Ships The Cutter really takes the wind out of my sails

[CMDR_UberDude]

I think the thrusters represent potential power, and its up to a ships design how it is used (or wasted). The manufactures of the T-9 and Cutter were...special.

I don't know what they represent to be blunt. I just threw together a T-9 cow for comparison and fully laden, it weighs less than a combat fitted Corvette. Combat Corvette VS T-9 cow These builds are thrown together for quick reference and not optimized. Regardless they both use A7 thrusters. Yet the Corvette not only out turns a T9 but can out boost it. None of it is making sense to me at this point. Maybe someone can chime in and explain things.

 

[askavir]

FAS has much, much better weapon placement and better "out of the blue" pitch. When comparing combat ships though, the Clipper is the counterpart to the FDS, FAS, and to an extent, the FGS (which I find much worse than the FDS do to lacking internals/pitch for just 2 c1s). Some even say the Python is a counterpart to the Clipper. So those are the ships I used. The imperial eagle has crap shields vs the Conda for example, but that's not the ship to compare it to (imo).

True, the weapon placement is crap on the Clipper, but the Clipper has advantage in speed and internals. The FAS has better out-of-blue turning and better lateral thrusters, but the Clipper has outlandish in-the-blue turning and pitch and roll which could make a small fighter envious. FAS has slighly better armor, Clipper has slightly better shield. FAS is better at being a dedicated combat ship, Clipper is better as a multipurpose and is quite better at many other roles.

I think they're quite balanced, without having to be equal. They provide different sets of pros and cons, giving us diversity of options, and reasons to try both instead of just picking one. That's exactly the same I think about the Corvette and Cutter. Having the Corvette and the Cutter in their current state of pros and cons will please a larger number and diversity of players than making the Cutter a replica to the Corvette, which will only please the combat-only players. Anyway, a very slight improvement to the Cutter's pitch would not hurt.

 

[Yokoshima]

True, the weapon placement is crap on the Clipper, but the Clipper has advantage in speed and internals. The FAS has better out-of-blue turning and better lateral thrusters, but the Clipper has outlandish in-the-blue turning and pitch and roll which could make a small fighter envious. FAS has slighly better armor, Clipper has slightly better shield. FAS is better at being a dedicated combat ship, Clipper is better as a multipurpose and is quite better at many other roles.

I think they're quite balanced, without having to be equal. They provide different sets of pros and cons, giving us diversity of options, and reasons to try both instead of just picking one. That's exactly the same I think about the Corvette and Cutter. Having the Corvette and the Cutter in their current state of pros and cons will please a larger number and diversity of players than making the Cutter a replica to the Corvette, which will only please the combat-only players. Anyway, a very slight improvement to the Cutter's pitch would not hurt.

"I think they're quite balanced, without having to be equal. They provide different sets of pros and cons, giving us diversity of options, and reasons to try both instead of just picking one."
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Very much agreed.
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"Having the Corvette and the Cutter in their current state of pros and cons will please a larger number and diversity of players than making the Cutter a replica to the Corvette, which will only please the combat-only players"
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That is where I disagree. The FAS and Clipper are pretty close combat wise (assuming you don't use fixed) but the Clipper is a better multipurpose. Both are viable. But when it comes to the Corvette and the Cutter that is no longer the case. The Cutter isn't even close to on par. Let the Cutter have diversity. Much more cost, equal combat capabilities (through Conda tier pitch and maybe a C8 PD) but better cargo space to offset the cost.
The Corvette will still be a better pure combat ship (more useful internals, great weapon placement, duel C4s, better pitch as well as almost all other maneuverability aspects like drift and thruster strength).
Though, being warships, I do think these ships should cater to combat pilots first and foremost. We know the Panther Clipper is on the way for example.
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What we really needs is some large, long range planetary exploration ships. Cutter tier pitch and type-9 tier roll, C7 PD, and 7-9 overall weak HPs. (say 2 C3s, 3 C2s, and 4 C1s). But a great abundance of internals (not high class) to carry all the landing ships you could want, your scanners, fuel scoop, etc. Add to it a 64 tonne fuel tank, better laden jump range than an Anaconda and, most importantly, an open view cockpit.

 

[Crimson Kaim]

Cutter is perfect. It is an amazing Warship that has been picked on by this forum. It doesn't have a pitch problem one bit.

If someone disagrees, I will gladly fight them in my Beta Cutter against their Corvette or Anaconda, FDL, Python, Vulture, Clipper, whatever. Will be home Monday night.

Edit: PM me for a meetup. Will be back in town to play Monday.

Cutter is an amazing warship piloted by CMDR's trying to fly it like a Corvette.

+1 I would love to fight ya in a Corvette but I don't have the beta ... just for fun though. Your attitude seems to come from a lot of killing potential

 

[kofeyh]

Honestly I don't give a crap if Cutter stays as it is. You learn to adapt to what you have.

Edit : it simply isn't realistic to expect wholesale changes to the ship; I've seen all sorts of responses that basically are "make cutter the corvette". Honestly? Go buy a corvette and be happier. We have a large range of small ships now, that are now very much the same as each other; this is exactly mirroring the outcome sought. It's boring as hell.

 

[ironhammer500]

I don't know what they represent to be blunt. I just threw together a T-9 cow for comparison and fully laden, it weighs less than a combat fitted Corvette. Combat Corvette VS T-9 cow These builds are thrown together for quick reference and not optimized. Regardless they both use A7 thrusters. Yet the Corvette not only out turns a T9 but can out boost it. None of it is making sense to me at this point. Maybe someone can chime in and explain things.

So then the Corvette is probably to agile? This would help if both connie and Corvette were to agile and the Cutter was indeed correct then it would solve balance issue, but i still stand by my claim that Class 8 thrusters are bugged i put on D7 and they have the same drift as A8 class so i reckon the class 8 Handle like the Class 8 with thrusters.

 

[Yokoshima]

Honestly I don't give a crap if Cutter stays as it is. You learn to adapt to what you have.

Edit : it simply isn't realistic to expect wholesale changes to the ship; I've seen all sorts of responses that basically are "make cutter the corvette". Honestly? Go buy a corvette and be happier. We have a large range of small ships now, that are now very much the same as each other; this is exactly mirroring the outcome sought. It's boring as hell.

People don't want a Corvette copy, just a combat viable ship. Adjusting the pitch to Conda levels (and only the pitch, just one of the many factors that makes up "agility") will not make it fly like a Corvette. A C8 PD will not make it the Big ship killer the Corvette is. All the changes will do, for a Combat role, is
A.) Give unaligned pilots more viable ships to choose from
B.) Give the Empire one viable super-heavy
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Cutter will still have: Highest cost, best boost speed, highest stock shields, better medium range weapons (as in no C1s), highest mass-lock, lowest amount of combat useful internals, and power issues.
Corvette still have: Most combat useful internals, Dual C4s, most agility, and great (if not the best) weapon placements.
Conda will still have: Most weapons, best jump range, cheapest of the 3, highest stock armor and most combat useful internals.
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Depending on how much risk you like to take flying/how you like to come at combat, each ship offers a unique approach (within reason of course, the goal is still to shoot things and not get shot). The Conda is extremely tanky, The Corvette is an agile heavy weapons platform, and the Cutter has very high boost speed for fleeing or closing large gaps, and the best shields (though if you take SCBs and internals into account it could have the worst).

 

[Jesse Blue]

Having the Corvette and the Cutter in their current state of pros and cons will please a larger number and diversity of players than making the Cutter a replica to the Corvette, which will only please the combat-only players.

Then how about this:

If you load up your cutter to the top (around the ~2500 t. mark), it flies like the fat whale it currently is. = Traders happy.

If you go for a light-weight combat loadout (about 50% lower than its optimal thruster mass), the ship gains much improved maneuverability, similar to corvettes anacondas. = Combat players happy.

Everyone happy.

 

[Yokoshima]

Then how about this:

If you load up your cutter to the top (around the ~2500 t. mark), it flies like the fat whale it currently is. = Traders happy.

If you go for a light-weight combat loadout (about 50% lower than its optimal thruster mass), the ship gains much improved maneuverability, similar to corvettes anacondas. = Combat players happy.

Everyone happy.

The max benefit you get from flying at half is ~ 15%, but even then most large ships fly (laden) with a ~7% bonus. The Cutter is ~ 40% worse (pitch) than a Conda. And the Conda and Corvette can stack SCBs and HRPs (that can easily double if not more than triple potential) while still being much more agile than a Cutter at "minimum" weight.
That is, if C8 thrusters weren't so god-like. C8 thrusters have a optimal mass of 3360. As a result, most people fly (as well as most the pitch number gathered from) a "light" weight perspective. Obviously, people are not happy.
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Also I do not know why traders would want it to fly like a fat whale.

 

[CMDR_UberDude]

So then the Corvette is probably to agile? This would help if both connie and Corvette were to agile and the Cutter was indeed correct then it would solve balance issue, but i still stand by my claim that Class 8 thrusters are bugged i put on D7 and they have the same drift as A8 class so i reckon the class 8 Handle like the Class 8 with thrusters.

It seems to basically boil down to ships in ED having a base modifier for maneuvering and thrust. I don't think that the A8 thrusters are broken, I think the base modifier for the Cutter is too low at the moment. Like i said in my comparison of the Corvette VS T9. A combat fitted Corvette has a higher laden weight than a fully loaded/shielded T9 with 500 tons of cargo. Yet the Corvette has a higher boost speed and much better pitch. Despite the fact that they both use the same class of thrusters. So the only difference I can conclude is that the base modifier for the Corvette is higher than the T9.

I'm not going to argue if that's right or wrong. If both modifiers were the same, you'd have a Corvette with a slower top speed and worst pitch than a T9. But where it isn't right is the fact that it seems like then Cutter has the same base modifier as the T9. if not worst. If all things were equal and the base modifiers for all ships was .1 then the Corvette would perform worst than a T9 and the Cutter and Anaconda would fly like the Clipper.

Bottom line is there is some really wonky things going on with thrusters behind the scenes.

 

[askavir]

Then how about this:

If you load up your cutter to the top (around the ~2500 t. mark), it flies like the fat whale it currently is. = Traders happy.

If you go for a light-weight combat loadout (about 50% lower than its optimal thruster mass), the ship gains much improved maneuverability, similar to corvettes anacondas. = Combat players happy.

Everyone happy.

Not entirely sure if traders get happier if their ships handle poorly.

But think about it like this: if the Cutter handled like the Corvette, it would have a massive advantage over it, as its a lot faster, has more internals, better jump range, better shield, better armor, etc. Then people would demand nerfs to its speed, jump range, shield, armor, and internals, to compensate the Corvette disadvantages, and we would end up in the end with 2 exactly the same ships. And that would make the game poorer, not richer.

At least like they are now, the pair of ships cater to a much wider audience than if end ended up with 2 similar ships.

*a slight improvement of the Cutters pitch wouldn't hurt though, even if it was still worse than the Corvette.

 

[ironhammer500]

I know the cutter needs its pitch sorting but i hate how people are crying its only a trade ship...NO! The type 9 is not just a trade ship its capable of mining, and defending its self in combat, the Cutter is what the Imperial consider a counter to the Corvette, does that mean it should instant win against a Corvette or out perform it, NO! It means they build a ship class they deemed good enough to fight the Corvette, ok it does need a bit more pitch but that is it...

 

[jmp470]

The one thing many people forget, is that no ship is designed to fight a battle alone. It is always best to team up! With that in mind, the Cutter is amazing at providing fire support to the Clipper and Courier. If you wing up with some of those, that would be a menacing fleet!

 

[Crimson Kaim]

The one thing many people forget, is that no ship is designed to fight a battle alone. It is always best to team up! With that in mind, the Cutter is amazing at providing fire support to the Clipper and Courier. If you wing up with some of those, that would be a menacing fleet!

Basically but I think the Cutter-supporters want the Cutter to be a brainless PvE ship that flies as easy as a gimballed-Python. PvP wise this ship is awesome (IMO) but PvE it *could* be a pain for some.

 

[ironhammer500]

Basically but I think the Cutter-supporters want the Cutter to be a brainless PvE ship that flies as easy as a gimballed-Python. PvP wise this ship is awesome (IMO) but PvE it *could* be a pain for some.

Why do we need the Cutter the Corvette all ready is a dumbed down easy mode python brain less turn point click and laugh as those 2 Huge guns blow people up in seconds.

 

[Yokoshima]

Basically but I think the Cutter-supporters want the Cutter to be a brainless PvE ship that flies as easy as a gimballed-Python. PvP wise this ship is awesome (IMO) but PvE it *could* be a pain for some.

We just want it to not be one of the worst PvE combat/multirole ships in the game. As it stands the Conda, Corvette, FDS, FGS, FAS, Clipper, FDL, and Python are all better PvE ships (and much, much cheaper). To an extent, the I. courier and the Vulture are also better in a few combat situations due to insanely high maneuverability and shields. They can simply outlast an opponent and make for great SS snipping support in a wing. For RES my kills/hour is almost matched by the Asp Explorer, if not a little better.
The Cutter also has a very low skill cap (discrepancy). Due to how un-agile it is flying with FA off is very easy, but doesn't change much. With other ships a good pilot can really bring out the ships potential, but it is quite challenging. The Cutter in the hands of a novice is a very, very bad ship. In the hands of a master, it's still a bad ship. An FDL for example is a decently good ship in the hands of a novice, and a great ship in the hands of a master.
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Now if "hit and run" and turrets weren't utter crap this ship could be ok. Not great, but ok.

 

[Yokoshima]

Why do we need the Cutter the Corvette all ready is a dumbed down easy mode python brain less turn point click and laugh as those 2 Huge guns blow people up in seconds.

Varity and RP. That's it. But they are very important reasons.
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The AI is bad, but (provided better AI doesn't show up, which I suspect it will) there are two ways to increase the challenge. Its like a race. Its easy to get around the track. Any car can do it. So what do you do? You either get the best car you can and beat your old records and see how far you can push it, or you hop in a crappy car and see if you can match the better ones.
Same with ED. You can push your efficiency to the limit, or hop in weaker/starter ships to up the challenge. It is only "easy mode" if you choose it.
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That and the python has a number of advantages over the 3 big ships, such as speed (top), thruster strength (vertical, acceleration, etc.), much cheaper (less risky to fly), lands on outposts, great weapon convergence, etc.

 

[Heavenly-Hammer]

The one thing many people forget, is that no ship is designed to fight a battle alone. It is always best to team up! With that in mind, the Cutter is amazing at providing fire support to the Clipper and Courier. If you wing up with some of those, that would be a menacing fleet!

actually, no. the game is designed to be a good experience in a single player game. no ship is designed to require a wing.

that said, I'd like the game to be designed in the future to be best experienced with a wing of controllable (command-able) NPC wings that you can issue orders to and hire for a price. that way, ships can gain more of a role focus. that would also make PvP more interesting because not every ship will be essentially same with the variance coming from hardpoints quantity and pitch/speed.

 

[Heavenly-Hammer]

Varity and RP. That's it. But they are very important reasons.
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The AI is bad, but (provided better AI doesn't show up, which I suspect it will) there are two ways to increase the challenge. Its like a race. Its easy to get around the track. Any car can do it. So what do you do? You either get the best car you can and beat your old records and see how far you can push it, or you hop in a crappy car and see if you can match the better ones.
Same with ED. You can push your efficiency to the limit, or hop in weaker/starter ships to up the challenge. It is only "easy mode" if you choose it.

this too.

when I want to have fun, you'll see me in my iCourier turning and burning in hi Conflict zones. simply the most entertaining experience ED offers. Great ship for a fixed gun and you feel like you earned each and every kill you collect. Yea, you don't make much money but who cares.

it's too bad the game doesn't do a better job of emphasizing fun and experience over credits. the game really is much more fun when you're not pushing for more money.

 

[ironhammer500]

We just want it to not be one of the worst PvE combat/multirole ships in the game. As it stands the Conda, Corvette, FDS, FGS, FAS, Clipper, FDL, and Python are all better PvE ships (and much, much cheaper). To an extent, the I. courier and the Vulture are also better in a few combat situations due to insanely high maneuverability and shields. They can simply outlast an opponent and make for great SS snipping support in a wing. For RES my kills/hour is almost matched by the Asp Explorer, if not a little better.
The Cutter also has a very low skill cap (discrepancy). Due to how un-agile it is flying with FA off is very easy, but doesn't change much. With other ships a good pilot can really bring out the ships potential, but it is quite challenging. The Cutter in the hands of a novice is a very, very bad ship. In the hands of a master, it's still a bad ship. An FDL for example is a decently good ship in the hands of a novice, and a great ship in the hands of a master.
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Now if "hit and run" and turrets weren't utter crap this ship could be ok. Not great, but ok.

Only 2 of the ships listed are Multirole, the FDS really is more a fighter support then a multirole....Now an interesting fact the Python fully A and with HRP on actually pitchs LESS then the Cutter...so idk how you are using your cutter or flying it but if you somehow pitch slower then a Python then someone is flying their cutter wrong.

It is not worse then a Python, FDS or clipper... the FAS can sit behind a Conda so its not fair to use that ship, the Conda is very very slow so its easy to abuse the NPC boosts to simple sit there and pitch and let them get into your guns.

FDL is much like a Vulture just abuse its amazing speed.