Let's not be intellectually dishonest. The Python gets a huge pitch increase from boost turning and fa-off boost turning. The Cutter doesn't get anywhere near the same sort of advantage. If it did, this thread wouldn't exist. If they balance the Cutter's pitch based on boost, I think everyone will be happy, tbqh.
Ships The Cutter really takes the wind out of my sails
- Thread starter Troa Barton
- Start date
Very much agreed.
.
.
Manual Merge
.
.
Also, very much agreed. Even on the ship of choice for CZ challenges.
Last edited:
I don't know what odd magic you use, but I can easily get my python to turn much better than a Conda, and stay much closer to the target. Not to mention all the other superior maneuverability traits of the Python. Unless all you do is pull back on the stick with FA-on. But that would be an issue with the pilot rather than the ship.
.
Python, FDS and the Clipper can easily keep their nose on point doing damage equivalently ~90% of the time. And, save the FDS, they can also stay out of firing arcs with ease. The FD/GS can also stay out of firing arcs better than the Cutter can (while still doing damage). That is why they are better ships. They dish out more hurt, and take less. Same with the Conda and Corvette (which can boost in combat without overshooting by 1-2km). Almost every single non starter multirole/combat ship is better. I actually can't think of one ship that is worse (again, save the "starter" ships).
.
Also, the Cutter is a warship. Its not a multirole. At best, it is a combat/trader (to heavy to be a good explorer, and lack luster jump range). Then again so is the Corvette. Not as good at trading, but much cheaper (and much better at any PvE combat role save maybe planetary assaults on low G plantes.)
Last edited:
not my magic its on a video test posted on this thread and in the last cutter thread maybe look for it.
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=207593&p=3202970&viewfull=1#post3202970
Last edited:
I have some numbers too.
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=182465
Huge discrepancy. Also the use of FA off, boost, and lateral thrusters (and the python's are quite strong) makes a huge difference.
Yea the ICutter turns in about 25 seconds while the Python took 31 Seconds that is a Huge gap and it means the Python is the slowest turning ship in the game, yet it still is regarded as one of the best BH ships....so i do not understand your argument? And Fa off boost turn helps all ships...
From the numbers the only problem i can see with the iCutter suffers from the blue zone thrusters not being strong enough, but compared to a python at every other speed it out turns it, the only difference is the python has 0 drift.
Last edited:
Yes it does, while the speed is at 0...
No one turns in a fight with zero throttle. So your point is invalid.
What matters is the pitch rate in the blue zone and nothing else.
"Fa off boost turn helps all ships"
- INDEED, but unlike the cutter all the other ships turn significantly faster with Fa-Off, you dont really notice turning much faster in the Cutter.
So that point is invalid as well.
Last edited:
But look at the sweet spot pitch. That is why the python is so good. Not only does that awesome sweet spot pitch mean FA off turning is good (unlike the Cutter), but it can stay in the blue easier thanks to better positive and negative acceleration. And that low drift is a big deal. When you turn around, you are fighting your drift. The longer you fight it, the longer your opponent has to turn around. Ships like the Conda, Python, and esp. the Corvette (it has awesome spool up time) can also boost to negate drift, due to top speed and boost speed being decently close (thus easier to get back in the blue). Do that in the Cutter and you blow right past the target (high drift, poor negative acceleration, and a much greater discrepancy between ideal speed and boost, so you can't even turn around to use positive acceleration to effectively slow down; like you can in the Clipper/FAS/FDL/etc.) and have to fight the drift all over again (unless the gap was already large, obviously).
Last edited:
AGREED! I am patient. Really, I am. But I don't understand why turrets are so ineffective in this game. Alright, surely behind "fixed" and perhaps a small bit "gimballed" but turrets are the thing to use on slow ships in almost any space game I've played. Missles... don't get me started on them. And where's the flapdoodling mines? These are basic weaponry!
So the sweet spot on a python goes from 31 secs at 0 spd and 100 100% spd is 30 sec to 12 at 50% spd...hmm you actually sure we are using ships that are "balanced" as a reference maybe the older ships are to agile and need to be brought in line with balancing if you look they all get a massive spike when at the optimal..
Still explain how the cutter still out turns the Python at full speed.
I think its more an issue with prior ships then the cutter being "Useless".
Im not denying the cutter has a pitch problem, i just do not think you have even tried to use it as combat ship, instead just cried i cant use it....because i cant turn like a conda..
Last edited:
The topic of the Cutter being underwhelming and Turrets needing to be vastly improved has been discussed to death. It is obvious something needs to change. Pretty much all arguments have been made and discussed to death. All that needs to happen now is FD doing something about it or making an official response pertaining to the problems.
CMDR_UberDude
Banned
I've assumed that they're just too busy with fixes/tweaks/changes to horizon to bother with it right now. I wouldn't be surprised if the Cutter is pushed to live the way it is. And the Cutter isn't the only ship players aren't happy with. The thread on the Cobra 4 is pretty lively and there's much head scratching with the Viper. . I'm not sure if someone different was put in charge of ship design but they're not making people happy at the moment.
Except for traders. Us traders are pretty thrilled about hauling almost 800 tons at a time.
Quick disclaimer: I had a little trouble comprehending what you were saying, so if I end up missing the point of your post I apologize.
.
I think they are balanced in the environment that FD has made (For example each level of PD not adding a lot of cooling, same weapons/modules for each ship, and a steady decline in maneuverability and top speed as ships get larger - two traits that are very important for dogfighting). Not perfect, (FDL may be a bit OP right now for example) but close.
.
I think the reason larger ships with "fast" top speed have such out of the blue penalties is to make them in line with smaller ships. Smaller ships are agile at speed so they can close a gap and stay on something's 6. Larger ships have more firepower and (usually) defense. But in combat you have to make a choose - close the gap, or turn. Pivoting (FA off turns) are insanely important for such ships as FA off lets you whip your nose around while maintaining speed. However, unlike a normal turn, after the pivot you have to fight your drift (unlike a small ship).
The reason large ships out turn the python at high speed is because their top speed and drift are bad. Very bad. The python's "blue" speed very good for a ship that size, and its boost isn't too far off. As a result it can speed up and get back in the blue very easily, and maintain a much higher average speed (vs the super-heavies). Not as well as small ships, or ships dedicated to agility (FDL for example) but its the trade off for the internal slots and very powerful hard-points.
.
The Super-heavy ships however have high drift and very poor top speed. From a logical standpoint I kind of get why they have less penalties, as they do fly at much slower max speeds. From a gameplay one however this is so Super-heavy ships can do more than face tank. Already they are at a disadvantage (as in get hit more) than their smaller counterparts. And gameplay still revolves around dogfighting. With their drift they can't cycle between turning and speed like the python can. They already are the worst dogfighters, but if they couldn't reliably speed up they would be forced to face tank every fight. So they devs threw 'em a bone. Relative to their sweet spot they don't take a hit at max/min speeds like other ships, but they are still very poor and struggle (comparatively) to get back in the blue.
.
.
So to summarize: Super-heavy ships do better at max and min speed relative to the ideal to compensate their already poor pitch and comparative inability to fly in the blue.
Last edited:
Just keep spamming bug report until they finally see, and if a new team has taken over balancing? How come the Corvette is fine?
Many (including myself) do not think the Corvette is fine, just not as bad. In fact, if the Cutter got "fixed" the Corvette would get more attention. Though that is for another thread.
That being said,imo, the only real things I would change is the FSD and the stock armor. The only reason I am against changing the C1s to C2s is because it is apparently very time consuming ( I couldn't tell you why) and new C3/4 weapons may make that not necessary.
.
To clarify, the reason I do not think it is "fine" is because it is a rank locked dedicated combat ship and it is more or less on par with the Conda as far as combat goes. It already sacrificed an internal slot and a massive mount of jump range/efficiency. And, lore wise, having the lowest amount of hull is just weird. As you can see I do not think it needs a massive buff. Just a mild armor buff (Anaconda tier, or at least better than a Cutter) and a bit better jump (not much, just enough to improve QoL a bit)
Last edited:
The corvette is an awesome ship, it does need a better FSD when loaded down it actually exceeds its FSD's optimal mass, it is also supposed to be a long range patrol ship. It would be hypocritical of me not to give the corvette the same treatment as the cutter for what I find wrong with it.
I too would like to see those smalls switched out but that ship is only going to get better when more huge hardpoints finally come out, so with that in mind the smalls are perfectly fine imo. Combat wise I think that ship is perfect for what's to come minus the armor which it should have more of than the cutter. it's mostly just that FSD housing which has nothing to do with combat strength.
but again that's for another thread, first the cutter needs to at least become a competitor /sidegrade to it, which is why I'm not advocating sacrifing anything on the cutter to give it what it needs. The corvette needs some attention too.
Last edited:
So I responded before I caught that edit, and I try not to ignore things. Anyway, I've spent ~ 30 hours in one in CZs and RESs. So far the best way I have found is FA off pretty much all the time and semi-standard dog fighting (with an angled boost here and there). I have to repair more often, but the kill speed of "hit and run" is abysmal. In CZs I only attack ships that are not looking at me. With luck I can do enough alpha damage that they can't hit me much before they die. Vs Anaconda's/FGS I do "hit and run" since NPCs pull agro and there is no way I am face tanking that.
Last edited:
Dunno. But some people apparantly want that.
Good turrets on a bad ship are still better on a good ship.
i agree turrets need a lot of love but that won't fix the cutter, it will just make it suck a little less.
The whole outfitting department needs love and will affect all ships, making them better will make other ships better too.