Why the shields STILL don't recharge when docked?!

[Rashhaverak]

Nice post jacozilla, and I agree with it.

I also think the recharge time on shields is a very important balancing element in the game from the perspective that money can't get around it. Two players with a billion credits each can build two very different ships, but in the end if player 1 has a bigger shield, then player 2 is going to take off first. No amount of credits will change that, and I like that fact.

If player 1 encounters player 2 and they fight, the outcome of loosing shields is different for each and I like that too. If both could equally recharge at a base, then the only reason not to take the biggest, baddest shield would be cost, (or cargo space) and that would, in my opinion, diminish the game, not enhance it.

 

[jacozilla]

Nice post jacozilla, and I agree with it.

I also think the recharge time on shields is a very important balancing element in the game from the perspective that money can't get around it. Two players with a billion credits each can build two very different ships, but in the end if player 1 has a bigger shield, then player 2 is going to take off first. No amount of credits will change that, and I like that fact.

If player 1 encounters player 2 and they fight, the outcome of loosing shields is different for each and I like that too. If both could equally recharge at a base, then the only reason not to take the biggest, baddest shield would be cost, (or cargo space) and that would, in my opinion, diminish the game, not enhance it.

agreed. And this is where it gets interesting to see what will happen with 1.5

as it is, 1.4 made armor more effective and there's already some threads around hull tanking so wont repeat that here.

what I will say in context of this thread, is that while big shields + scb is the current king of hill meta, 1.5 is going to bring us bigger than anaconda ships. As it is, shooting up a fed gunship once shield down is already noticeably different - once we have larger than anaconda ship with milgrade armor plus max hull stacking, it will be interesting to see if that might not be at least as viable as shield tanking today.

 

[tawittle]

The reason why shields don't recharge when docked is for the sake of balance.

Currently, although most pvp will occur outside of supercruise in the middle of nowhere, there is also a fair amount that occurs outside stations.

Some players may be confused by this because they think you can't fight outside of stations. Actually, if you fire in the no-fire zone, it is only a fine (unless you are already wanted) so you can engage wanted targets near or inside the station, as long as you don't actually hit the station (you need to be very careful not to hit the station, obviously).

If your shields recharged to full when docking, sure, it would be convenient for some, but it would also be annoying for others because people would just hang around stations and losing their shields wouldn't be nearly as scary because they just fly into the slot and recharge their shields and repair back to full instantly.

Another reason, not related to pvp, is that its just way too OP to have an anaconda be able to instantly recharge their shields. Conda shields are stupid strong, but they also take an eternity to recharge, which seems like a fair balance. It would be dumb if you can lose all 1800 MJ of shield charge on your conda and just instantly recharge it all by docking.

A third reason, and the best reason, is that we already have SCB to recharge your shields. if your shields go down, for power management issues or otherwise, that is user error and should have a penalty.

So I disagree with OP's point that "there are no gameplay mechanics here, other than to annoy players".

 

[Slippery Jim DiGriz]

The reason why shields don't recharge when docked is for the sake of balance.

I can see all of that and don't have a huge problem with that, recharging could be a bit faster when docked (but not instant) due to the spare power available as your engines will not be drawing any power.
It does not excuse the shields not regenerating when one is not running the game for several hours and you come back the next day to find the shields exactly as you left them, there's no logical gameplay mechanic there.

 

[ShimEnki]

As the title says! WHAT THE HELL!?

Tell me, oh wise men of Frontier, why would you want a player to just wait and do nothing while their shields recharge?

Same reason they want you to engage the rinse and repeat cycle of supercruise...exit and docking just to collect CRs you earned while expunging annoying pirates on your treks thru "space"
In the year 3000..theres no technology yet to transfer those funds apparently.

You can dematerialize and rematerialize after ship destruction yet you cannot engage that same process to collect a far away ship or even choose to enter a zone from a starport. Instead its the same ole rinse and repeat undocking ...cruise exit and docking process...sigh

Its the year 3000...you should be able to choose say...High res zone..pay the starport a dematerialization and rematerialization fee to arrive there...just as we have trained our nonphysical-physical system thru so many ship destructions. How else do you think we appeared at the last dock? We swam? A pirate helped trek us there?

Imagine upon selecting the undocking process the starport voice asks, would you like to instantly arrive at your location commander, and support this station? Its a small fee of $2,500CR to instantly materialize you and your trusty ship to where you wish to go.. Let us help you CMDR...

Sure, make this option only available to those past a certain rank...you still have to learn to rematerialize thru the lessons of hard knocks ....ship death.

 

[Ydiss]

The reason why shields don't recharge when docked is for the sake of balance.

Currently, although most pvp will occur outside of supercruise in the middle of nowhere, there is also a fair amount that occurs outside stations.

Some players may be confused by this because they think you can't fight outside of stations. Actually, if you fire in the no-fire zone, it is only a fine (unless you are already wanted) so you can engage wanted targets near or inside the station, as long as you don't actually hit the station (you need to be very careful not to hit the station, obviously).

If your shields recharged to full when docking, sure, it would be convenient for some, but it would also be annoying for others because people would just hang around stations and losing their shields wouldn't be nearly as scary because they just fly into the slot and recharge their shields and repair back to full instantly.

Another reason, not related to pvp, is that its just way too OP to have an anaconda be able to instantly recharge their shields. Conda shields are stupid strong, but they also take an eternity to recharge, which seems like a fair balance. It would be dumb if you can lose all 1800 MJ of shield charge on your conda and just instantly recharge it all by docking.

A third reason, and the best reason, is that we already have SCB to recharge your shields. if your shields go down, for power management issues or otherwise, that is user error and should have a penalty.

So I disagree with OP's point that "there are no gameplay mechanics here, other than to annoy players".

The pve side of what you said isn't really relevant; as soon as you begin your trip to the station you're no longer taking part in pve combat. So balance is no longer necessary.

For pvp? Hugely debatable to claim FD made it this way to balance station pvp. Firstly, the only reason this is even in the game was due to the change to prevent super cruise abuse. It wasn't stated by the devs, at any time, that the change to super cruise instant recharge was done to prevent station abuse. And that's obviously because no one ever needed to dock to recharge shields. Because it never happened anyway but mainly because it was always quicker to jump to super cruise. So, secondly, your statement is an assumption and isn't based on fact.

However, if we assume that you're correct that allowing instant, or fast regeneration of shields whilst docked would lead to players abusing stations to pvp near them (I'm not saying you're incorrect but I do think you're reaching a bit, given it would take a good length of time to re-enter the no fire zone, dock, launch and then return to the battle... More time than the super cruise trick... But more so because you can already instantly fix 99% hull damage and rearm all weapons by docking... Including the re-arming of all SCBs, to instantly recharge your shields... The abuse of which I've never seen nor read about here... As I said, reaching) then that is another matter that can (and should) be dealt with separately.

If using stations to imbalance PVP fights might be a thing just because shields can be regenerated quickly, it would be a thing now; it's a common issue in PVP open-world games (safe haven abuse). So to fix this problem you describe, FD can either prevent docking for a certain period of time if you've engaged in combat near a station (as the aggressor only, not as the defending party), to eliminate entirely the option to dock to evade PVP, and/or prevent the use of the shield regeneration service (or any service) under the same conditions. I'm not sure this change is necessary but if it were introduced then I'd think it would make a lot of sense... Buuut I don't see the outcry for it, despite the fact that players can do it now and gain a significant benefit.

But I don't really believe your assertion to be accurate and I think it's more your opinion (one I definitely find difficult to wholeheartedly agree with but still feel can be resolved easily enough if it is actually a problem). And, at the very least, it has no bearing on fixing the issue of having shields needing up to 20 minutes to recharge when outfitting your ship. Which isn't related to balance and is just bonkers annoying for a lot of players.

 

[tawittle]

I can see all of that and don't have a huge problem with that, recharging could be a bit faster when docked (but not instant) due to the spare power available as your engines will not be drawing any power.
It does not excuse the shields not regenerating when one is not running the game for several hours and you come back the next day to find the shields exactly as you left them, there's no logical gameplay mechanic there.

The logic behind that is that you have to make sure your powerplant is not overloaded, and that you have at least 1 pip in systems, for your shields to recharge. If your ship is wired correctly, its impossible to overload your powerplant, so there should be a penalty for not understanding how to do that.

 

[jacozilla]

The logic behind that is that you have to make sure your powerplant is not overloaded, and that you have at least 1 pip in systems, for your shields to recharge. If your ship is wired correctly, its impossible to overload your powerplant, so there should be a penalty for not understanding how to do that.

I am not calling for nor advocating shields recharge faster, my post #138 above covers entirety of my position, and why. My question here is solely re: your logic.

If powerplant not being overloaded is a factor, as well as 1 pip in sys, for shields to recharge in station:
1. Why can shields recharge in space with 0 pips to sys, long as enough capacitor juice exists to support scb firing off?

2. I presume answer to above is that scb is a stored fuel cell or energy xfer of some sort - it doesnt use powerplant, etc

3. If above is so,why can the enormous magic tech juice of an SCB recharge shields in seconds, yet the same magic tech juice SCBs presumably built into stations not recharge shields instantly or in seconds like ship SCBs ?

4. Only answer that makes logical sense is because stations dont use magic tech juice SCBs.

5. If so - why the heck not if relatively small ship SCBs can do in seconds what it takes in station, minutes?

6. If ship wiring is an issue in any way for any aspect of recharge rate limit, then why do SCBs restore shields near instantly at all? Do SCBs not use ship wiring to xfer that energy? And if so, then why is other forms of shield recharging need to or rely on ship wiring?

To repeat, I am not advocating anything from status quo - just seems the only logic that makes sense is one I entirely concede makes snese in my #138 - basically, just because something - anything - is needed to add time for game balance. Other realism, inherent rate limits, logic because xyz, etc all see to have major holes.

 

[Slippery Jim DiGriz]

The logic behind that is that you have to make sure your powerplant is not overloaded, and that you have at least 1 pip in systems, for your shields to recharge. If your ship is wired correctly, its impossible to overload your powerplant, so there should be a penalty for not understanding how to do that.

Non sequiter.

I'm saying if you have depleted shields, park up in a station and close the game, when you return many hours later and start up the game again the shields have not regenerated, that has nothing to do with how the pips are set.

 

[jacozilla]

Non sequiter.

I'm saying if you have depleted shields, park up in a station and close the game, when you return many hours later and start up the game again the shields have not regenerated, that has nothing to do with how the pips are set.

not defending the decision, but believe the persistent shield state across logins was to deter / stop loggers with shield dmg from simply logging off then returning with full shields

why the time delay until shield recharge wasnt set to an hour, day, whatever makes sense instead of forvever (or whatever cap is on stored persistent state of logout), I dont know - again, not defending the decision.

 

[tawittle]

To repeat, I am not advocating anything from status quo - just seems the only logic that makes sense is one I entirely concede makes snese in my #138 - basically, just because something - anything - is needed to add time for game balance. Other realism, inherent rate limits, logic because xyz, etc all see to have major holes.

You misunderstood me because I was talking about passive shield recharge, not recharge from SCB. Also when I'm talking about "powerplant wiring" I'm talking about the power plant priorities you can set in your modules tab. It has nothing to do with any lore or technology or anything or that sort.

The pve side of what you said isn't really relevant; as soon as you begin your trip to the station you're no longer taking part in pve combat. So balance is no longer necessary.

For pvp? Hugely debatable to claim FD made it this way to balance station pvp.

Firstly, I think you're underestimating station pvp. I have killed many players outside stations. True, its less common than SC interdictions, but it happens often.

It's not just fighting around stations though. It also makes a huge difference in large wing v wing encounters because frequently players will have to jump out, rearm/repair, and then jump back into the fight. If your shields can be recharged instantly by docking, then wing pvp is much different. Right now, if you take someone's shields offline and force them to high wake out, you know they are going to have to wait for their shields to come back online. So at the very least they'll be out of the fight for 2-3 minutes.

In other words: your ability to get back into a group fight is limited by how long it takes your shields to recharge from an offline state.

If you could recharge your shields instantly by docking I know that people will abuse it. If I was a pirate and had some pirate buddies, I'd have 1 wing with an anchor in a nearby station, and then 1 wing in SC interdicting people. If your shields go down, you just high/low wake out and lock to your wingmate at the station, recharge your 1800 MJ anaconda shields back to full instantly, and then lock back onto your other wingmates. If people are switching wings it will add a short cooldown, but nothing compared to how much time you save by recharging your shields instantly.

Anyone who thinks that this strategy would not give you a marked advantage in wing v wing combat is mistaken. In an 8v8 between pilots of comparable skill, if 1 side takes 5 minutes to get back into the fight after waking out, and the other side only takes 2.5 minutes to get back into the fight after waking out, which side do you think is going to win? The side that gets back into the fight faster wins because they will have a numerical advantage on the battlefield. It's that simple.

The point I'm trying to make is that if you let stations recharge your shields instantly, then there is no longer a penalty for having very strong shields, so in essence that change is a buff for ships with strong base shield. For the anaconda in particular it would be a MASSIVE buff.

I'm saying if you have depleted shields, park up in a station and close the game, when you return many hours later and start up the game again the shields have not regenerated, that has nothing to do with how the pips are set.

This feature could be abused because of instead of having to wait in a potentially dangerous conflict zone/RES to recharge my shields I can just log out, alt tab for a couple minutes, and then hop back into the game with full shields.

 

[shadragon]

That's how it works. Not being able to multi-task is not the games fault.

 

[Slippery Jim DiGriz]

This feature could be abused because of instead of having to wait in a potentially dangerous conflict zone/RES to recharge my shields I can just log out, alt tab for a couple minutes, and then hop back into the game with full shields.

The game knows the time at which you last logged out and the current time so an hour delay would be trivial to arrange.

Anyway once you've got any shields up you can take off, fire off a bunch of SCBs, do a U-turn, re-dock and re-load and leave again a lot quicker than it takes for big ship to fully regenerate its shields.

 

[Psycho Romeo]

PvPers like yourself tend to forget that this isn't all there is to the game, and push quite heavily for PvP changes with little to no regard for other play-styles. Additionally, you seem to like rogue-likes as a genre - nothing bad there, but you seem to also think rogue-like elements are good design when put in other game genres.

I'm not considering the applied differences between PvP or PvE at all, I don't think anyone here should. I'm looking at the game, the mechanics currently in place, and projections moving forward.

What I want to see not disappear from the game is consequence. ED has a heavy dose of consequence, which is rather uncommon for games today. I'd hate for this to disappear because of the people who have misguided expectations and can't losing from time to time. Compromise, adapt, or deal with it. If a player can't do these, they have no business playing ED, and might want to stick to CQC. Don't try leverage my enjoyment for other genres (or the fact that I enjoy a good rumble with another player) in an attempt to dismiss my point. I'm not your high school English teacher and I wasn't born yesterday, so these kind of childish (immature) gambits won't fly.

Again, not what was advertised on launch, not what was even promised before launch. Even now the game promotional texts don't focus on PvP exclusively and explicitly mention solo mode (among other non-PvP things). Heck, even Open isn't all about PvP.

I was here at launch. What I remember being advertised was creating my own path in a cutthroat galaxy. I knew that other players would be a part of that galaxy, and I would have cutthroat interactions with them. I also new that if I ever wanted to not play with players, I could go to solo. Why you're bringing this up is beyond me, though I wouldn't mind seeing this silly thread thrown into the trashcan that is the open/solo thread. So please, do go on.

And therein lies the issue. I'd be really fine if there was a meaningful downside. "It's meant to be annoying", especially in reference to wasting time, isn't a meaningful downside. If one has more fun watching a video on YT / reading a book / etc while playing a game because the game is intentionally throwing time wasting obstacles, and you seriously think that's fine, then we're not ever going to get along, nor find common ground.

You know what else takes an annoying amount of time? Exploration. You know what else takes an annoying amount of time? A-B trading. You know what else takes an annoying amount of time? Mining. This is all fine, and this is how games work.

Besides, like other posters have said, nothing is forcing you to spend 10 minutes in station recharging instead of 5 minutes. Nothing forces you to go toe to toe with anacondas when you bring only a 300Mj shield instead of a 600Mj one. The choice is yours, yet you say "well I don't like any of the choices so I just want the good parts from all of them". I don't get it.

I'm sure one could find other downsides to having large shields. Like... the fact they cost a lot, increase ones insurance, use more energy, require bigger SCBs to get up to full. And I'm perfectly fine with such downsides, because these tie in nicely with the game. I need to manage energy better in order to use said large shields (or larger SCBs, if I want them) - it's a fun problem to be solved. I need to get enough credits to buy and maintain the ship, seeking luxurious opportunities to make money. It's a far less interesting "downside" to just "wait for it".

So then that anaconda of yours, it takes three times as long to dock than in a viper. Should we make anacondas fly at 400m/s when out of combat because at that point in time at a station "it doesn't matter"? Or should that viper just be more convenient than an anaconda because that's part of the price you pay for a larger, more powerful ship?

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

It would be dumb if you can lose all 1800 MJ of shield charge on your conda and just instantly recharge it all by docking.

Current recharge time by itself is in excess of 10 minutes.

• Undock
• Pop shield cells until fully charged
• Exit slot and request docking
• Redock
• Restock shield cells
• Total time : under 3 minutes

It's not consistent.

• Instant recharge - no
• FAST​ recharge - yes

 

[Anezay]

I wouldn't mind if they just let me pop a SCB or two and restock while docked.

 

[Ydiss]

You misunderstood me because I was talking about passive shield recharge, not recharge from SCB. Also when I'm talking about "powerplant wiring" I'm talking about the power plant priorities you can set in your modules tab. It has nothing to do with any lore or technology or anything or that sort.




Firstly, I think you're underestimating station pvp. I have killed many players outside stations. True, its less common than SC interdictions, but it happens often.

It's not just fighting around stations though. It also makes a huge difference in large wing v wing encounters because frequently players will have to jump out, rearm/repair, and then jump back into the fight. If your shields can be recharged instantly by docking, then wing pvp is much different. Right now, if you take someone's shields offline and force them to high wake out, you know they are going to have to wait for their shields to come back online. So at the very least they'll be out of the fight for 2-3 minutes.

In other words: your ability to get back into a group fight is limited by how long it takes your shields to recharge from an offline state.

If you could recharge your shields instantly by docking I know that people will abuse it. If I was a pirate and had some pirate buddies, I'd have 1 wing with an anchor in a nearby station, and then 1 wing in SC interdicting people. If your shields go down, you just high/low wake out and lock to your wingmate at the station, recharge your 1800 MJ anaconda shields back to full instantly, and then lock back onto your other wingmates. If people are switching wings it will add a short cooldown, but nothing compared to how much time you save by recharging your shields instantly.

Anyone who thinks that this strategy would not give you a marked advantage in wing v wing combat is mistaken. In an 8v8 between pilots of comparable skill, if 1 side takes 5 minutes to get back into the fight after waking out, and the other side only takes 2.5 minutes to get back into the fight after waking out, which side do you think is going to win? The side that gets back into the fight faster wins because they will have a numerical advantage on the battlefield. It's that simple.

The point I'm trying to make is that if you let stations recharge your shields instantly, then there is no longer a penalty for having very strong shields, so in essence that change is a buff for ships with strong base shield. For the anaconda in particular it would be a MASSIVE buff.


This feature could be abused because of instead of having to wait in a potentially dangerous conflict zone/RES to recharge my shields I can just log out, alt tab for a couple minutes, and then hop back into the game with full shields.

As I said in my post, if this is genuinely a concern then it's possible to abuse now by docking, buying scbs and using them. In fact, one could lose all but 1% of shields on an anaconda, dock, launch recharge and then dock again to buy more scbs, all in a fraction of the time it would take to wait for the shields to regenerate naturally.

Is this happening?

I think you over state the probability of abuse. But if you are right, again as I said in my post, it needs to be addressed separately to this.

Needing to wait 20 minutes to do anything isn't good game play. And the vast majority of players this negatively impacts have no desire to use it to zerg. They just want to launch and play the game. Often not even to go fight. And often enough, they didn't even lose shields through combat, but just by switching modules.

I don't actually think FD have truly had the chance to revisit shields recharge times since shield boosters were introduced and certainly not since the super cruise fix.

But I think it's fine that you're, in all practical cases, forced to dock when your shields go down in a ship with huge shields. I think that's a fair trade off. But that's more than enough of a penalty for a huge portion of the player base. Just like running out of fuel, ammo or taking damage works.

Your example is a fringe case, at best. Yet still has no logical reason to be treated differently to all other mechanics that require docking.

 

[Kayweg]

Just quickly throwing this in here:

Hello Commanders!

Just for your information:

Recharging shields quickly at starports: yes, we want to do this, just not sure when we'll be able to get it in.

Looking at shield recharge times: this is something we will be looking at in conjunction with loot.

 

[EUS]

At the very least they could make it so that while you're docked, the shields recharge real time, whether you're logged in or not.
The same way that the mission counter winds down, and rep diminishes.

 

[smartroad]

We need shiled recharching music!
https://youtu.be/jj0ChLVTpaA

I see your lift music and raise you a countdown clock:

[video=youtube_share;M2dhD9zR6hk]https://youtu.be/M2dhD9zR6hk[/video]