Otherwise we should all get stock Sidewinders and no upgrades and that's it.
I don't think I'm entitled to an overpower ship, I think I'm entitled to a reasonably powered ship for the money I spend on it.
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Explain exactly how more expensive ships should not perform better in your little world?

Edit: I doubt anyone had 'my ego' in mind when they designed the Python.

I think people get the idea of a tier system and a role system mixed up.

There are current imbalances in the ship role system, where multirole ships outperform dedicated role ships in many cases because of their number of internal slots and ample power. A balanced system would be one in which a combat role ship, set up for combat, will outperform a multirole ship set up for combat. Unfortunately, that's not the current situation.

There are also imbalances in the weapon role system, where ships have been given disproportionately high maneuverability to accommodate the lack of focus on specific jobs for each weapon/mount type, and a general rebalance of the hardpoint system. This makes any sort of tier-to-tier balancing almost impossible.

It's really a two step process. You balance weapons and give different weapon types a role. Lasers are/remain effective against shields, not so much against hull. Make them less effective against internal subsystems as well. Multicannons should have limited armor penetration but a high hit rate, making them most useful against fast, lightly armored targets. Cannons have a lower hit rate, medium penetration, and high hull damage. Railguns/PAs have very high penetration and moderate hull damage, with very high subsystem damage. Missiles/mines deal high hull damage with moderate penetration, low subsystem damage, but they deal splash damage allowing them to deal damage to subsystems with a near miss.

Further in step one, you maintain the current fixed/gimbal system, while increasing the damage of turrets to match gimbals, but do not allow any targeting of subsystems with turreted weapons. Turrets, however, are changed to track slower based on weapon size, meaning only a small reduction will be seen when using a small turret, but a large reduction will be seen when using a large or huge turret. This means that your weapon type and size both make a difference in what targets you're best suited to engage. A Vulture using dual gimballed multicannons would be very effective against a small fighter, but would have very little chance engaging large targets. A Railgun setup on the same Vulture would be very effective in a limited engagement with larger ships.

Beyond that, you increase ammo counts based on comparative hardpoint/weapon sizes, meaning that a small multicannon turret in a Large hardpoint might have 3x the normal amount of ammunition, making undersizing weapons attractive in prolonged combat, especially when you want to set up to be more effective against smaller targets.

Once that is complete, you can start looking at ship tiers and how different ship sizes should interact. Large ships give you the most options, the ability to build effective all-rounders, and the tools to get you out of a fight that isn't going well. Small ships require more specialization and lack staying power in both shields/hull and ammunition counts. This allows for a general reduction in ship maneuverability based on ship size, combined with an armor increase inversely proportional to that change. This gives larger ships more ability to stay in a fight longer both in survivability and offensive power, but makes them less able to directly counter small ships without either escort craft or specifically equipping a number of small hardpoint turrets.

The next step then becomes easier. Now combat-specific ships can have armor values, maneuverability, or hardpoint availability increased to suit their role, while trading ships have seen a general survivability increase and can be set up with additional cargo bay slots in a balancing pass.

The problem with simply "nerfing the python" is that it doesn't address the core issue which is a lack of clear vision regarding the intended roles for each ship, and some plan towards making sure that the cost of a ship isn't the only factor in determining its use.
 
Probably.

Last time it happened, I don't think they went far enough. Too often during community goals I looked at the traffic through stations and the Python is often overrepresented by about 10 times.

Price is not a useful balancing factor either, but role and position. Price determines some things in size and capabilities, but doesn't mean it should suddenly become magically good or become 'purple gear' like some kind of MMORPG.
 
The problem is that someone at Frontier is absolutely in love with the things, and won't touch them. I've been trying to find the shrine this person has allegedly built for months to destroy it and bring them back to reality but I can only conclude after countless hours of searching that they've either hidden it in the sewers or their mother's basement, both equally formidable territories that I will not be daring.

If we can't get SCB's balanced, it's time to get the ships balanced around SCB's.

I get the feeling that the ships were designed and balanced without much thought to SCB stacking because in actuality they would be very balanced in the absence of SCB's. But yeah I mean if SCB's wont be changed then balancing around them would be the next best thing
 
I understand that the title of the thread is somewhat provocative, but I am mainly querying the Pythons cargo capacity and medium landing pad capabilty.

If you think the Python is overpowered for your way of playing - then don't use it.
Stop trying to force FD to ruin other people's game THAT DOESN'T AFFECT YOU.

The next step then becomes easier. Now combat-specific ships can have armor values, maneuverability, or hardpoint availability increased to suit their role, while trading ships have seen a general survivability increase and can be set up with additional cargo bay slots in a balancing pass.

The problem with simply "nerfing the python" is that it doesn't address the core issue which is a lack of clear vision regarding the intended roles for each ship, and some plan towards making sure that the cost of a ship isn't the only factor in determining its use.

Or simply choose the ship you want and outfit it for the role you intend to play.
What you are suggesting is simply reducing the freedom of choice.

Most of the intended roles are btw explained in the fluff texts.
 
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I think people get the idea of a tier system and a role system mixed up.

There are current imbalances in the ship role system, where multirole ships outperform dedicated role ships in many cases because of their number of internal slots and ample power. A balanced system would be one in which a combat role ship, set up for combat, will outperform a multirole ship set up for combat. Unfortunately, that's not the current situation.

There are also imbalances in the weapon role system, where ships have been given disproportionately high maneuverability to accommodate the lack of focus on specific jobs for each weapon/mount type, and a general rebalance of the hardpoint system. This makes any sort of tier-to-tier balancing almost impossible.

It's really a two step process. You balance weapons and give different weapon types a role. Lasers are/remain effective against shields, not so much against hull. Make them less effective against internal subsystems as well. Multicannons should have limited armor penetration but a high hit rate, making them most useful against fast, lightly armored targets. Cannons have a lower hit rate, medium penetration, and high hull damage. Railguns/PAs have very high penetration and moderate hull damage, with very high subsystem damage. Missiles/mines deal high hull damage with moderate penetration, low subsystem damage, but they deal splash damage allowing them to deal damage to subsystems with a near miss.

Further in step one, you maintain the current fixed/gimbal system, while increasing the damage of turrets to match gimbals, but do not allow any targeting of subsystems with turreted weapons. Turrets, however, are changed to track slower based on weapon size, meaning only a small reduction will be seen when using a small turret, but a large reduction will be seen when using a large or huge turret. This means that your weapon type and size both make a difference in what targets you're best suited to engage. A Vulture using dual gimballed multicannons would be very effective against a small fighter, but would have very little chance engaging large targets. A Railgun setup on the same Vulture would be very effective in a limited engagement with larger ships.

Beyond that, you increase ammo counts based on comparative hardpoint/weapon sizes, meaning that a small multicannon turret in a Large hardpoint might have 3x the normal amount of ammunition, making undersizing weapons attractive in prolonged combat, especially when you want to set up to be more effective against smaller targets.

Once that is complete, you can start looking at ship tiers and how different ship sizes should interact. Large ships give you the most options, the ability to build effective all-rounders, and the tools to get you out of a fight that isn't going well. Small ships require more specialization and lack staying power in both shields/hull and ammunition counts. This allows for a general reduction in ship maneuverability based on ship size, combined with an armor increase inversely proportional to that change. This gives larger ships more ability to stay in a fight longer both in survivability and offensive power, but makes them less able to directly counter small ships without either escort craft or specifically equipping a number of small hardpoint turrets.

The next step then becomes easier. Now combat-specific ships can have armor values, maneuverability, or hardpoint availability increased to suit their role, while trading ships have seen a general survivability increase and can be set up with additional cargo bay slots in a balancing pass.

The problem with simply "nerfing the python" is that it doesn't address the core issue which is a lack of clear vision regarding the intended roles for each ship, and some plan towards making sure that the cost of a ship isn't the only factor in determining its use.

these are excellent suggestions. +1
 
Probably.

Last time it happened, I don't think they went far enough. Too often during community goals I looked at the traffic through stations and the Python is often overrepresented by about 10 times.

Price is not a useful balancing factor either, but role and position. Price determines some things in size and capabilities, but doesn't mean it should suddenly become magically good or become 'purple gear' like some kind of MMORPG.

Price can't balance a ship that pays for itself. It's only a balancing factor if owning the ship is a net negative on the player's total balance. A Python pays for it's own A-fit modules in a couple weeks as soon as you can buy the hull and some cargo modules.

In truth, cost doesn't balance any ship in ED. It's simply an easy gate to put on access to them.
 
I get the feeling that the ships were designed and balanced without much thought to SCB stacking because in actuality they would be very balanced in the absence of SCB's. But yeah I mean if SCB's wont be changed then balancing around them would be the next best thing
They were balanced precisely in this way and then they introduce scb's with no feedback taken and a seeming unwillingness to admit their flaws.
 
I don't think the Python needs a nerf, though I do think the dedicated traders should have some advantage (bigger capacity? Longer jump range than multi-purpose vessels when fully loaded?). They're generally fairly ugly, slow, not very agile, not good in a fight nor easily able to avoid one. And those are all fair enough.. but they should have a clear advantage in capacity, IMO.

Yes, they're balanced on price, but in ED money is cheap.. it's not much of a limitation of the Python/Anaconda.

Then again, we know big traders are coming during Horizons, so that's something..
 
They were balanced precisely in this way and then they introduce scb's with no feedback taken and a seeming unwillingness to admit their flaws.

The biggest flaw being that SCB's are in the wrong slot. Every other defensive boost module - Chaff, ECM, Point Defense Turrets, etc... - goes into a Utility Hardpoint slot. SCB's are inexplicably an internal module.
 
SCB's should ne replaced by shied capcitor banks, that extend shield capacitor.

Then add a shield boost, similar to the speed boost, but for shield recharge. Voilà.
 
the python is good at many things, but not great at anything.
I've outfitted for all roles except piracy, and it doesn't do any of them great.
It's now a trader that can defend itself, the trade-off is its low jump range.
Leave it alone.
 
The biggest flaw being that SCB's are in the wrong slot. Every other defensive boost module - Chaff, ECM, Point Defense Turrets, etc... - goes into a Utility Hardpoint slot. SCB's are inexplicably an internal module.

yes, again i think this would be a better balancing decision too as it would mean choosing between cell banks or boosters
 
I've never understood why a Type 7 needs a large landing pad, if you look at it, it's absolutely no larger than a Python.

That said, as a Python owner, I wouldn't mind a reduction in cargo capacity if it also came with an increase in overall jump range.

I've always thought that the Python's role is that of the next step up from the Asp, but the cargo capacity is too much and the jump range is too low.

I'd be happy with swapping the cargo capacity of the T 7 with the Python and then give the Python a greater jump range (closer to the Asp) to make it a really good "all-rounder" :)
 
SCB's should ne replaced by shied capcitor banks, that extend shield capacitor.

Then add a shield boost, similar to the speed boost, but for shield recharge. Voilà.

do you mean to be used once shields are down? like a quick restore of shields? that would be interesting and probably better than their current use
 
If one ship seems slightly better, and you nerf that ship, then the next ship is slightly better, and so on and so on. The Python, judging what other CMDR's I see flying around, is not significantly overpowered that everyone flies it. Therefore it is not overpowered, therefore doesn't need a nerf.
 
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