Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread - Mk III

[Dogoncrook]

Alright, but doesn't he have the right to respond in whatever way he pleases as well, be it by posting the wall of text or give his opinion on the sentiment posted, or is this privilege restricted in some way?

You seem fine with poking the nest, but when the poker gets counterpoked, it's suddenly not done?

Much like killing someone in game is all well and good, doing so repetitively becomes greifing, at a certain point saying the same thing over and over and over is trolling.

And saying something obnoxious like "all solo players are anti social" is pretty much like saying "if you don't like the modes as they are now you are dense".

And the point is it's a one way street with the poking isn't it? Let's not beat around the bush here, this is nobodies first rodeo when it comes to forums. Guy with agenda pokes the nest, carefully tiptoes around the rules then reports responses. Tries to drown out any conversation by posting thousands of times the same thing. It's not exactly conducive to a discussion. It's a type of behavior that isn't tolerated in person, but it's the internet. Now normally this would be off topic or moderated, but here since its apparently deemed a trash thread, anything goes. So a cabal of posters has hidden out here being disruptive and carefully tiptoeing the line, something they carefully avoid in other threads, if they even bother to venture out of this one. It is what it is. My opinion is, if it's not going to be moderated for trolling it should be shutdown. The entire thread is bait, and people will use it as such. It's silly.

 

[Dogoncrook]

I keep running across general comments about solo being 'left out'...I'll try to link back if I see them again.

I've seen it coming up in regards to the expansion and speculation over what kind of impact multi role assaults will have and what that means.

 

[fademist]

I keep running across general comments about solo being 'left out'...I'll try to link back if I see them again.

hope isnt just from ppl and have some link for that from the devs

 

[Josefius]

at a certain point saying the same thing over and over and over is trolling.

I could call that spamming.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Much like killing someone in game is all well and good, doing so repetitively becomes greifing, at a certain point saying the same thing over and over and over is trolling.

And saying something obnoxious like "all solo players are anti social" is pretty much like saying "if you don't like the modes as they are now you are dense".

Yeah, but that's a strawman. That's not his position see.

And the point is it's a one way street with the poking isn't it? Let's not beat around the bush here, this is nobodies first rodeo when it comes to forums. Guy with agenda pokes the nest, carefully tiptoes around the rules then reports responses. Tries to drown out any conversation by posting thousands of times the same thing. It's not exactly conducive to a discussion. It's a type of behavior that isn't tolerated in person, but it's the internet. Now normally this would be off topic or moderated, but here since its apparently deemed a trash thread, anything goes. So a cabal of posters has hidden out here being disruptive and carefully tiptoeing the line, something they carefully avoid in other threads, if they even bother to venture out of this one. It is what it is. My opinion is, if it's not going to be moderated for trolling it should be shutdown. The entire thread is bait, and people will use it as such. It's silly.

I think you got the chronology wrong. First guy, 3 threads ago crashes the discussion: these modes are stupid and have to go! Players in solo are cheaters/cowards/etc. The first guy is addressed. Then another barges in, and another, repeat ad nauseum. There comes a certain point where you should understand that people will prefab an answer to those kind of people. The kind of people who barge in demanding solo to be gotten rid of, or nerfed are not looking for a discussion. Believe me that I tried to reason with them, but in doing so I am a carebear/white knight/fanboy. So I am actually rather grateful for the ready made answer, so I won't waste time and effort trying to communicate with these people only to be told I am a lackey to FD.

But, if you look past those people, there is genuine discussion going on. And I have not seen Jockey swamp actual discussion with these ready made answers. In fact he's put a lot of effort debating the issue. Which is why I'm standing up for him. But, since this is a message board and the proof is in the pudding, why not click on the nr of replies in the replies column on the main page. You'll find Jockey at the top of the contributers. And check out his contributions in this thread. If after that you still feel he's merely posting the same thing over and over again, then I'm all out of options on where to go from there and we might as well call it a day

 

[Roybe]

I've seen it coming up in regards to the expansion and speculation over what kind of impact multi role assaults will have and what that means.

It's been brought up over Wings, PowerPlay, etc. not sure why it pinged my radar currently...but...it did...and does make some sense. If you purchased the game to have an equal solo experience...you aren't really getting it. All you are being asked to do in Solo is to keep overcoming harder and harder content...or avoid those parts of the game....or get in player groups of some sort to play those portions.

 

[Bomba Luigi]

My test of open continues, still trying to find that so much bigger Danger everybody is talking about. Spend one week at the CG, got once shot at by PC, got shot more by NPC (around 8-10 Times or so). Just sayin.

 

[DarkWalker]

Here's one, I'd prefer they drop solo to push the anti social elements out of the community. Discuss.

So, let's see, they can't drop Solo because:

- It would render null the game's current PEGI-7 rating, landing Frontier in trouble with the law on multiple fronts, including for having sold to children a product that is not appropriate for them.
- It would remove a feature widely advertised. Sony is still fighting off a class action lawsuit over having dropped the Linux functionality from the PS3, a secondary feature used by a tiny part of the user base at best; the modes, and mode changing, are a far more central and widely advertised feature in the context of ED.
- It is necessary for fulfilling other promises, such as being able to play with minimal bandwidth on a very bad connection, a situation where Open or Group modes simply aren't feasible.

And they shouldn't drop Solo because:

- Many players prefer Solo.
- Many of the players that prefer other modes nevertheless enjoy being able to change to Solo whenever they want.
- Besides the legal angle, there is a trust issue involved in dropping features. No dev wants to be known for dropping features after launch.
- Most games that make radical changes after launch, removing or changing features the current player base got to enjoy, fare badly afterwards.
- Most MMO players tend to be soloers; this is not a new thing, BTW.
- Given the network architecture Frontier has chosen, dropping Solo would be innocuous anyway, as players can block others (even selectively so) and turn Open into a fake Solo or Group mode.
- Being forced to engage with players that fall into Bartle's Killer archetype tends to make players of every other archetype leave the game, as research into virtual worlds and its players has shown over a decade ago. Solo allows the players that would leave the game over that a way to still stay in the game.

Among other things. I'm sure I've forgotten a few.

 

[Bomba Luigi]

Among other things. I'm sure I've forgotten a few.

I know one: It turns Elite into a game that needs a monthly sub on Xbox.

 

[Roybe]

I know one: It turns Elite into a game that needs a monthly sub on Xbox.

Ding!
+1 for you!

 

[DarkWalker]

KS is not "just an advertisement" - it is a promise to a potential group of investors about the product you are going to deliver to them if they invest in your product.

I've said before and I'll say again - Frontier can go back on their KS promises all they like and there is nothing anyone can do about it,

A somewhat old response, but the above is not completely true. There were successful lawsuits against Kickstarts in the past, at least one resulting in the personal bankruptcy of the person behind the kickstart; certain elements of a Kickstart were, in lawsuits both in the UK and the US, granted the same legal status as actual sales, with the same legal protections. Also, given that ED has already launched, arbitrary changes to the game might run afoul of consumer protection laws — plus child protection laws, if they cause a change to the game's rating, as for example removing Solo would cause.

Frontier itself backed down and settled out of court with everyone that threatened a lawsuit over the removal of offline. Threatened as in, actually got to the point of filling a letter before action, which is the last legal step before filling a lawsuit in the UK. Could be that Frontier simply didn't want the bad PR from fighting their own customers in court, but I suspect the prospect of losing in court and setting a precedent had as much to do with it as any potential bad PR.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

- Besides the legal angle, there is a trust issue involved in dropping features. No dev wants to be known for dropping features after launch.

Or dropping features before launch! Remember offlinegate? People still bring that up! I think some people will be bringing it up 10 years from now.

Oh...damn... i just brought up offlinegate >.<

 

[Phosphora]

We can debate whatever we feel like. If you don't feel like contributing don't.

Here's one, I'd prefer they drop solo to push the anti social elements out of the community. Discuss.

I want Frontier to keep solo. People who don't enjoy interaction can play the game in the way they like.

Cheers, Phos.

 

[Buck]

Its a long an winding road this thread. Far too much to read back.
I liked ideas about a buffing of rank progression etc for Open mode play, but I cannot see why the two instances need coexist. Why not embrace the separate rank branches? Is it the belief that any negative effects of switching between modes will be balanced by positive effects. I can see this logic, though often negative exploitation is more motivational than positive.
As an open player I'd like to see more players, but the game doesn't seem to be designed to implement that even if Solo mode was 'dropped'. Better to increase incentives to attract new open players and develop that population. The 'buffing' should not be applied to any powerplay variables.

 

[Mouse]

Its a long an winding road this thread. Far too much to read back.
I liked ideas about a buffing of rank progression etc for Open mode play, but I cannot see why the two instances need coexist. Why not embrace the separate rank branches? Is it the belief that any negative effects of switching between modes will be balanced by positive effects. I can see this logic, though often negative exploitation is more motivational than positive.
As an open player I'd like to see more players, but the game doesn't seem to be designed to implement that even if Solo mode was 'dropped'. Better to increase incentives to attract new open players and develop that population. The 'buffing' should not be applied to any powerplay variables.

And see Dogoncrook, this is an example of why Jockey, Robert, myself and others repeat ourselves. People post the same things that have been posted again and again.

Some claim Open is so risky and they need rewards, others it is so empty so needs incentives.. so which is it?

They want Open only even though it's been said again and again that there is one BGS and all modes share it.

They want PP to be open only because they have decided that PP mechanics are PVP even though they are clearly not.

Some want mode switching to be removed because people can earn money in other modes then bring their ships into open, and funny enough someone the loudests for this... admitted to doing the exact same thing they are against.

It all comes down to some feel that because they play Open that their gameplay is more important than everyone else's and it is unfair to them that others can affect the BGS and they can't shoot at them. Which is the crux of the entire Open argument.. soft targets.. either the poster wants to be able to shoot at them or wants it so others to be able to so they can affect things.

 

[Dogoncrook]

Yeah, but that's a strawman. That's not his position see.


I think you got the chronology wrong. First guy, 3 threads ago crashes the discussion: these modes are stupid and have to go! Players in solo are cheaters/cowards/etc. The first guy is addressed. Then another barges in, and another, repeat ad nauseum. There comes a certain point where you should understand that people will prefab an answer to those kind of people. The kind of people who barge in demanding solo to be gotten rid of, or nerfed are not looking for a discussion. Believe me that I tried to reason with them, but in doing so I am a carebear/white knight/fanboy. So I am actually rather grateful for the ready made answer, so I won't waste time and effort trying to communicate with these people only to be told I am a lackey to FD.

But, if you look past those people, there is genuine discussion going on. And I have not seen Jockey swamp actual discussion with these ready made answers. In fact he's put a lot of effort debating the issue. Which is why I'm standing up for him. But, since this is a message board and the proof is in the pudding, why not click on the nr of replies in the replies column on the main page. You'll find Jockey at the top of the contributers. And check out his contributions in this thread. If after that you still feel he's merely posting the same thing over and over again, then I'm all out of options on where to go from there and we might as well call it a day

I've seen him countless times say if you don't agree with his position it's because you are stupid in one way or another. I mean bravo for posting a lot I guess.

As for people jumping in here and throwing off the discussion, that's basically what kelder was saying, and many posters confirmed, we can't get a word in edgewise because it somehow throws off some imaginary balance of power, and everyone must always be on guard lest someone have the temerity to desire this game was different than it currently is. When those garbage posters leave everyone sits around and snipes anyone dumb enough to think an actual discussion could be had here. And maybe none of its against the rules, but it's behavior I'd say most decent people take issue with. Matter a fact ask anyone outside of this forum their perception of it, the responses are quite colorful, it's all pretty self evident what's going on here. It's pretty typical forum warrior behavior.

 

[Dogoncrook]

And see Dogoncrook, this is an example of why Jockey, Robert, myself and others repeat ourselves. People post the same things that have been posted again and again.

Some claim Open is so risky and they need rewards, others it is so empty so needs incentives.. so which is it?

They want Open only even though it's been said again and again that there is one BGS and all modes share it.

They want PP to be open only because they have decided that PP mechanics are PVP even though they are clearly not.

Some want mode switching to be removed because people can earn money in other modes then bring their ships into open, and funny enough someone the loudests for this... admitted to doing the exact same thing they are against.

It all comes down to some feel that because they play Open that their gameplay is more important than everyone else's and it is unfair to them that others can affect the BGS and they can't shoot at them. Which is the crux of the entire Open argument.. soft targets.. either the poster wants to be able to shoot at them or wants it so others to be able to so they can affect things.

You act like different people posting different things makes the issue a hypocritical or a logical fallacy. It isn't they are simply different people who want different things.

And you can want something they have said they won't give, and there shouldn't be an issue expressing that.

And then you go and generalise the debate in an entirely ridiculous way even though people like myself have explained why there are benifits. Which I'll remind you, you asked for, and then proceeded to flat out say you were going to ignore based on the petty argument that the post wasn't directly addressed to you. Your not defending anything, your twisting people's words, shoving words in people's mouths and declaring yourselves the winners because they are hypocritical. It's stunning really. And then to say it's all so we can have soft targets like you can read their minds. I mean I've told you quite clearly I can see the advantages and I don't even PvP in open.

Its not what you say it's that the methods are dishonest.

 

[Jockey79]

Much like killing someone in game is all well and good, doing so repetitively becomes greifing, at a certain point saying the same thing over and over and over is trolling.

I could call that spamming.

It's only spamming / trolling if you are posting the same thing over and over and over at the same person, repeatedly.

You may want to use the links in my Sig, you can filter all three megathreads - I quote the person I post the "Wall of Information" to or respond to a comment about it.
I do not keep posting it at the same person over and over - a person may still be in the thread when I post it to someone new, but it is not aimed at the first person,
it is there to educate people who didn't read up on the idea, design and direction of the game and when they stumble upon this thread, I post it to help them understand.
They don't have to read it or like, the choice is theirs, I merely provide it and keep it updated as best I can.

I also try to keep it 2 or 3 pages apart (under the default forum layout) but others also quote it was well (of which I cannot control who uses it or how often).
It is also in my Sig - not that many ever use the link (I only know of one time someone used that link).

I was being sarcastic and a bit hyperbolic. Really the point is we can discuss what we want whether he likes it or not. Poking the nest, cause why not? Apparently there is no need to stay on topic or have a civil conversation here, this thread is apparently immune.

Oh so you were trolling for the sake of trolling and trying to upset people - while making a complaint about what you consider trolling? Okay then.
By the way, you do not need my permission to post what you want (so you can drop the passive aggressive "he likes it or not") - but remember, I don't need yours to respond either.
You also seem to be taking this way to personally in my opinion, but that is down to you. I'd suggest some fresh air and putting your assumptions away over why I post.

If you are going to take everything so personally, I suggest you make use of the ignore button (it is what it is there for) and block those who you do not like.

And see Dogoncrook, this is an example of why Jockey, Robert, myself and others repeat ourselves. People post the same things that have been posted again and again.

Exactly, some people are willfully ignorant and refuse to do even the basic reading before parting with money. Then blame everyone else for their mistake.

For example, Post 1, Page 1 of this very thread has most of the "Wall of Information" in it, as well as a thank you note to.... oh, me ! (aww shucks, you Mods do embarrass me).
But for some odd reason, most people past page 10 have no idea it is there!?
In fact, half the mergers done, were done while this thread was on the front page!!
And still people don't know the "Wall of Information" is in post 1, page 1.

I do like it when people cannot counter the "Wall of Information" so they decided to pick fault with me though.
That's okay, I know I have my faults. Choosing to waste money and then complaining about it afterwards however - isn't one of them

Also, thanks to those defending me while I was in game. That is nice of you to point out my reasons and posting styles - but clearly some people are just here to be insulting and nothing more.
So please do not engage them on my behalf. If you see a post you do not like, use the "Report" button and let the mods decide if someone (including me) needs a quiet word or a time out.
Thanks though, it is appreciated

 

[Dogoncrook]

It's only spamming / trolling if you are posting the same thing over and over and over at the same person, repeatedly.

You may want to use the links in my Sig, you can filter all three megathreads - I quote the person I post the "Wall of Information" to or respond to a comment about it.
I do not keep posting it at the same person over and over - a person may still be in the thread when I post it to someone new, but it is not aimed at the first person,
it is there to educate people who didn't read up on the idea, design and direction of the game and when they stumble upon this thread, I post it to help them understand.
They don't have to read it or like, the choice is theirs, I merely provide it and keep it updated as best I can.

I also try to keep it 2 or 3 pages apart (under the default forum layout) but others also quote it was well (of which I cannot control who uses it or how often).
It is also in my Sig - not that many ever use the link (I only know of one time someone used that link).




Oh so you were trolling for the sake of trolling and trying to upset people - while making a complaint about what you consider trolling? Okay then.
By the way, you do not need my permission to post what you want (so you can drop the passive aggressive "he likes it or not") - but remember, I don't need yours to respond either.
You also seem to be taking this way to personally in my opinion, but that is down to you. I'd suggest some fresh air and putting your assumptions away over why I post.

If you are going to take everything so personally, I suggest you make use of the ignore button (it is what it is there for) and block those who you do not like.



Exactly, some people are willfully ignorant and refuse to do even the basic reading before parting with money. Then blame everyone else for their mistake.

For example, Post 1, Page 1 of this very thread has most of the "Wall of Information" in it, as well as a thank you note to.... oh, me ! (aww shucks, you Mods do embarrass me).
But for some odd reason, most people past page 10 have no idea it is there!?
In fact, half the mergers done, were done while this thread was on the front page!!
And still people don't know the "Wall of Information" is in post 1, page 1.

I do like it when people cannot counter the "Wall of Information" so they decided to pick fault with me though.
That's okay, I know I have my faults. Choosing to waste money and then complaining about it afterwards however - isn't one of them

Also, thanks to those defending me while I was in game. That is nice of you to point out my reasons and posting styles - but clearly some people are just here to be insulting and nothing more.
So please do not engage them on my behalf. If you see a post you do not like, use the "Report" button and let the mods decide if someone (including me) needs a quiet word or a time out.
Thanks though, it is appreciated

I'm not taking it personally I'm explaining my position. I'm not the one who litterally made up whole clothe that I was name calling and insulting a mod. I'm simply pointing out how ridiculous you are behaving.

 

[Jockey79]

I've seen him countless times say if you don't agree with his position it's because you are stupid in one way or another.

Prove it - I want the exact quotes where I've told someone directly they are stupid.
Also, why have you not used the "Report" feature if that is the case?

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