Another request to balance chaff units

[Garbarrage]

So let's follow that train of throught. If NPCs were allowed to behave like CMDRs, and many more started employing numerous chaff units, what would the outcome be?

Why have FD not chosen to do that if there's no balancing issue at large?

Agreed... Possibly...

Quit with the strawmen. I'm suggesting a rebalance to address an issue. By all means agree or disagree or debate...

A) NPCs do spam chaff. I regularly see NPCs with 2 or more chaffe equipped.

B) Asking to quit with nerf requests isn't a "straw man" argument.

Personally, I have no problem with nerfs that help gameplay, but nerfing chaffe won't do that. It will just make auto-aim weapons unavoidable.

There is already a solution to chaffe which requires a gameplay solution.... fixed weapons. As soon as you see the chaffe stop, turn your gimbals back on.... problem solved.

 

[Nitek [pl]]

Now FD have made an attempt at "balancing" SCBs to prevent the daisy chain spamming of them, surely similar attention can now be given to chaff units?

For example, a quote from another discussion of mine:-




At the moment, there's a strong impetus for people planning on encountering other CMDRs to:-
a) Have buckets of chaff.
b) Have fixed weapons.

All this is down to chaff units allowing gimbals (& of course turrets) to be severly compromised, hence becoming a no-brainer for outfitting.


A question: Why do we not see NPCs with 3 chaff units (daisy chaining them)? It's for the same reason we don't see NPCs with 4+ SCBs daisy chaining those, or aiming for Power Plants. Because it would make for frustrating gameplay. So why is it any different for CMDR vs CMDR combat?


The only solution I can see is a limit to their usage per X seconds such that a logical balance can be introduced so gimbals/turrets are compromised for X seconds, and then after that, gimbals/turrets get "their turn" for Y seconds... Unless something interesting can be done with heat when they are used?


ps: I'd also on the side like to see an option to set gimbals to fixed (toggle/hold) rather than having to unlock your target. But this in itself is not enough to address the chaff problem as it doesn't help turrets.

NO. It's good. stop having ideas and go play the game cmdr:]

 

[woodhouse]

Stuff rebalanced so far:

Missiles - useless
Torpedos - useless
Mines - useless

Coming soon:

SCB - useless

Next then:

Chaff - useless

As usuall, doing the same nonsense over and over again sure will improve things, NOT.

I don't think you get what NeilF is saying.
Currently it is: gimbals - useless.
What Neil proposes makes gimbals useful again and chaff remains useful be it in a somewhat more balanced way.
It is a real shame that FD are not addressing multiple chaff while they're at it.

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Chaff doesn't need nerfing at all.

When I am fighting someone, and they deploy chaff, I simply un-target them and hey-presto, the gimballed weapons are now fixed weapons.

They don't get away any faster...

And you never noticed that this way you lose all information about:

- Indication of the target distance?
- Shield and hull percentage of the target
- Selected subsystem


---

The only viable solution that works for me is using an Anaconda, which has enough hardpoints to have two fire groups with gimballed weapons and one fire group with fixed only.

 

[Spanksh]

Can we please stop "balancing" (read: breaking) stuff that works perfectly fine?

Chaff works perfectly, it's extremely well balanced as is. Chaff practically lower your shield (take the spot of boosters), they are less effective on bigger ships (which have more slots for utilities) due to their size and more effective on small ships (which have less slots).

Turrets are affected a lot by chaff, however can hit you nonstop without chaff, gimbal can use untarget to work anyways, but does less dmg than fixed, and fixed is unaffected, however offers no assist at all.


Chaff is pretty much the prime example of well balanced content in this game. Just leave it the hell alone. Seriously. Jeez.

Can we please stop trying to ruin one aspect after another for the people who like it the way it is? If you don't like the way the game is, don't play it. Don't try to change every tiny little bit to your preferences. You don't order a salad and then ask for every single ingredient to be changed. Just order what you originally wanted then and don't change the salad at the expense of people who like it and paid for it exactly the way it is.


Basically every "balancing" thread nowadays reads as follows:
"I do PVP and suck at this game, therefor I want everything removed that stops me from killing a 1bil fully armed anaconda in my stock sidewinder within 10 seconds or less. Fix your damn game."
This is literally every other thread nowadays.

 

[NeilF]

A) NPCs do spam chaff. I regularly see NPCs with 2 or more chaffe equipped.

I have never had to unlock (with gimbals) an NPC as they've chain chaffed... They chaffed to such a limited degree it's been easier to simply wait!

There is already a solution to chaffe which requires a gameplay solution.... fixed weapons.

And if you don't have fixed? Surely you're not suggesting the game is unbalanced so everyone needs to carry fixed because chaff is too effective?

As soon as you see the chaffe stop, turn your gimbals back on.... problem solved.

And if the chaff goes on non-stop for minutes?

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Can we please stop "balancing" (read: breaking) stuff that works perfectly fine?

Chaff works perfectly, it's extremely well balanced as is. Chaff practically lower your shield (take the spot of boosters), the are less effective on bigger ships (which have more slots for utilities) due to their size and more effective on small ships (which have less slots).

Turrets are affected a lot by chaff, however can hit you nonstop without chaff, gimbal can use untarget to work anyways, but does less dmg than fixed, and fixed is unaffected, however offers no assist at all.

I agree chaff is nicely balanced... with one unit... But ask why many PvP orientated CMDRs carry 3 for example? Why do they do that? Could it be that it offers a +ve benefit against anyone they bump into who happens to have gimbals/turrets?

 

[Spanksh]

I have never had to unlock (with gimbals) an NPC as they've chain chaffed... They chaffed to such a limited degree it's been easier to simply wait!

And if you don't have fixed? Surely you're not suggesting the game is unbalanced so everyone needs to carry fixed because chaff is too effective?

And if the chaff does on non-stop for minutes?

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I agree chaff is nicely balanced... with one unit... But ask why many PvP orientated CMDRs carry 3 for example? Why do they do that? Could it be that it offers a +ve benefit against anyone they bump into who happens to have gimbals/turrets?

Sorry but this is such a weak argument. Simply unlock your gimbals -> done. The person using chaff sacrificed 20% shield, therefor the minuscule damage difference of gimbals is nullified.
Can't aim with fixed/unlocked gimbals? Well how about you train to get better at the game?

 

[NeilF]

Sorry but this is such a weak argument. Simply unlock your gimbals -> done. The person using chaff sacrificed 20% shield, therefor the minuscule damage difference of gimbals is nullified.
Can't aim with fixed/unlocked gimbals? Well how about you train to get better at the game?

It's more than that isn't it... At the very least it's also the very act of unlocking. ie: - We've already suggest a good step forwards would simply be to allow a toggle/hold bind to set gimbals to fixed?

And we're ignoring turrets of course... But let's even ignore that for the moment!?


As for your suggestion the person using (additional) chaff has sacrificed 20% shield? That's not the case possibly... A chaff unit uses a fraction of the energy of a shield booster... so they may not even have that option (ie: enough power to fit another booster)!

 

[Spanksh]

It's more than that isn't it... At the very least the very act of unlocking. ie: - We've already suggest a good step forwards would simply be to allow a toggle/hold bind to set gimbals to fixed?

I would approve of this, however that's not balancing Chaff, also not balancing Gimbals. That's adding a feature, or rather extending a functionality that already exists.

The thing I have a problem with is "balancing" Chaff (I would make the quotation marks bigger if I could), since it already is balanced (including multiple chaffs).
Just to add this: While I'm still not happy with the SCB rebalance, they actually needed a balancing, since, in contrary to chaff, they actually were genuinely unbalanced. - E.g. those internal compartments could not be used any other way to enhance your combat performance (Hull reinforcement was laughable).
This is in no way the same with Chaff, since there are ways to avoid chaff (there wasn't for SCBs) and removing a chaff gives you other combat enhancing options (e.g. shield boosters).

 

[Garbarrage]

I have never had to unlock (with gimbals) an NPC as they've chain chaffed... They chaffed to such a limited degree it's been easier to simply wait!

I do it all the time... if they chaff, I deselect tgt and keep shooting them. The only reason I bother with gimbals at all is laziness. Maybe if you stopped waiting and did the same, you would accumulate enough practice to see that chaff isn't a problem.

And if you don't have fixed? Surely you're not suggesting the game is unbalanced so everyone needs to carry fixed because chaff is too effective?

If you don't have fixed, deselect tgt... bingo.... now you have fixed. ;-)

And if the chaff goes on non-stop for minutes?

If the chaff goes on non-stop for minutes, you will get plenty of practice, which it appears you may need. ;-)

 

[Abil Midena]

NeilF,

All of your points are valid and correct, but you're never going to get any traction to change chaff because...

Most people in the game don't have big ships. They have the smaller ships, which are exactly the type of ships that benefit most from chaff, and are easiest to use with fixed weapons. They can keep their weaps on the target continuously and mostly stay behind their opponent. Why would they ever need gimb/turret?

They are willing to give up shield boosters to use 2 or 3 banks of chaff because they know that between the never ending stream of chaff, the small size of their ship, and it's maneuverability, they're not going to get hit much anyway.

Big ships are the opposite, and fewer people have them, so fewer people are going to be expressing that viewpoint.

+1 to you for trying though.

 

[Spanksh]

NeilF,

All of your points are valid and correct, but you're never going to get any traction to change chaff because...

Most people in the game don't have big ships. They have the smaller ships, which are exactly the type of ships that benefit most from chaff, and are easiest to use with fixed weapons. They can keep their weaps on the target continuously and mostly stay behind their opponent. Why would they ever need gimb/turret?

They are willing to give up shield boosters to use 2 or 3 banks of chaff because they know that between the never ending stream of chaff, the small size of their ship, and it's maneuverability, they're not going to get hit much anyway.

Big ships are the opposite, and fewer people have them, so fewer people are going to be expressing that viewpoint.

+1 to you for trying though.

I primarily fly a big ship and completely disagree. So no. Chaffs are balanced the way they are for both big and small ships (They are less effective on big ships, however you have more slots, allowing you to use more chaff/shield boosters).
As said, chaff is genuinely one of the best balanced combat aspects, since the very nature of the way it works and the fact they use utility slots balances it across all ship sizes and weapon types.

 

[NeilF]

I do it all the time... if they chaff, I deselect tgt and keep shooting them. The only reason I bother with gimbals at all is laziness. Maybe if you stopped waiting and did the same, you would accumulate enough practice to see that chaff isn't a problem.

You're missing the point?

You may choose to, but you don't have to against NPCs.... ie: They don't chain spam. They're not allowed to. (At least in my year of experience in the game).

Can you imagine the outcry as CMDRs in a 500mCR Anacondas are wiped out by a pair of NPC Asps both perfectly daisy chaining chaff for x mins (& what the hell spamming SCBs too, which they're also not allowed to do, & what the hell aiming at Powerplants, which they're not allowed to do )

 

[Spanksh]

You're missing the point?

You may choose to, but you don't have to against NPCs.... ie: They don't chain spam. They're not allowed to. (At least in my year of experience in the game). Can you imagine the outcry as CMDRs in a 500mCR Anacondas are wiped out by a pair of Asps both perfectly daisy chaining chaff for x mins

This is exactly the problem I have with this whole balancing Chaff discussions. All aspects come down to lack of player skill. As said in my previous post: "I suck at this game therefor I want this stuff removed". If you are unable to follow an Asp with the nose of the Anaconda (which is quite nimble for such a large ship), you don't deserve to survive such an encounter.

 

[Abil Midena]

I primarily fly a big ship and completely disagree. So no. Chaffs are balanced the way they are for both big and small ships (They are less effective on big ships, however you have more slots, allowing you to use more chaff/shield boosters).
As said, chaff is genuinely one of the best balanced combat aspects, since the very nature of the way it works and the fact they use utility slots balances it across all ship sizes and weapon types.

Relax. No one is going to take away your magic potion of 'never ending near invulnerability'.

Less effective on big ships??? LOL. How about useless. Especially since they changed PP hits.

Think about this...why did FD put in a delay "reloading" for chaff? Maybe...hmmm...to help balance it?? Maybe? Get it? Now people just side step that and carry 2 or 3 chaff.

You don't have to admit chaff needs a balance pass. It does.

Be well.

 

[woodhouse]

The option to have a binding to set gimbals to fixed while maintaining target lock seems to be the only option that satisfies both those who wish serial chaff to be dealt with, and those who want chaff to be left alone.

Sounds like a perfect (and effective) compromise to me.

 

[NeilF]

The option to have a binding to set gimbals to fixed while maintaining target lock seems to be the only option that satisfies both those who wish serial chaff to be dealt with, and those who want chaff to be left alone.

Sounds like a perfect (and effective) compromise to me.

I think it sounds like a reasonable step

 

[Spanksh]

magic potion of 'never ending near invulnerability'

Just lol. Thank you for proving me right on what I said about the incentives of asking for a rebalance of Chaff.

Anyways I'm out. Disagreeing with any "I want this changed"-Thread nowadays is futile anyways so have fun.

The option to have a binding to set gimbals to fixed while maintaining target lock seems to be the only option that satisfies both those who wish serial chaff to be dealt with, and those who want chaff to be left alone.

Sounds like a perfect (and effective) compromise to me.

I agree. This would genuinely be a nice feature everyone can probably agree on (I might be wrong though).

 

[Abil Midena]

It would have been nice if all the SCB nerf threads got moved here as well.

 

[Antoniius]

I am a mainly PvE combat oriented player (let's say, Mobius, even if i did not join them ) and my experience is that NPCs use chaffs a lot when flying big ships (anaconda, python, asp and vulture have chaffs 90% of the times) but do not spam them. You have enough time to kill them between chaffs. Actually the same as they do with SCBs.

I have recored a much bigger use of chaffs anyway, than SCBs, in NPCs.

Clearly a player doing "open" fights needs to carry a completely different equipment than a player playing solo/private, and there is nothing strange with that.

The only backward of this game setup is that it does not invite PvE players to play open, as their ships are inadequate.

 

[NeilF]

The only backward of this game setup is that it does not invite PvE players to play open, as their ships are inadequate.

...and bingo!

It's not black and white... but that's the sad side of it... CMDR PvP interdicts CMDR OPEN and most likely CMDR OPEN is at a disadvantage because of it...