Ships The Cutter really takes the wind out of my sails

Jesse Blue

Jesse Blue
At the end of the day, Elite is simply a computer game. And personally, I play computer games to have fun.

I find trading boring. I only truly enjoy combat. Thus, I do not get any particular fun from having to grind rank and loads of money for a ship I won't enjoy flying later.

I already own the ships I enjoy to fly, but none of the new ships motivates me to keep playing. I had some hopes for the cutter to keep me interested, but it ended as a disappointment to me. (And many others, as it seems).

So, it seems end of line for me. Horizons is nice and pretty, but it also gets repetitive quite quickly, and since I do not have any new ships to strive for, I hardly have reasons to justify keeping investing my fun time on this game.
 

ironhammer500

I
Yokoshima said:
Thing is the Cutter is not a trader, it is a Corvette class warship. I was supposed to be the smallest and most agile but...yeah. Anyway people who have played this game for more than a month in a combat role know how important pitch is. I have used the ship for ~ 30 hours, and honestly all I needed was one.
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Where did you get this information?
 

CMDR Regulas

CMDR Regulas
Totally agree with you OP on all points, been flying this cow-beast for a few weeks now trying to get used to it and it is seriously lacking, I've tried the corvette and it's a far superior ship noticed it straight away, The most disappointing thing for me about the Cutter is the A8 Power plant you can not fit all the power hungry weapons I used to use on my Anaconda and modules there just is not enough power! - Nice video too. rep +1
 
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Tanall

Tanall
Yokoshima said:
Thing is the Cutter is not a trader, it is a Corvette class warship. I was supposed to be the smallest and most agile but...yeah. Anyway people who have played this game for more than a month in a combat role know how important pitch is. I have used the ship for ~ 30 hours, and honestly all I needed was one.
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No, it's not a corvette. It's a cutter. One is an offensive asset, made for engagements where capital assets would be unsuitable. The other is a defensive asset, border patrol, enforcement, and interdiction. From what I've seen so far, the Cutter really does fit the role of a modern naval cutter, and the Corvette likewise fills its named role as well.
 

Troa Barton

Troa Barton
HyenaZERO said:
No, it's not a corvette. It's a cutter. One is an offensive asset, made for engagements where capital assets would be unsuitable. The other is a defensive asset, border patrol, enforcement, and interdiction. From what I've seen so far, the Cutter really does fit the role of a modern naval cutter, and the Corvette likewise fills its named role as well.
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If this ship was designed to be a "cutter" as termed by naval standards it would be an asp or a hauler.
If you compare it to a majestic class interdictor it is small but as it sits and is described it is a very rare to obtain imperial warship. Not a "cutter" or patrol vessel as with the coast guard.
It also happens to be the largest ship in the game, again not very "cutter like" as cutters are small craft and to serve a similar role as the federations Corvette. The Corvette while being smaller than the Cutter is a Corvette class ship and is beyond a doubt a highly militarized combat vessel.
the only thing that makes this ship a cutter in naval terms is its name which is oxymoronic.
 

kofeyh

kofeyh
Honestly I've got used to cutter. I quite like it regardless of its awful pitch and agility. My original request to slightly buff thrusters (which is now more relevant to planet landing on high G bodies) stands, but that's just because I'd like to give feedback (it is by no means a demand).

It's pretty clear FDL is likely to be the last time we see fast ship tinkering. Virtually all the new ships are slow (cutter is actually the only exception). And all have low agility. It's clear Frontier have received the "too good" message loud and clear.

I guess it's just another case of be careful for what others wish for. Cutter probably needs to handle like it does, otherwise it's speed and capacity would have to be compromised. The only thing it's got.
 
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Yokoshima

Y
HyenaZERO said:
No, it's not a corvette. It's a cutter. One is an offensive asset, made for engagements where capital assets would be unsuitable. The other is a defensive asset, border patrol, enforcement, and interdiction. From what I've seen so far, the Cutter really does fit the role of a modern naval cutter, and the Corvette likewise fills its named role as well.
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Since I just dug up this link
http://nosuchwebpage.com/index.php?post_id=96
and
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cutter_(boat)
"A cutter is typically a small, but in some cases a medium-sized, watercraft designed for speed rather than for capacity"
So yeah, not a cutter.
 

Yokoshima

Y
kofeyh said:
Honestly I've got used to cutter. I quite like it regardless of its awful pitch and agility. My original request to slightly buff thrusters (which is now more relevant to planet landing on high G bodies) stands, but that's just because I'd like to give feedback (it is by no means a demand).

It's pretty clear FDL is likely to be the last time we see fast ship tinkering. Virtually all the new ships are slow (cutter is actually the only exception). And all have low agility. It's clear Frontier have received the "too good" message loud and clear.

I guess it's just another case of be careful for what others wish for. Cutter probably needs to handle like it does, otherwise it's speed and capacity would have to be compromised. The only thing it's got.
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It's speed is a compromise of it having 7 weapons, 1 C4, and the least amount of combat useful internals (and a C7 PD if it doesn't get buffed), along with its other non-pitch related attributes (drift, thruster strength, etc.). It's capacity is a trade of for it costing ~300 million credits more.
 

jmp470

J
I've been using the Cutter in the Beta. At first I did not like it at all. After trying all three large ships, I realize I like the iCutter the best. It fits my playing style the best, thus far. I even went back to my iClipper, so sweet, but found that I liked the size of the iCutter more. Now I just have to figure out how to afford it! I will sell my anaconda for it.
 

Iori

Iori
askavir said:
I can fly circles around the anaconda in my Clipper... And I can also kill ships faster in a RES than the anaconda, it has much more firepower than my Clipper, but I can reach the targets much faster and keep it on my sights the whole time much easier. The Cutter is an enormous, very heavy ship. Light fighters are supposed to fly circles around it. It would be weird if they couldn't.

The Cutter could do with slightly improved turn rate, but it would still make sense it was the least manouverable of the "big 3" based of mass and size alone. It would be strange if it could keep up with vultures and couriers in the manouverability department. The big 3 are supposed to be effective against other big ships, not at dogfighting couriers and vultures.
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If at least the turrets were good it would make sense, but they are not.

And why this has to be true for the Cutter only? Because the other two can keep up just fine, remember the numbers for the turn rates.

The fact of the matter is that you pay WAY more to be WAY less effective, it just doesn't make sense.

And yes, you can fly circles around an NPC Conda, but they can't fly circles around you if you were in the conda yourself (unless you are doing it terribly wrong), with the cutter on the other hand...
 

Yokoshima

Y
Iori said:
If at least the turrets were good it would make sense, but they are not.

And why this has to be true for the Cutter only? Because the other two can keep up just fine, remember the numbers for the turn rates.

The fact of the matter is that you pay WAY more to be WAY less effective, it just doesn't make sense.

And yes, you can fly circles around an NPC Conda, but they can't fly circles around you if you were in the conda yourself (unless you are doing it terribly wrong), with the cutter on the other hand...
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And for those that call https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=182465. At optimal mass the Cutter is better than a type-9, but only by ~ 10%. The Cutter has much better roll (~18s v 8s), but the type-9 has much better lateral acceleration (~10s vs 16s to go from 0-100), and the Cutter has better forward acceleration. Overall the maneuverability is close, but the Cutter comes out on top. However for a warship in a dogfighting game, it should not have been that close of a call.
 
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Elethiomel Zakalwe

E
Troa Barton said:
The pride of the Imperial Navy, an Imperial warship, successor to the Clipper, to serve a similar role to the Federations Corvette yet faster and more elegant but not quite able to match it in firepower. Flies like a big fat cow.

It's as though a Type 9 and a Python had a Lavian Brandy induced love child, put it in a clipper costume for Halloween and decided it would be best for everyone if it never came off to hide their shame.

This "warship" flies nothing like a successor to the Clipper, it's all ballroom dancing with a great soundtrack. the engines sound amazing and powerfully refined but don't do anything.

The distributor is woefully insufficient, it slides a little too much and doesn't overboost the retro thrusters like it should. The powerplant is lacking despite powering oversized shields and thrusters on top of a full compliment of other internals/weapons. But the worst offender is the pitch rate, keep it drifty but snappy when you boost (like the clipper) but let it swing its nose around (like a dropship/conda) it should be the slowest to pitch and longest to stop sliding around but it shouldn't be half a block away from left field worse.

the clipper could carry more cargo than its predecessors and is not only the fastest ship in the game but could also flip a 180 with ease.

In short increase the size of the distributor and powerplant.
drastically increase the pitch rate, still slowest of the three but only just.
increase the effectiveness of the retro thrusters massively when boost turning only, otherwise keep it sliding around.

if you would prefer to watch a video as to why I came to these conclusions here you go:
https://youtu.be/1kHRJfxSft4

this ship really disappointed me, sure it was fun to work for a kill but at the end of it all I was left deflated and angry. This ship is an armed trader, not a warship that serves a similar role to the corvette while feeling like a successor to the clipper.

this ship is a steaming pile of biowaste in a pretty dress.
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I wouldn't be altogether opposed to increasing its maneuverability slightly, but first its ridiculous speed advantage needs to come down. Also, it can't mass lock the Corvette.
 

Troa Barton

Troa Barton
Yokoshima said:
And for those that call https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=182465. At optimal mass the Cutter is better than a type-9, but only by ~ 10%. The Cutter has much better roll (~18s v 8s), but the type-9 has much better lateral acceleration (~10s vs 16s to go from 0-100), and the Cutter has better forward acceleration. Overall the maneuverability is close, but the Cutter comes out on top. However for a warship in a dogfighting game, it should not have been that close of a call.
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Not to counter your research, but I do find it funny that were comparing this ship to a type 9.
its the battle cow all over again.
 

Yokoshima

Y
Elethiomel Zakalwe said:
I wouldn't be altogether opposed to increasing its maneuverability slightly, but first its ridiculous speed advantage needs to come down. Also, it can't mass lock the Corvette.
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Due to its drift its speed advantage is often lost in combat. And can't mass lock a Corvette? Why? Haven't you heard of a high wake?
 

Troa Barton

Troa Barton
Elethiomel Zakalwe said:
I wouldn't be altogether opposed to increasing its maneuverability slightly, but first its ridiculous speed advantage needs to come down. Also, it can't mass lock the Corvette.
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I have to disagree, even buffing this ship wouldn't put it on par with the corvette. But that's the point, it isn't supposed to match the corvette in firepower and it won't without adding larger or more hard points. Speed is a hallmark of imperial ships, comparitve firepower and defense isn't and that's where I'll give ground. Even if it had the same distributor as the corvette it would not match it in firepower. The oversized shield is a byproduct of its mass, the only thing left to give up is the armor. I'm fine with buffing the armor of the corvette and upping its FSD housing which it should have considering how much it weighs fully fitted and the fact that it's a long range patrol craft.
The anaconda and the corvette are sitting at the table, the corvette is at the mother in laws having a frozen dinner.
 

Yokoshima

Y
Troa Barton said:
I have to disagree, even buffing this ship wouldn't put it on par with the corvette. But that's the point, it isn't supposed to match the corvette in firepower and it won't without adding larger or more hard points. Speed is a hallmark of imperial ships, comparitve firepower and defense isn't and that's where I'll give ground. Even if it had the same distributor as the corvette it would not match it in firepower. The oversized shield is a byproduct of its mass, the only thing left to give up is the armor. I'm fine with buffing the armor of the corvette and upping its FSD housing which it should have considering how much it weighs fully fitted and the fact that it's a long range patrol craft.
The anaconda and the corvette are sitting at the table, the corvette is at the mother in laws having a frozen dinner.
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Though with HRP the Corvette trumps the Cutter already in armor, I would agree. Federation ships are known for their armor and weapon placement/firepower. And a C8 PD for the Cutter really wouldn't put it on par. Each higher class hard-point adds ~60% DPS from the one before. To keep it simple lets make C1 = 1 and ignore hull hardness for now. The Cutter has (1.5*4)+(2.25*2)+3.375 = 13.875. The Cutter has (1*2)+(1.5*2)+2.25+(3.375*2) = 14. Now the Cutter slightly wins out because its two c2s do more hull damage than the Corvette's c1s, but since c1s do so little damage anyway its not a huge difference.
But when you factor in maneuverability and hard point location the Corvette makes much better use of its extra weapons. Even if the Cutter was buffed to Anaconda pitch, the Corvette would still win out. For example the Corvette can boost in combat to stay close (<1.3km). The Cutter will often fly right by the target if it attempts to utilize its boost due to drift.
When it comes to gimbaled, esp. SS sniping, being under 900m is very important. And when it comes to a fixed load-out, the Corvette does a much better job. The Corvette does need more armor and a better FSD though.
 
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