Discussion Open Letter to Frontier Developments

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let's put it that way - you want to discover routes the old way - by accident. Go for it - nobody is stopping you. but please, please, please - stop whining that other people want to play their way.

As for the "stations can't communicate" nonsense - in the game ships are traveling faster than speed of light, jumping light years in matter of seconds and there is huge traffic that could take the information from A to B. Moreover - If you try to smuggle something everybody along the route instantaneously knows where you heading and already waiting for you in a spot for ambush - and that means in the ED virtual galaxy must be some sort of instantaneous information exchange and it's reasonable to expect that if stations and ships would be exchanging information about fines, legal status, political nonsense and about when you are leaving and where they would exchange information about trade data as well.

Per my previous post, while this might be true, having all that data at your finger tips is tantamount to playing the game for you. From a trading perspective, a significant part of the gameplay IS the FINDING of the most profitable trade routes, especially those hidden away in some corner that no-one else knows about - but if you have all that info (along with everyone else, mind you) and can cherrypick the optimum routes at a glance, all it becomes is carry commodities back and forth between two points until the prices change, then simply check the tool for the next route, travel straight there and repeat. All for the highest value commodities only, to maximise profit in the shortest time. And everyone else can see the routes too - no more finding of a juicy profitable route and keeping it to yourself. Not my preferred direction for trade data information sharing, but whatever floats your boat I guess.........I'm happy to leave it to 3rd party tools using trade intelligence/info provided by CMDRs themselves thanks.
 
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People who complain about modern, useful mechanics in new games should be banned from any gaming after 2000s, also the internet since that also didn't exist so prevalently.

It's the same bull:):):):) as old people saying 'in my time I had fun with sticks and mud, you kids don't need no fancy schmancy plastic toys'
 
I love this. More power to you all, and thanks for all the hard work you put into making those 3rd party applications as good as they are. It would be very difficult to collate all of the information needed, otherwise.
 
Per my previous post, while this might be true, having all that data at your finger tips is tantamount to playing the game for you. From a trading perspective, a significant part of the gameplay IS the FINDING of the most profitable trade routes, especially those hidden away in some corner that no-one else knows about...
That's no problem. No site with trading data is actually so comprehensive and up-to-date that it contains all best trade routes in whole inhabited space. Sure, there are some nice routes documented, but you can also find lot of very profitable trade routes nobody knows about. And it's up to you if do you share that information with rest of the community or not. Even with official API, unless there will be some craziness like method to obtain all trading data at once near real-time it won't be possible to document all trade routes.

But once again there must be said, that it is not just about trade data and whole point of official API request is not to just get "better" market prices info...
 
Any response about "muh immershun" should be met with a fake smile and pat on the head.

We have market analysis tools TODAY, in 2015, that allow people to access an immense amount of real-time information. We have FTL communication in the game. People crying about lore are usually interested in keeping things the same, because they don't like to adapt to an evolving environment. If you want to keep things the same, then obviously you are satisfied with the base game without patches and need nothing else... right?

This is a video game. The lore can grow to fit what's good for the game, and if it can't, then that lore is garbage and should be re-written. Do you think there are no scientific advancements anymore in the future, just because *you* can't imagine further technology?
 
Most of us have real lives making it impossible to spend the time to discover this information in game. These 3rd party programs and sites allows for people like me to sit at work and still actively participate. Logistics is a huge thing in any endeavor and I refuse to spend time I could be flying trying to figure out where to go and what to take.


These sites are invaluable and without them you will lose a major section of your player base. For those who think this is in some way violating your idea of how this game was to be played, get over it. This game is already allowing for these sites to exist and thus are as much a part of this game as anything else.
 
I bet cargo ship/plane captains love going around the world just to look at prices. Oh, they have all the information already? CHEATERS!!! /s
 
I stopped work on A.E.R. (Voice controlled access to EDDN data) for numerous reasons, the main one being lack of the promised API from frontier.

To be completely honest, a lot of the need for an API comes from the lack of (easily) available information in game. Having to tab-out to look up something simple (such as the relative distance between two stars) really really really sucks for people using more immersive methods of playing (such as HMDs or eyefinity/surround).

So I stand behind OP. Please let people know what you plan to do.
 
I bet cargo ship/plane captains love going around the world just to look at prices. Oh, they have all the information already? CHEATERS!!! /s

but that is how trade is done today! You load an truck full of stuff and

it drives around until someone pays more than the junk was bought for!
 
The popularity of these tools proves that Elite needs sources of information. The most information dense part of the game is severely lacking in readily available information. The only way to coordinate within Powerplay is to manually input data incredibly often. Powerplay data is tenuous and entire situations can turn around in hours. Having a steady source of information is absolutely key to accurate Powerplay management. For example, fortification data that ranks fortification targets needs to be updated often so that you aren't telling 50 players to fortify a system that jumped to 115% in the last hour. An API that feeds the information would be incredibly useful. As it stands, my players are sick of periodically checking the galaxy map to input a number. They aren't having fun with it since it requires constant attention.

We need a proper Powerplay API.
 
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Actually came here to say that i'm supporting OP to the fullest. And a big thank you guys.

Read a bit and can't resist commenting on "cheating": I spent my last two playing days updating a trade data base with current surface port trade data/ missing stations - for an area somewhere close to the edge of the bubble. MY trade area, as i would like to (incorrectly) call it. Lots of data mining for no immediate profit - data that is becoming outdated as soon as someone without eddn connection uses the port to trade.
I also did this before using any API, with pen and paper and later by exporting .csv's. It is likely that i will be using most of the data for myself and no-one else but the looong range traders is benefiting from what i do given the remote position. This and a few rules is what i made up to "qualify" myself in front of my gamers-morals-compass to use said trade data base, as not to spoil my game (there's more like: only stations logged or already accessed by me, set period of time and stuff)...

My point is simply this: An API can help you and - for example, simply spare you from going pen and paper. An API can also hint you at good deals if you tell it to do so. The API i currently use for example is quite versatile, you can tweak it to be spoilerless and just an electronic notepad/database.
It doesn't tell you how to play or how/when to use it. It is still up to you and your own personal set of rules as to how to approach the use of any api. Just another Elite-meta game.
Implement some rules as to what api's are allowed and which aren't, as long as there's no advantage in it's usage over other players - other than sparing the live of many innocent pens and sheets of paper, which they so willingly sacrifice - i'd support it. But calling the use "cheat" is just too easy. You can still work out your own trade routes, people might still "steal" a good trade away just right before your nose.. api or not. S...t i spent hours just logging stations so i can make some likely profits. I don't like easy, but if i did, what is it to you who can just choose to ignore the api?
 
Yeah my site was getting out of date as I'd not yet hooked it up to EDDN and other sites were so they were getting more data. I've spent the last week sorting that out so things should improve greatly over the next week.

Really glad to hear this Thrudd. I've been using your site for quite some time - and although I don't mind collecting and then uploading my data, integration to EDDN will make your life and ours simpler (well - once the coding and debugging is done) :)
 
Galnet is a news network, there could be ships getting the news to every system, CQC is just another game mode, you don't get to fight in your ASP, it's just like a simulator like Arena commander in Star Citizen, chat and other stuff is part of the game.

There reason why I think trade routes should not be on the website is cause it spoils the game and tell you where to go to make easy money, people should learn trade routes by playing the game and communicate with other people, not having a website tell you where to go to make money, that's lazy and gamebreaking, it's like a cheat

They aren't , in stories covered by lore they play rather interesting role. There's considerable delay of information traveling trough human space and writers play around it rather well. Regarding trading and other data it is obvious gameplay device so players would have to seek information themselves or trough other channels, or take a risk to follow trade routes. As I said before, it is game rewarding risk/decision making and if you want just press buttons and become richer automatically, maybe it is not that game then to play.

You boys are trying really hard to make excuses for something when it just isn't going to fly. "Writers play around it"...how exactly? How does the news get to me 50,000Ly away, isolated, that's a heck of a prediction that they wrote, stored on my ship computer behind a firewall not allowing it to be read for months and months. You can't say, "it's a game, it's okay for there to be chat and positioning and powerplay and etc etc etc, but not this and this and this, because reasons that are mine!".
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Trading isn't fun because of finding a route, that's tedium (maybe you have fun, of course, maybe you have fun poking yourself in the eye, not judging), what's fun is: making credits, evading the cops (bulk smuggling), evading pirates (bulk trading), meeting BGS demands, flying efficiently, affecting the landscape of the galaxy. However, trading is only setup to do these in a very partial and hollow way. Meeting BGS demand is little more than "my commodity ran out, better wait till it fills back up, I'll go to my backup route", evading pirates/cops is nothing more than "submit, boost, high wake". In the end, however you found your route, you're just looking to make as much money as you can, as fast as you can, that leaves "making credits/flying efficiently" as the bulk of the trading fun because the rest just isn't meaty enough to be satisfying.
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A well designed trade system would have all the information available everywhere (it just doesn't make sense for it not to be there), it would come down to be a matter of who could get the contacts to source the material fast and cheap and get it there quickly and reliably. The mechanics just aren't in the game to be able to do this, though. So trading isn't interactive, it isn't deep, it isn't skillful. It's luck, it's grindy and it's shallow.
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Want to make trading fun and deep and interactive, throw it largely on the mission structure, mixed with the CG structure. I take a contract to move x number of goods to y system, the more I fulfill the more money I make, it's their goods so I'm responsible to find more if I lose some to pirates. I get better contracts based on reliable, fast performance (rep structure) and slowly build up a trade network allowing me to source a variety of goods from many systems so that when the particularly lucrative "we need this and have no source" contracts come in, I have the contacts to get ahold of it. The black market works the same way, but with a higher risk/reward.
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But I suppose if staring at a galaxy map looking for ag/high tech stations near one another to find that station A with high supply sells good x for 20% more than station b with low supply is "deep, immersive gameplay", then what we have is fine.
 
The lore argument has been brought up quite a few times in the past. I personally think that the lore argument has gone out of the window the moment CQC has been introduced. An explorer in the middle of the galaxy can participate in CQC with others anywhere else in the galaxy. Hence its possible to communicate with each other over long distances instantaneously in the ED universe. But lets remember its just a game......

That kind of instant long range communication has been available since the galaxy-wide voice chat for friendly commanders was introduced. ;) It's a game. The lore argument is a weak one, usually fielded by players who don't like some particular change. If we were to argue with lore consistency, we could argue against most feautres of the game. People usually just selectively chose things they're not happy with.
 
Good luck OP, I really hope you get some traction on this. I think a key part of your post that maybe hasn't been emphasized enough is the concept of players doing the work to build the tools. This does not have to be a resource-intensive thing for FD to support. They can provide the framework, make the data that they want accessible, and then turn it over to the community to build tools. A great example, maybe the absolute best example of this (regardless of whether you like the game or not) is what Blizzard did with Add-On support for World of Warcraft. Really quite brilliant - they empowered the community to create the tools that they wanted and the "market" has largely sorted out which ones are most widely used. Much of the functionality developed in WoW addons has then been incorporated into the base client. It's a symbiotic relationship - the community itself develops tools and sorts out what the priorities are for Blizzard to absorb into their client. I would think that approach could be just as effective for FD, if not more so given that they don't have the funding available to them that Blizzard does. If anything, I would think community engagement and assistance would be a higher priority for FD.
 
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